Why does everyone here recommend strength based programs?

BarackMeLikeAHurricane

Bump.

Never heard of SS. I'll be looking that up later. I'm looking for something to help me gain strength, tone and keep the weight down. I love to lift and I lift heavy (heavy to me) 3-4 times a week but I also run and do combat, zumba, turbo kick, play sports and swim.. i don't want big muscles, I really want the athletic build and cut tummy. And I'd love to skip out on turbo kick more often. but I always feel like i'm losing what I did.

Will SS help that?

If your diet's in check. There are no magic bullets

^^^This, and you're not going to get big muscles. As a female it is really hard for you to pack on muscle mass. That usually consist of the right diet of taking in a caloric surplus, spending hours in the gym, and usually taking something not sold to the public in stores.

I escaped Auschwitz in a matter of months on a split while natty. Earlier this year I was almost hospitalized for an "eating disorder" and now people tell me I'm "gross" and "manly."

My main problem with SS is that it doesn't have nearly enough upper body work. I know I'm still in curl bro mode but I'd take it any day over t rex mode. Upper body should be trained like twice as much as legs. I still do my squats, dead lifts, and various leg isolation but upper body needs more work. Especially for women, since they tend to lack upper body strength AND size.

Starting strength is meant for high school boys that want to get strong to play football. For them SS + GOMAD is fine, but SS isn't really meant to be done on a deficit. SS + extra accessory work + deficit is fine, but people should make the most of their newbie gains.

danimalkeys

" even though I've only been lifting a year and I'm definitely not the strongest. I'm sure there are even plenty of women on here that are way stronger but smaller than me.

I wanted to revisit this- if you've only been lifting a year, you are still making newbie gains. You could do pretty much ANY program and make gains in both size and strength. SS/SL would have worked just as good, if not better, than a BB type split. At some point your gains in both strength and size will slow dramatically. I remember spending a year trying to put 5-10lbs on a lift, busting butt in the gym, eating right, all that. At a point you reach your natural limit. It might take a year, it might take 5, but after you see your gains slow, then you need to evaluate your program and diet and adapt to continue to make gains, whether its strength or size.

I also think that SS/SL is not just a program for HS football players, that's discounting it's merits by a good margin. It is a foundation program that builds a solid base of form, technique, and strength that transfers over to many different styles of training, whether it's sports specific or asthetic/BB type training.

Chevy_Quest

@danimalkeys - Well said and very balanced!

It is a foundation program that builds a solid base of form, technique, and strength that transfers over to many different styles of training, whether it's sports specific or asthetic/BB type training

BarackMeLikeAHurricane

" even though I've only been lifting a year and I'm definitely not the strongest. I'm sure there are even plenty of women on here that are way stronger but smaller than me.

I wanted to revisit this- if you've only been lifting a year, you are still making newbie gains. You could do pretty much ANY program and make gains in both size and strength. SS/SL would have worked just as good, if not better, than a BB type split. At some point your gains in both strength and size will slow dramatically. I remember spending a year trying to put 5-10lbs on a lift, busting butt in the gym, eating right, all that. At a point you reach your natural limit. It might take a year, it might take 5, but after you see your gains slow, then you need to evaluate your program and diet and adapt to continue to make gains, whether its strength or size.

I also think that SS/SL is not just a program for HS football players, that's discounting it's merits by a good margin. It is a foundation program that builds a solid base of form, technique, and strength that transfers over to many different styles of training, whether it's sports specific or asthetic/BB type training.

I started with strength based and saw a large improvement in my strength but very little size gains. After a month on a split I didn't even look like the same person. I saw much faster gains.

jimmmer

" even though I've only been lifting a year and I'm definitely not the strongest. I'm sure there are even plenty of women on here that are way stronger but smaller than me.

I wanted to revisit this- if you've only been lifting a year, you are still making newbie gains. You could do pretty much ANY program and make gains in both size and strength. SS/SL would have worked just as good, if not better, than a BB type split. At some point your gains in both strength and size will slow dramatically. I remember spending a year trying to put 5-10lbs on a lift, busting butt in the gym, eating right, all that. At a point you reach your natural limit. It might take a year, it might take 5, but after you see your gains slow, then you need to evaluate your program and diet and adapt to continue to make gains, whether its strength or size.

