For those asking how to run faster: just put in more miles!

Mr_Knight

Show me a world class 5K runner that does HIIT or FIRST as their primary form of training.

Doesn't exist. That's 1920s style training, nobody competitive has done that in decades.

It seems to me a lot of folks are looking for a short cut to becoming good runners - unfortunately, there isn't one. Interval-y stuff absolutely plays an important role for optimizing performance, but it is an adjunct, not a replacement.

RGv2

Show me a world class 5K runner that does HIIT or FIRST as their primary form of training.

Doesn't exist. That's 1920s style training, nobody competitive has done that in decades.

It seems to me a lot of folks are looking for a short cut to becoming good runners - unfortunately, there isn't one. Interval-y stuff absolutely plays an important role for optimizing performance, but it is an adjunct, not a replacement.

I don't think anyone is specifically pointing towards "HIIT" as the preferred "interval-y"/speed stuff. IMHO.

CarsonRuns

We're not talking strictly HIIT here. Intervals and speed work is a much wider platform than just HIIT. Intervals and hills were a large part of our training on our CC team(s). Two kids of which are world class 5kers.

Also, what many are refuting in this is the statement "for those asking how to run faster: just put in more miles", when there are more ways than just that.

Yeah, I know we are talking about many different forms of training, all which can be classified under "speed work", including hill repeats.

As for your CC team, I assume you are talking about either college or HS. I have a problem with the way many of these coaches coach their athletes. The coaches are under pressure to get the best possible times out of their athletes RIGHT NOW while not thinking about their overall, long term development. That is why their programs usually consist of 3 hard workouts per week. They have a short period of time to get the most they can out of the kids before they move on (sometimes to the next level, but oftentimes not). By putting their athletes under so much duress, the burnout and injury rates are very high compared to post collegiate when many of these athletes have the time to heal, run more easy miles to develop their aerobic systems and to race less frequently so they can maximize their performances. A HS or college athlete may be asked to double and triple at a meet, sometimes more than once per week, in order to help the team. This results in overall poorer performance, lack of recovery and potentially injury and burn out.

In reference to your refutation, yes there is more than one way to get faster. Depending upon an individuals goals, they will chose the path that is right for them. But, if someone wants to maximize their potential, following a program based on Lydiard's principles is the right way to go. It may not give you the same results as quickly, but over time, the Lydiard trained athlete will surpass the level of the interval only trained athlete, all other things being equal.

ETA: I think you'll also find that the most successful college and HS CC runners are the ones that do significant base mileage in the off season, especially the summer.

__Di__

I did my first 10K race almost a year ago. Since then, I have increased my mileage, completed a half marathon, reduced my mileage (due to work hours) and am just upping the mileage again. Today, I completed another 10K race. I improved my time by 8 minutes over the last year! I am very happy with that. Completed my 10K in 1:06:50 today when I was just hoping to hit 1:10.

WTG OP!!

I have a strong suspicion your improved times are due to the increased stamina you have gained from your longer runs.

Last year, where you would not have been able to sustain your present pace, this year is different because your have done more mileage and so increased your stamina and so can run for longer at the increased pace.

I say, if you enjoy your training and enjoy your races then your training methods are just right for you :flowerforyou:

RGv2

Yes, you need base mileage. I guess this is just pointless. I'm in the camp of interval training (not HIIT) is an important part as well. Not sure where this blanket statement of burning out came from, but good to know I was supposed to.

TBH, I didn't get burnt out on distance running until completing my 2nd marathon.

ThickMcRunFast

It's counterintuitive, but more slow miles really helped me become faster over short distances!

New(er) runners will see an improvement in speed the more they run, but they will eventually plateau. Running lots of slow miles makes one slow. To increase speed, one needs to do proper speed training (i.e. tempo runs, track workouts). If ya' wanna' run fast, ya' gotta' run fast!

Lydiard.

Interval-type training is a key ingredient for runners who have built a suitable base, but even then it is only 10-20% of overall training volume, the rest being made up by....miles and miles and more miles.

The shorter the target distance, the more ratio shifts towards intervals, but the "miles and miles" don't go away, even 100m sprinters will have a couple of 5km or longer runs a week.

I wish I had read the entire thread before I posted. This sums it up. All successful distance runners at the world class level do lots of volume at aerobic levels. Why? Because THAT is what is required to not only maintain their current fitness but also to continue to improve.

