Weights... heavy and slow or light and fast?

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  • jacksonpt
    jacksonpt Posts: 10,413 Member
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    Ectomorph
    Mesomorph
    Endomorph

    http://www.muscleandstrength.com/articles/body-types-ectomorph-mesomorph-endomorph.html

    Happy Researching :)

    This seems like it's geared toward men.

    There is one with female body types but I can't find it again to post the link

    Do people actually subscribe to all that body type stuff?
  • JNick77
    JNick77 Posts: 3,783 Member
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    I always thought that ensuring proper form when lifting weights (thus going slow, controlling the movements) was the best way to ensure the most of the workout?

    Not necessarily. Correct form is, at it's most basic, about avoiding injury. You can often get better lifts with slightly less perfect form, but you increase the risk of injury. When form goes completely to hell, then you're likely to end up hurt AND not working muscles very effectively.

    Yeah the "go slow" thing is a popular misconception. What's of utmost importance is to control the weight and keep good form. If you do it quickly otherwise, or slowly, it doesn't matter.

    This back and forth reminds me of a guy at my gym. Only uses the machines, loads them up as heavy as possible, barely moves the weight going as fast as he can using momentum and body weight, does 1/4 reps (I've never actually seen him do ONE complete rep), has AWFUL form, then subsequently drops the entire STACK of weights. I'm waiting for the stack of plates to split down the middle one of these days.

    Yeah, people like that are friggin' ignorant and sometimes I hope they hurt themselves. The idea is still to maintain control over the eccentric portion of the lift, even pause at the bottom of it, but the explode into the concentric portion. You never lose control but going slow and steady is not the way to do it.

    If you're more into bodybuilding then you can definitely make the case, especially with isolation exercises, to have a more controlled tempo. Something like a 1 second concentric / 1 second hold / 4 second eccentric; focus on feeling the muscle.

    Is this based on any research, or is it just bro science?

    No, that is based on real experts. Look-up books by Louie Simmons, Dave Tate, Jim Wendler or any books related to Maximal Effort or Dynamic Effort training. This is not something I"m pulling out of my *kitten*.
    What? Lifting a weight you can actually handle and perform a rep correctly?

    In any of posts did I say anything about not maintaining proper form or controlling the weight? You can be explosive and still in control of the weight you're moving; fast does not equal bad form and Slow does not equal good form.
    And that business about one targeting slow twitch and the other targeting fast twitch fibers is a nice thought, but it's just not true.

    There is actually quite a bit of truth to that. Maximal strength (aka heavy) recruits more fast twitch muscle fibers than light weight and strength-endurance type lifting. This is factual, just Google it if you think I'm preaching bro-science. I forgot if this made the news or what it was published in but outside of the realm of weight lifting it was found that people with the highest developed fast twitch muscles were bed-ridding people that were obese. Not sprinters or even powerlifters. I forget exactly how it was worded. Basically it was found because they have to move so much weight just to sit up or rollover that they recruit more fast twitch muscle fibers. In short, by them moving their heavy bodyweight around recruited more fast twitch muscle fibers, or in other words lifting heavy weight.
  • ndj1979
    ndj1979 Posts: 29,136 Member
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    Have you done Les Mills Pump? I can't imagine it being a cardio workout.

    Yes I have. Lifting a light weight a zillion times is cardio in my world. Lifting a weight so heavy that I can only do 8 reps or so with good form IS what strength training IS.
    agree + 1
  • RGv2
    RGv2 Posts: 5,789 Member
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    Is this based on any research, or is it just bro science?

    No, that is based on real experts. Look-up books by Louie Simmons, Dave Tate, Jim Wendler or any books related to Maximal Effort or Dynamic Effort training. This is not something I"m pulling out of my *kitten*.
    What? Lifting a weight you can actually handle and perform a rep correctly?

    In any of posts did I say anything about not maintaining proper form or controlling the weight? You can be explosive and still in control of the weight you're moving; fast does not equal bad form and Slow does not equal good form.
    [/quote]

    I was talking to the other guy....
  • Huffdogg
    Huffdogg Posts: 1,934 Member
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    Thank you, those of you who responded politely :wink:

    Okay, so both will tone but heavy and slower will tone faster, lift til you can't life (which is more Chalene Extreme not Les Mills)... is this correct?
    [/quote



    The more correct way to look at it is that "toning" is nonexistent. You can lose fat, or you can add muscle. A combination of the two is what most people are thinking of when they talk about "tone."
  • jpolinisse
    jpolinisse Posts: 149 Member
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    If you're just looking to tone, then I believe the Les Mills class will work just fine.
  • BelleVegan77
    BelleVegan77 Posts: 70 Member
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    It is really about your goals. I work in a gym and we tell people if you are lifting fast you are using momentum not muscle. It was also suggested to me recently by a personal trainer that if you are trying to build bulk muscle then lift heavy and if you are trying to burn calories lift light. I am not a trainer mind you I just work there and talk alot lol but yeah this is the word on the street.
  • RGv2
    RGv2 Posts: 5,789 Member
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    It is really about your goals. I work in a gym and we tell people if you are lifting fast you are using momentum not muscle. It was also suggested to me recently by a personal trainer that if you are trying to build bulk muscle then lift heavy and if you are trying to burn calories lift light. I am not a trainer mind you I just work there and talk alot lol but yeah this is the word on the street.

