For those asking how to run faster: just put in more miles!
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I'll have to respectfully disagree with this statement about speed work not being for slower runners. My running club has us doing speed work once a week. The workouts are adjusted for the different levels of runners we have. Speed work isn't meant to be easy it kills you no matter what level you're at. People do train differently so be careful with those definitive statements about running.0
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Congrats OP on your improvement.
I'm trying to think of a nice way to say this to not negate your progress but your pace really isn't what would be considered fast. Faster than before sure, but fast, no. It might very well be time to do some interval work and hills. They have been really good for my pace after I increased my distance.
I never said I was fast. I said I was "faster". I'm a slow runner. I will always be a slow runner. Clearly people aren't thinking about all the posts from slow runners (some VERY slow) asking how to get faster. For those runners, running more will get them there. Clearly I'm not talking to people who want to be elite runners or competitive. But, in the course of a year, by increasing my mileage, I've gone from the bottom 10% in my races to the middle of the pack. I call that a success. Recommending "speed work" to runners who are currently running at a 12+ pace is irresponsible IMO and is fairly likely to lead to injuries.
Seems like a defensive tone but of course I could be reading into this wrong. This is why I said congrats on your progress OP. I think its great you've made progress but the post was a bit misleading to me when I first read it.
Speed work is great for all levels though. What your basically saying is that if people can't run a mile in a certain time than they have no business doing speed work bc they will probably could get injured. I couldn't disagree more.
Regardless, like I said, great progress.
You're putting both tone and words into my mouth. I was confused why you felt the need to tell me I'm not fast. I never said I was. I also never said this is how you become "fast". It's all relative and faster is faster, regardless of whether something thinks it's actually "fast".
And, I never said anyone 'has no business doing speed work'. I said it's not where someone should start when they're a low mileage/slow speed runner - maybe that wasn't clear. I'm basing this not just on my experience (speed work damn near killed me a year ago when I tried it), but on the advice of countless very experienced runners I've talked to on this forum and elsewhere.
See previous post where I said I thought your post was misleading in the context on why you feel confused I said your pace was not fast.
Also, speed work closely mimics hiit which is done by all groups of fitness enthusiast to improve cardio conditioning. It is not specific to runners nor would the likelihood of injury be any greater than telling someone to add miles. You are basically telling someone who you consider slow that its not a good idea to ever move above their 75% max bc they might hurt themselves.0 -
I'll have to respectfully disagree with this statement about speed work not being for slower runners. My running club has us doing speed work once a week. The workouts are adjusted for the different levels of runners we have. Speed work isn't meant to be easy it kills you no matter what level you're at. People do train differently so be careful with those definitive statements about running.
THIS.
Runners of all levels and paces benefit from speed work. Those who have been running a short time (i.e. such as the OP) will experience "newbie gains". Without speed work, you WILL eventually plateau. I have been running for almost 20 years and have witnessed this time and time again.0 -
Oh, and OP - congrats on the new PR at your 10k! Speed is all relative. Unless you are the WR holder, there is always someone faster. :flowerforyou:0
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Great job, OP!I'll have to respectfully disagree with this statement about speed work not being for slower runners. My running club has us doing speed work once a week. The workouts are adjusted for the different levels of runners we have. Speed work isn't meant to be easy it kills you no matter what level you're at. People do train differently so be careful with those definitive statements about running.
My running group does this too. Along with longer distances, hills and trail runs, all with the goal to increase speed. When I started running in June, I was struggling to run 2mi at a 14 minute pace. Now I can easily run 6mi at a 12 minute pace. I'm not "fast" but I'm getting there.
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It's counterintuitive, but more slow miles really helped me become faster over short distances!
New(er) runners will see an improvement in speed the more they run, but they will eventually plateau. Running lots of slow miles makes one slow. To increase speed, one needs to do proper speed training (i.e. tempo runs, track workouts). If ya' wanna' run fast, ya' gotta' run fast!