And don't' give me that "I'm not an elite, so why should I care what they do" nonsense. We are talking about physiological adaptations that have to take place to get faster, regardless of you current level of fitness and these adaptions best occur when you follow a program that is based on Lydiard's principles.

Show me a world class 5K runner that does HIIT or FIRST as their primary form of training.

All of this. I am an experienced runner, and in order to drop my marathon time, I do not up my speedwork, I up my miles.

Yes I do tempo runs, intervals, and hill training, but as someone said, that's just to sharpen what is already there. the key to getting faster was putting more miles on my legs.

CarsonRuns

Yes, you need base mileage. I guess this is just pointless. I'm in the camp of interval training (not HIIT) is an important part as well. Not sure where this blanket statement of burning out came from, but good to know I was supposed to.

TBH, I didn't get burnt out on distance running until completing my 2nd marathon.

Come on man. I did say you were supposed to burn out or that all athletes would burn out. I said the burn out rate are high. There are examples of it everywhere. I personally know a couple people that fit that description.

I don't think it's pointless, and honestly believe you are I are closer to agreeing than disagreeing. It's not pointless because there are going to be people that read this thread and it will help them decide which way they want to go with their running. It will help them to define their goals. It will help them attain them. It will spur them to do more research, for instance, to look up Lydiard to see what he was about, or to investigate FIRST. It's the exchange of unlike ideas that is though provoking and helps people to become more knowledgeable about their training and everything that is available to them.

Sorry that marathon training turned you off from distance running. I just did my 4th marathon and I am already planning numbers 5 and 6.

Peace.

smarionette

I'm not a fast runner by any stretch of the imagination. Speedwork does help me though. Like anything else "speedwork" is relative. Right now for me speedwork means "1/2 a mile at comfortable, 1/4 mile .5mph faster, 1/4 mile .5mph faster, 1/4 mile .5 mile faster, 1/4 mile .5 mile faster" then laddering it down from there using the same pattern until I hit recovery. I never go so fast I stumble, if I get to a point where I can't complete a 1/4 mile I slow down and start the downside of my ladder.

More miles helps if you are looking at besting your time at shorter race distances than your long runs, but if your long runs are a couple miles shorter than your race runs speedwork will pay dividends.

PinkNinjaLaura

As a newbie runner (started in the spring) I'm appreciating all the comments on here. I started with C25K, then did 5K-to-10K (Hal Higdon's novice program), and am trying to figure out what to do next. Would like to run a half next summer.

I don't do intervals or speed work, but I do run hills once a week. I love my hill runs. I've mostly focused on consistent pacing as I increase distance. Over the winter I'm going to have to do some treadmill running and am thinking that's a good time to incorporate speed intervals, just to keep things interesting.

RunnerElizabeth

I think the important thing is to figure out what type of training fits your running personality, goals and schedule. I'm a more, slow miles person like the op.

I ran my 3rd HM 2 weeks ago. Between HM 2 and 3, I brought my base mileage from 20 per week to 30+, increased my long runs up to 16 miles (no less then 10 miles) and ran twice as many miles in the 12 week cycle for the third as I did for the second. Guess what this did for my time? Not much. 3rd half marathon was 30 seconds faster than the second.

However, I ran a 5k 3 weeks before my 2nd half and another one yesterday 2 weeks after the 3rd half. Guess what happened to my 5k time? Shaved 1:15 off in 6 months without running a single interval or making any effort toward improving my 5k time. Granted I'm still not fast, my 5k time is now 26:52, but in June of 2012 it was 39:20, all running.

So lots of miles isn't having a dramatic distance on my long distances but it is on my short. I personally am going to add some speed work now in hopes that my hm will see some improvement too.

To the OP, congrats on your pr! Keep it up!

scottb81

. Granted I'm still not fast, my 5k time is now 26:52, but in June of 2012 it was 39:20, all running.

Your time is well above average for local races so you can consider yourself fast.

Keep putting in the miles and add some smart speed training and you will be placing in or winning your age group.

teamAmelia

Thanks. When did you start running and what was your time for your first 5K or 10K? I just hate the thought of waiting a year to get to the speed that I want to be at.

omma_to_3

Thanks. When did you start running and what was your time for your first 5K or 10K? I just hate the thought of waiting a year to get to the speed that I want to be at.