I also think that SS/SL is not just a program for HS football players, that's discounting it's merits by a good margin. It is a foundation program that builds a solid base of form, technique, and strength that transfers over to many different styles of training, whether it's sports specific or asthetic/BB type training.

I started with strength based and saw a large improvement in my strength but very little size gains. After a month on a split I didn't even look like the same person. I saw much faster gains.

But you'd already built up a base of strength to reap the rewards of your split.

Would your gains have been ready to take off if you hadn't been primed and ready to go from the strength training?

koing

" even though I've only been lifting a year and I'm definitely not the strongest. I'm sure there are even plenty of women on here that are way stronger but smaller than me.

I wanted to revisit this- if you've only been lifting a year, you are still making newbie gains. You could do pretty much ANY program and make gains in both size and strength. SS/SL would have worked just as good, if not better, than a BB type split. At some point your gains in both strength and size will slow dramatically. I remember spending a year trying to put 5-10lbs on a lift, busting butt in the gym, eating right, all that. At a point you reach your natural limit. It might take a year, it might take 5, but after you see your gains slow, then you need to evaluate your program and diet and adapt to continue to make gains, whether its strength or size.

I also think that SS/SL is not just a program for HS football players, that's discounting it's merits by a good margin. It is a foundation program that builds a solid base of form, technique, and strength that transfers over to many different styles of training, whether it's sports specific or asthetic/BB type training.

I started with strength based and saw a large improvement in my strength but very little size gains. After a month on a split I didn't even look like the same person. I saw much faster gains.

But you'd already built up a base of strength to reap the rewards of your split.

Would your gains have been ready to take off if you hadn't been primed and ready to go from the strength training?

indeed.

Size is also largely dependent on what you are eating.

It doesn't matter how good your programme is, if you aren't eating and resting properly you won't get the results you want.

I will admit some people do respond differently to different training programmes and you have to try both and see what works for you.

When you were on SS did you progress your weights and how long had you done the programme for?

Koing

phatguerilla

" even though I've only been lifting a year and I'm definitely not the strongest. I'm sure there are even plenty of women on here that are way stronger but smaller than me.

I wanted to revisit this- if you've only been lifting a year, you are still making newbie gains. You could do pretty much ANY program and make gains in both size and strength. SS/SL would have worked just as good, if not better, than a BB type split. At some point your gains in both strength and size will slow dramatically. I remember spending a year trying to put 5-10lbs on a lift, busting butt in the gym, eating right, all that. At a point you reach your natural limit. It might take a year, it might take 5, but after you see your gains slow, then you need to evaluate your program and diet and adapt to continue to make gains, whether its strength or size.

I also think that SS/SL is not just a program for HS football players, that's discounting it's merits by a good margin. It is a foundation program that builds a solid base of form, technique, and strength that transfers over to many different styles of training, whether it's sports specific or asthetic/BB type training.

I started with strength based and saw a large improvement in my strength but very little size gains. After a month on a split I didn't even look like the same person. I saw much faster gains.

But you'd already built up a base of strength to reap the rewards of your split.

Would your gains have been ready to take off if you hadn't been primed and ready to go from the strength training?

This idea of doing SS or similar to 'prime' your body for size gains is just as much broscience as the bro-iest of splits. A well designed split can increase strength and size just as well as SS can, especially if well chosen isolation exercises help improve strength on compounds.

danimalkeys

I think the main idea is that as a newbie lifter, just about any program will give you gains in both strength and size, especially if you are eating to fuel that.

bmqbonnie

Subbing. I've done a bit of both and am kind of at a loss as to what I should be doing, but saying that strength is better while on a deficit makes some sense. Perhaps the split is best left to maintenance.

mheebner

Subbing. I've done a bit of both and am kind of at a loss as to what I should be doing, but saying that strength is better while on a deficit makes some sense. Perhaps the split is best left to maintenance.