    You won't bulk without the right building blocks (eating enough), and you won't bulk only lifting a few times a week, as many on here do. Lifting heavy while in a caloric deficit will maintain muscle mass so while in the deficit you lose mostly fat as well as gain strength. Lifting light is just cardio......
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,692 Member
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    This always confused me.

    I have Chalene Extreme workout and her moves are heavy and slow. Then there's Les Mills Pump which is light weights and more reps, faster movement.

    I enjoy both of them but which is more beneficial for toning?
    Heavy and moderate pace. Light weights with higher reps work on muscle endurance and doesn't really "tone up" the muscle like higher resistance does.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,692 Member
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    Les Mills Pump is designed to work your fast twitch muscle fibers and burn fat using a lot of reps and lighter weight.
    Incorrect. It works on muscle endurance. And fast twitch fibers are geared to anaerobic function. This ain't anaerobic training.
    CE is designed to help you build a little muscle and the slow twitch muscle fibers while burning fat and converting fat to muscle.
    It's physically IMPOSSIBLE to convert fat into muscle since they are entirely different tissues. Your information on fast/slow twitch muscles is backwards.
    Both are great for losing weight and burning fat. But for toning Pump if the better of the 2 because it doesn't let you build much but it lets you burn the fat around your existing muscle exposing your already established muscle. AKA: Toning
    This is an old myth that won't go away. One's diet is more important to a "toned" (not really a good description word since it has no definite meaning) look than relying on either program to burn off fat.
    So again it depends on where you want to take your body. Also you have to take into consideration your body type and your type does play a role in choosing your training regiment and style.
    Ectomorph
    Mesomorph
    Endomorph

    http://www.muscleandstrength.com/articles/body-types-ectomorph-mesomorph-endomorph.html

    Happy Researching :)
    Somatotyping is bogus science. It's been passed around in the fitness industry for decades now. Most don't even know that somatotyping was developed by a psychologist.
    The is a lot of misinformation out there that needs to be corrected.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
  • bizco
    bizco Posts: 1,949 Member
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    Heavy and slow; steadily increasing the amount of weight; lift to near failure.

    Using light weights isn't strength training, it's just cardio.
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,692 Member
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    Have you done Les Mills Pump? I can't imagine it being a cardio workout.
    It's a muscle endurance program. Exercises in the the 15 plus reps per set category are for muscle endurance. Not disputed by exercise science.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,692 Member
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    So lets say my specific goal right now is to just lose weight.

    That's about diet, not exercise.
    THIS. Exercise is about fitness, physical health and muscle enhancement.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
  • trojanbb
    trojanbb Posts: 1,297 Member
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    Heavy and controlled is more beneficial for everything besides endurance. Period. Not fast, not slow.. Controlled. Explosive on the positive portion can be useful as well
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,692 Member
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    I always thought that ensuring proper form when lifting weights (thus going slow, controlling the movements) was the best way to ensure the most of the workout?
    Well, almost. One could lift light weights slow and controlled with perfect form and not get any benefit at all. Form is about performing the exercise correctly. You can still do that with an up tempo pace.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
  • stillnot2late
    stillnot2late Posts: 385 Member
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    Lifting heavy weight with a steady (not fast) tempo is to build muscle. Lifting light weight for high reps is cardio. It elevates your heart rate and builds muscle endurance, not muscle size.

    a carefully constructed workout could give you a very high and sustained heart rate, and still be in an appropriate rep range to build muslce. but you'd be lifting more what most people would probably consider moderate weight rather then light weight.

    from what i've been reading recently, going lower in reps (probably 8 or less) is best for strength, but mass built more by high volume training. how heavy you are lifting is probably less important then always reaching failure regardless of rep range and altering your training frequently, including weight/rep range... when it comes to mass building

    THANKS, I was confused as to how a really good lifting routine could be a waste of time if you don't reach failure. Working muscles seems like its beneficial regardless. But no way was I going to comment on it.
  • jacksonpt
    jacksonpt Posts: 10,413 Member
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    Just to take a step back for the OP...

    Regardless of how heavy/light the weight is or how fast/slow the movement is, 2 things HAVE to happen -
    1) your form HAS to be at least decent
    2) you HAVE to control the weight

    Assuming those 2 things are happening, then it comes down to your own personal goals and what exactly constitutes heavy vs light for you. Though for most average MFPers, I'm not sure there is a huge difference either way.

    Goals are the determining factor in all this, with an honorable mention going to personal preference as it relates to long term sustainability. Goals will determine calorie intake, weight, # of reps, speed, etc.

    Goals are what matter most, but what most people on MFP ignore when giving advice. People all to often offer the same canned advice (eat more, lift more, stronglifts, etc) without understanding the person's goals. Additionally, many people don't think through their goals enough to really understand what they want. I want to look better. So? What does that really mean? I want to be healthier. Wow, can you be more vague? Take the time to think through your goals so we can give you meaningful advice.

    *hey... how did I get up on this soapbox?*
    *steps down*

    .
  • JorisSt
    JorisSt Posts: 36
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    To gain muscles fast its better to do quick intensive workouts. I read a very interesting e-book about intensive training for fast muscle growth.

    Joris S.
    musclemaximum.org
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,692 Member
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    To gain muscles fast its better to do quick intensive workouts. I read a very interesting e-book about intensive training for fast muscle growth.

    Joris S.
    musclemaximum.org
    While training fast (like sprinting) is considered more anaerobic than aerobic, to gain muscle it has to be overloaded by resistance. One could do quick pushups for a month and not gain any muscle at all because as weight goes down, the resistance does too. Muscle endurance would increase, but not muscle hypertrophy.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

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