I started running a year and a half ago. My first 5K time was 44 minutes and quickly came down to under 40. My typical 5K time is still pretty slow - about 35 minutes. I am running a 5K this weekend though, and am going to try to do sub-30. It'll be a big stretch for me, but doable I think. For my 10K, my first was a year ago at 1:14 and change. That was my fastest to date until this past weekend.

teamAmelia

Thanks. When did you start running and what was your time for your first 5K or 10K? I just hate the thought of waiting a year to get to the speed that I want to be at.

I started running a year and a half ago. My first 5K time was 44 minutes and quickly came down to under 40. My typical 5K time is still pretty slow - about 35 minutes. I am running a 5K this weekend though, and am going to try to do sub-30. It'll be a big stretch for me, but doable I think. For my 10K, my first was a year ago at 1:14 and change. That was my fastest to date until this past weekend.

That's still great work! Good luck to you.

learnerdriver

I started running a year and a half ago. My first 5K time was 44 minutes and quickly came down to under 40. My typical 5K time is still pretty slow - about 35 minutes. I am running a 5K this weekend though, and am going to try to do sub-30. It'll be a big stretch for me, but doable I think. For my 10K, my first was a year ago at 1:14 and change. That was my fastest to date until this past weekend.

OP, great what you have achieved so far and good luck with your sub30!

I can't honestly tell whether its hills, increasing the distance or intervals that has improved my times and endurance, but its always great to do a PB.

astronomicals

I want to run faster but my primary goal is lifting. Adding lots of mileage will impede my recovery. Id like to accomplish an 20 minute 5K without ever running more than 7 miles at once. Point is, not everyone who wants to run faster has interest in long distances.

Thoughts?

I currently do tempo runs, interval runs, "long" comfortable SS runs, cycling cross training, and walking

meerkat70

Congrats OP on your improvement.

I'm trying to think of a nice way to say this to not negate your progress but your pace really isn't what would be considered fast. Faster than before sure, but fast, no. It might very well be time to do some interval work and hills. They have been really good for my pace after I increased my distance.

I never said I was fast. I said I was "faster". I'm a slow runner. I will always be a slow runner. Clearly people aren't thinking about all the posts from slow runners (some VERY slow) asking how to get faster. For those runners, running more will get them there. Clearly I'm not talking to people who want to be elite runners or competitive. But, in the course of a year, by increasing my mileage, I've gone from the bottom 10% in my races to the middle of the pack. I call that a success. Recommending "speed work" to runners who are currently running at a 12+ pace is irresponsible IMO and is fairly likely to lead to injuries.

Seems like a defensive tone but of course I could be reading into this wrong. This is why I said congrats on your progress OP. I think its great you've made progress but the post was a bit misleading to me when I first read it.

Speed work is great for all levels though. What your basically saying is that if people can't run a mile in a certain time than they have no business doing speed work bc they will probably could get injured. I couldn't disagree more.

Regardless, like I said, great progress.

that's simply not true. for distance runners, endurance first, speed work later is a pretty sound mantra. and the op is right

perhaps she sounds defensive because your post read like an irrelevant stealth brag? as she says, she didnt claim to be fast she pointed out that she had got faster.

incidentally in my experience real runners support others. i ran a 10k year before last. i came stone last. as i was struggling up a nightmare hill at the end of the race, one of the winners came back to me and ran up with me, encouraging me to keep going. this young, fit bloke had nothing but support for me, and when i crossed the line he encouraged be to keep at it, told me what an achievement it was, and that with time and miles, my speed would get better. that is the kind of attitude i've come to expect from the running community.

the op is celebrating her achievement in this thread.

meerkat70

I want to run faster but my primary goal is lifting. Adding lots of mileage will impede my recovery. Id like to accomplish an 20 minute 5K without ever running more than 7 miles at once. Point is, not everyone who wants to run faster has interest in long distances.

Thoughts?

I currently do tempo runs, interval runs, "long" comfortable SS runs, cycling cross training, and walking

i think your distance (6m) is sufficient to see improvement. what are your weekly base miles?

getting a 5k under 20 is ambitious. what is your current pace for that distance?

are you doing fartleks and hills already? if not and if you feel your endurance is there, try adding them in gradually to one run a week.

you will also speed up as pounds come off.

jenilla1

It's counterintuitive, but more slow miles really helped me become faster over short distances!