Lydiard.
Interval-type training is a key ingredient for runners who have built a suitable base, but even then it is only 10-20% of overall training volume, the rest being made up by....miles and miles and more miles.
The shorter the target distance, the more ratio shifts towards intervals, but the "miles and miles" don't go away, even 100m sprinters will have a couple of 5km or longer runs a week.0 -
Wow, tough crowd.
Congrats OP! Keep on running!0 -
It's counterintuitive, but more slow miles really helped me become faster over short distances!
New(er) runners will see an improvement in speed the more they run, but they will eventually plateau. Running lots of slow miles makes one slow. To increase speed, one needs to do proper speed training (i.e. tempo runs, track workouts). If ya' wanna' run fast, ya' gotta' run fast!
Not entirely true. Even experienced runners need to log aerobic (slow) miles as races from 800m and up are 92% or more aerobic. Speed work is for honing what is already there. You get a couple seconds per mile from doing speed work. You get much more than that by doing aerobic work.0 -
It's counterintuitive, but more slow miles really helped me become faster over short distances!
New(er) runners will see an improvement in speed the more they run, but they will eventually plateau. Running lots of slow miles makes one slow. To increase speed, one needs to do proper speed training (i.e. tempo runs, track workouts). If ya' wanna' run fast, ya' gotta' run fast!
Lydiard.
Interval-type training is a key ingredient for runners who have built a suitable base, but even then it is only 10-20% of overall training volume, the rest being made up by....miles and miles and more miles.
The shorter the target distance, the more ratio shifts towards intervals, but the "miles and miles" don't go away, even 100m sprinters will have a couple of 5km or longer runs a week.
I wish I had read the entire thread before I posted. This sums it up. All successful distance runners at the world class level do lots of volume at aerobic levels. Why? Because THAT is what is required to not only maintain their current fitness but also to continue to improve.
And don't' give me that "I'm not an elite, so why should I care what they do" nonsense. We are talking about physiological adaptations that have to take place to get faster, regardless of you current level of fitness and these adaptions best occur when you follow a program that is based on Lydiard's principles.
Show me a world class 5K runner that does HIIT or FIRST as their primary form of training.0 -
It's counterintuitive, but more slow miles really helped me become faster over short distances!
New(er) runners will see an improvement in speed the more they run, but they will eventually plateau. Running lots of slow miles makes one slow. To increase speed, one needs to do proper speed training (i.e. tempo runs, track workouts). If ya' wanna' run fast, ya' gotta' run fast!
Lydiard.
Interval-type training is a key ingredient for runners who have built a suitable base, but even then it is only 10-20% of overall training volume, the rest being made up by....miles and miles and more miles.
The shorter the target distance, the more ratio shifts towards intervals, but the "miles and miles" don't go away, even 100m sprinters will have a couple of 5km or longer runs a week.
I wish I had read the entire thread before I posted. This sums it up. All successful distance runners at the world class level do lots of volume at aerobic levels. Why? Because THAT is what is required to not only maintain their current fitness but also to continue to improve.
And don't' give me that "I'm not an elite, so why should I care what they do" nonsense. We are talking about physiological adaptations that have to take place to get faster, regardless of you current level of fitness and these adaptions best occur when you follow a program that is based on Lydiard's principles.
Show me a world class 5K runner that does HIIT or FIRST as their primary form of training.
We're not talking strictly HIIT here. Intervals and speed work is a much wider platform than just HIIT. Intervals and hills were a large part of our training on our CC team(s). Two kids of which are world class 5kers.
Also, what many are refuting in this is the statement "for those asking how to run faster: just put in more miles", when there are more ways than just that.0 -
Show me a world class 5K runner that does HIIT or FIRST as their primary form of training.
Doesn't exist. That's 1920s style training, nobody competitive has done that in decades.