New(er) runners will see an improvement in speed the more they run, but they will eventually plateau. Running lots of slow miles makes one slow. To increase speed, one needs to do proper speed training (i.e. tempo runs, track workouts). If ya' wanna' run fast, ya' gotta' run fast!

Agreed. More miles will generally only make newer runners faster. But it will plateau at some point. Old runners like me don't get faster with increased miles. I plateaued for years until I started HIIT training. Now THAT will make you faster! It made a massive difference in my times. :drinker:

ETA: After reading more comments I see that there seems to be a heated debate about what makes you faster. I guess it's different for everyone. I can only speak from my own personal experience. I've been a distance runner for almost 25 years. Running more and more miles never made me faster. It just gave me more stamina and the ability to maintain a pace for longer distances. Intervals are the only change I've made that increased my speed dramatically - I shaved over an hour off my marathon time in one season's training.

astronomicals

I want to run faster but my primary goal is lifting. Adding lots of mileage will impede my recovery. Id like to accomplish an 20 minute 5K without ever running more than 7 miles at once. Point is, not everyone who wants to run faster has interest in long distances.

Thoughts?

I currently do tempo runs, interval runs, "long" comfortable SS runs, cycling cross training, and walking

i think your distance (6m) is sufficient to see improvement. what are your weekly base miles?

getting a 5k under 20 is ambitious. what is your current pace for that distance?

are you doing fartleks and hills already? if not and if you feel your endurance is there, try adding them in gradually to one run a week.

you will also speed up as pounds come off.

27minute 5K.... ~12 miles a week (~2.5, ~3.5. ~6) not including a lot of brisk walking. 10-15 miles of walking 2-3 miles at a time. Surely I could run more but not with three full body workouts.

Fartleks when I do outdoor intervals cuz I dont want to watch a clock. No hill work yet (besides a few hills on outdoor runs).

rybo

I want to run faster but my primary goal is lifting. Adding lots of mileage will impede my recovery. Id like to accomplish an 20 minute 5K without ever running more than 7 miles at once. Point is, not everyone who wants to run faster has interest in long distances.

Thoughts?

I currently do tempo runs, interval runs, "long" comfortable SS runs, cycling cross training, and walking

i think your distance (6m) is sufficient to see improvement. what are your weekly base miles?

getting a 5k under 20 is ambitious. what is your current pace for that distance?

are you doing fartleks and hills already? if not and if you feel your endurance is there, try adding them in gradually to one run a week.

you will also speed up as pounds come off.

27minute 5K.... ~12 miles a week (~2.5, ~3.5. ~6) not including a lot of brisk walking. 10-15 miles of walking 2-3 miles at a time. Surely I could run more but not with three full body workouts.

Fartleks when I do outdoor intervals cuz I dont want to watch a clock. No hill work yet (besides a few hills on outdoor runs).

Dropping 7 minutes off your 5k to go sub 20 on 12 miles a week is not going to happen.

omma_to_3

incidentally in my experience real runners support others. i ran a 10k year before last. i came stone last. as i was struggling up a nightmare hill at the end of the race, one of the winners came back to me and ran up with me, encouraging me to keep going. this young, fit bloke had nothing but support for me, and when i crossed the line he encouraged be to keep at it, told me what an achievement it was, and that with time and miles, my speed would get better. that is the kind of attitude i've come to expect from the running community.

What a great story! I have had tons of support from people too. I always feared being looked down on because I'm old and slow (and when I started, way out of shape) but for the most part, people have been incredibly supportive.

I absolutely love the Girls on the Run program. My daughter has been doing it for a year or so and loves it. Their races are great too - not timed, fun atmosphere, and "Wonder Girl" is always the last to cross the finish line so none of the girls have to be "last".

teamAmelia

incidentally in my experience real runners support others. i ran a 10k year before last. i came stone last. as i was struggling up a nightmare hill at the end of the race, one of the winners came back to me and ran up with me, encouraging me to keep going. this young, fit bloke had nothing but support for me, and when i crossed the line he encouraged be to keep at it, told me what an achievement it was, and that with time and miles, my speed would get better. that is the kind of attitude i've come to expect from the running community.

delicious_cocktail

bad advice.

CarsonRuns

I want to run faster but my primary goal is lifting. Adding lots of mileage will impede my recovery. Id like to accomplish an 20 minute 5K without ever running more than 7 miles at once. Point is, not everyone who wants to run faster has interest in long distances.

Thoughts?

I currently do tempo runs, interval runs, "long" comfortable SS runs, cycling cross training, and walking

i think your distance (6m) is sufficient to see improvement. what are your weekly base miles?

getting a 5k under 20 is ambitious. what is your current pace for that distance?

are you doing fartleks and hills already? if not and if you feel your endurance is there, try adding them in gradually to one run a week.

you will also speed up as pounds come off.

27minute 5K.... ~12 miles a week (~2.5, ~3.5. ~6) not including a lot of brisk walking. 10-15 miles of walking 2-3 miles at a time. Surely I could run more but not with three full body workouts.

Fartleks when I do outdoor intervals cuz I dont want to watch a clock. No hill work yet (besides a few hills on outdoor runs).

Dropping 7 minutes off your 5k to go sub 20 on 12 miles a week is not going to happen.

Nope. I wasn't able to get to sub 20 until I trained for my second marathon. I peaked at around 70 miles per week for that one and 2 months later ran 19:50.That was a 21 second PR, which is huge for the 5K when you start to get down into the low 20s. That was on doing nothing but easy running, strides, LT runs and some MP runs. Not a single bit of hill repeats (but I do almost all of my easy runs on hilly routes), or interval work.

CarsonRuns

bad advice.

Care to elaborate?

CarsonRuns

Agreed. More miles will generally only make newer runners faster. But it will plateau at some point. Old runners like me don't get faster with increased miles. I plateaued for years until I started HIIT training. Now THAT will make you faster! It made a massive difference in my times. :drinker:

ETA: After reading more comments I see that there seems to be a heated debate about what makes you faster. I guess it's different for everyone. I can only speak from my own personal experience. I've been a distance runner for almost 25 years. Running more and more miles never made me faster. It just gave me more stamina and the ability to maintain a pace for longer distances. Intervals are the only change I've made that increased my speed dramatically - I shaved over an hour off my marathon time in one season's training.

This has me curious. I'd like to get a little more information about what you training looked like. For instance,

How many miles per week were you running when marathon training?
How many miles per week were you running when not marathon training?
What was your marathon PR before you bested it by an hour?
How much time passed between those two marathons?
Did you do any LT or MP pace running during your marathon training cycles?

Lyerin

Congrats, OP, on your new PR!

I am doing one of the plans from the Train Like a Mother book right now, which I am really enjoying. There is some "baby steps" speedwork in the plan, which has been great for getting me introduced to the concept and the feel of it. I have noticed that I'm able to go faster over shorter distances now (last night for example, I was able to run 10-10:30 miles whereas before I was 11-12 minute miles). I will say though that even if I never ever ever went faster, I really like going farther on my runs. I think for me to reach that point of stillness and clarity I need to go more than 3-5 miles at a time.

I'm gradually building my base right now so that I can train for a half marathon (mostly because I like having a training plan to tell me what to do).

LeanButNotMean44

It's counterintuitive, but more slow miles really helped me become faster over short distances!

New(er) runners will see an improvement in speed the more they run, but they will eventually plateau. Running lots of slow miles makes one slow. To increase speed, one needs to do proper speed training (i.e. tempo runs, track workouts). If ya' wanna' run fast, ya' gotta' run fast!

Agreed. More miles will generally only make newer runners faster. But it will plateau at some point. Old runners like me don't get faster with increased miles. I plateaued for years until I started HIIT training. Now THAT will make you faster! It made a massive difference in my times. :drinker:

ETA: After reading more comments I see that there seems to be a heated debate about what makes you faster. I guess it's different for everyone. I can only speak from my own personal experience. I've been a distance runner for almost 25 years. Running more and more miles never made me faster. It just gave me more stamina and the ability to maintain a pace for longer distances. Intervals are the only change I've made that increased my speed dramatically - I shaved over an hour off my marathon time in one season's training.

I've been running for about 20 years, so not quite as long as you, and had the same experience regarding my speed. Once I stopped doing speed work and focused on longer distances (50 mile ultras), I got slower due to the nature of endurance running.