It seems to me a lot of folks are looking for a short cut to becoming good runners - unfortunately, there isn't one. Interval-y stuff absolutely plays an important role for optimizing performance, but it is an adjunct, not a replacement.0 -
Show me a world class 5K runner that does HIIT or FIRST as their primary form of training.
Doesn't exist. That's 1920s style training, nobody competitive has done that in decades.
It seems to me a lot of folks are looking for a short cut to becoming good runners - unfortunately, there isn't one. Interval-y stuff absolutely plays an important role for optimizing performance, but it is an adjunct, not a replacement.
I don't think anyone is specifically pointing towards "HIIT" as the preferred "interval-y"/speed stuff. IMHO.0 -
We're not talking strictly HIIT here. Intervals and speed work is a much wider platform than just HIIT. Intervals and hills were a large part of our training on our CC team(s). Two kids of which are world class 5kers.
Also, what many are refuting in this is the statement "for those asking how to run faster: just put in more miles", when there are more ways than just that.
Yeah, I know we are talking about many different forms of training, all which can be classified under "speed work", including hill repeats.
As for your CC team, I assume you are talking about either college or HS. I have a problem with the way many of these coaches coach their athletes. The coaches are under pressure to get the best possible times out of their athletes RIGHT NOW while not thinking about their overall, long term development. That is why their programs usually consist of 3 hard workouts per week. They have a short period of time to get the most they can out of the kids before they move on (sometimes to the next level, but oftentimes not). By putting their athletes under so much duress, the burnout and injury rates are very high compared to post collegiate when many of these athletes have the time to heal, run more easy miles to develop their aerobic systems and to race less frequently so they can maximize their performances. A HS or college athlete may be asked to double and triple at a meet, sometimes more than once per week, in order to help the team. This results in overall poorer performance, lack of recovery and potentially injury and burn out.
In reference to your refutation, yes there is more than one way to get faster. Depending upon an individuals goals, they will chose the path that is right for them. But, if someone wants to maximize their potential, following a program based on Lydiard's principles is the right way to go. It may not give you the same results as quickly, but over time, the Lydiard trained athlete will surpass the level of the interval only trained athlete, all other things being equal.
ETA: I think you'll also find that the most successful college and HS CC runners are the ones that do significant base mileage in the off season, especially the summer.0 -
I did my first 10K race almost a year ago. Since then, I have increased my mileage, completed a half marathon, reduced my mileage (due to work hours) and am just upping the mileage again. Today, I completed another 10K race. I improved my time by 8 minutes over the last year! I am very happy with that. Completed my 10K in 1:06:50 today when I was just hoping to hit 1:10.
WTG OP!!
I have a strong suspicion your improved times are due to the increased stamina you have gained from your longer runs.
Last year, where you would not have been able to sustain your present pace, this year is different because your have done more mileage and so increased your stamina and so can run for longer at the increased pace.
I say, if you enjoy your training and enjoy your races then your training methods are just right for you :flowerforyou:0 -
Yes, you need base mileage. I guess this is just pointless. I'm in the camp of interval training (not HIIT) is an important part as well. Not sure where this blanket statement of burning out came from, but good to know I was supposed to.
TBH, I didn't get burnt out on distance running until completing my 2nd marathon.0 -
It's counterintuitive, but more slow miles really helped me become faster over short distances!
New(er) runners will see an improvement in speed the more they run, but they will eventually plateau. Running lots of slow miles makes one slow. To increase speed, one needs to do proper speed training (i.e. tempo runs, track workouts). If ya' wanna' run fast, ya' gotta' run fast!
Lydiard.
Interval-type training is a key ingredient for runners who have built a suitable base, but even then it is only 10-20% of overall training volume, the rest being made up by....miles and miles and more miles.
The shorter the target distance, the more ratio shifts towards intervals, but the "miles and miles" don't go away, even 100m sprinters will have a couple of 5km or longer runs a week.
I wish I had read the entire thread before I posted. This sums it up. All successful distance runners at the world class level do lots of volume at aerobic levels. Why? Because THAT is what is required to not only maintain their current fitness but also to continue to improve.
And don't' give me that "I'm not an elite, so why should I care what they do" nonsense. We are talking about physiological adaptations that have to take place to get faster, regardless of you current level of fitness and these adaptions best occur when you follow a program that is based on Lydiard's principles.
Show me a world class 5K runner that does HIIT or FIRST as their primary form of training.
All of this. I am an experienced runner, and in order to drop my marathon time, I do not up my speedwork, I up my miles.
Yes I do tempo runs, intervals, and hill training, but as someone said, that's just to sharpen what is already there. the key to getting faster was putting more miles on my legs.0 -
Yes, you need base mileage. I guess this is just pointless. I'm in the camp of interval training (not HIIT) is an important part as well. Not sure where this blanket statement of burning out came from, but good to know I was supposed to.
TBH, I didn't get burnt out on distance running until completing my 2nd marathon.
Come on man. I did say you were supposed to burn out or that all athletes would burn out. I said the burn out rate are high. There are examples of it everywhere. I personally know a couple people that fit that description.
I don't think it's pointless, and honestly believe you are I are closer to agreeing than disagreeing. It's not pointless because there are going to be people that read this thread and it will help them decide which way they want to go with their running. It will help them to define their goals. It will help them attain them. It will spur them to do more research, for instance, to look up Lydiard to see what he was about, or to investigate FIRST. It's the exchange of unlike ideas that is though provoking and helps people to become more knowledgeable about their training and everything that is available to them.
Sorry that marathon training turned you off from distance running. I just did my 4th marathon and I am already planning numbers 5 and 6.
Peace.0 -
I'm not a fast runner by any stretch of the imagination. Speedwork does help me though. Like anything else "speedwork" is relative. Right now for me speedwork means "1/2 a mile at comfortable, 1/4 mile .5mph faster, 1/4 mile .5mph faster, 1/4 mile .5 mile faster, 1/4 mile .5 mile faster" then laddering it down from there using the same pattern until I hit recovery. I never go so fast I stumble, if I get to a point where I can't complete a 1/4 mile I slow down and start the downside of my ladder.
More miles helps if you are looking at besting your time at shorter race distances than your long runs, but if your long runs are a couple miles shorter than your race runs speedwork will pay dividends.0 -
As a newbie runner (started in the spring) I'm appreciating all the comments on here. I started with C25K, then did 5K-to-10K (Hal Higdon's novice program), and am trying to figure out what to do next. Would like to run a half next summer.
I don't do intervals or speed work, but I do run hills once a week. I love my hill runs. I've mostly focused on consistent pacing as I increase distance. Over the winter I'm going to have to do some treadmill running and am thinking that's a good time to incorporate speed intervals, just to keep things interesting.0 -
I think the important thing is to figure out what type of training fits your running personality, goals and schedule. I'm a more, slow miles person like the op.
I ran my 3rd HM 2 weeks ago. Between HM 2 and 3, I brought my base mileage from 20 per week to 30+, increased my long runs up to 16 miles (no less then 10 miles) and ran twice as many miles in the 12 week cycle for the third as I did for the second. Guess what this did for my time? Not much. 3rd half marathon was 30 seconds faster than the second.
However, I ran a 5k 3 weeks before my 2nd half and another one yesterday 2 weeks after the 3rd half. Guess what happened to my 5k time? Shaved 1:15 off in 6 months without running a single interval or making any effort toward improving my 5k time. Granted I'm still not fast, my 5k time is now 26:52, but in June of 2012 it was 39:20, all running.
So lots of miles isn't having a dramatic distance on my long distances but it is on my short. I personally am going to add some speed work now in hopes that my hm will see some improvement too.
To the OP, congrats on your pr! Keep it up!0
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