This is actually an EXCELLENT point. Most people get into programs while on a deficit to preserve LBM while exercising and working out. Getting into the typical isolation lifting and split routines are going to work better eating at a surplus, and maybe maintenance as well again if that's the direction you want to head in.

jimmmer

This idea of doing SS or similar to 'prime' your body for size gains is just as much broscience as the bro-iest of splits. A well designed split can increase strength and size just as well as SS can, especially if well chosen isolation exercises help improve strength on compounds.

But a full-body three times a week routine will build strength faster in an untrained individual because you'll be progressing everything faster than you would on a split.

When you've got things up to speed then you can jump on a "well designed split" that is more appropriate to your lifting experience and strength.

Surely, the whole idea of a split is to provide the maximum amount of recovery per whatever you're splitting, so a more experienced trainee can hammer something harder than they could as a beginner and still get the recovery they need before they get back around to working it again.

What's bro-sciency about getting yourself stronger using the fastest possible method?

FrnkLft

Can someone define "bro split" for me? I've always known that to be a 5-day split hitting everything once a week, right?

Also, the more you can lift (strength), the heavier you can go on your hypertophy work (high reps).

Also-also, strength programs are the most basic and uncontroversial programs around. Referring a beginner to a pure hypertrophy program is like throwing them to the wolves. So much bull**** and complication out there that they really don't need to worry about right now.

phatguerilla

This idea of doing SS or similar to 'prime' your body for size gains is just as much broscience as the bro-iest of splits. A well designed split can increase strength and size just as well as SS can, especially if well chosen isolation exercises help improve strength on compounds.

But a full-body three times a week routine will build strength faster in an untrained individual because you'll be progressing everything faster than you would on a split.

When you've got things up to speed then you can jump on a "well designed split" that is more appropriate to your lifting experience and strength.

Surely, the whole idea of a split is to provide the maximum amount of recovery per whatever you're splitting, so a more experienced trainee can hammer something harder than they could as a beginner and still get the recovery they need before they get back around to working it again.

What's bro-sciency about getting yourself stronger using the fastest possible method?

Starting strength/stronglifts that focus solely on the 'big' compound lifts tend to ignore certain muscles unless a person is a particular build. While in theory a oh pressing and benching should be enough for pecs shoulders and triceps this isn't the case for many, perhaps most individuals. Same with upper back or hamstrings. They end up stalling on this program because a lack of isolation lifts limits their strength capacity.

In addition many people here are pointing to a full body strength programme as being better on a deficit than a split - why would a programme designed to maximise noob gains and which requires full body recovery be much better on a deficit than a program that allows for localised, periodised recovery?

The answer on this board is always ss/sl, no matter what the problem is. One guy started a thread saying his legs weren't growing from squats and was told to squat more. There's more to it than that as the OP has demonstrated.

Myhaloslipped

Even 4chan has moved away from telling everyone to do SS and call it a day. Most people here want aesthetics more than strength. I've seen much better results on a "bro split" than I ever did on a strength based program. I don't lift heavy. The heaviest I ever go is lmao2plate!!!1! and half the time I don't go heavier than 185 on any lift. I do my compounds and then a million different isolation exercises. Training for strength is great... if your goal is strength. I've been training my little brother the way I train (he's a 16 year old boy) and he's been packing on mass very quickly. I just feel like a lot of people are getting trolled out of decent gains by being told to do strength based programs.
/rant

If you use /fit/ as a resource for information you're going to have a bad time.

I don't want to have a bad time.

tedrickp

The answer on this board is always ss/sl, no matter what the problem is. One guy started a thread saying his legs weren't growing from squats and was told to squat more. There's more to it than that as the OP has demonstrated.

Well one thing I mentioned earlier - in a caloric deficit no one is going to make their legs or any part of their body bigger (outside of the factors we all know - noobie gains, very obese, muscle memory) so that is why SS/SL (and others) are often recommended here - because they will do a great job of allowing you to retain LBM, plus it is simple and "easy".

So no surprise on a site where majority of people are trying to lose weight (aka in a caloric deficit) that strength routines are more often recommended.

That said I agree with your sentiment - the OP has different goals - so a body building split makes sense for her - especially for a women because quite often they do have to work the upper party harder than the lower.

I would assume (total guess since it is new) that the "maintaining" and "gaining weight" forums would be more body building split friendly. Just a hunch.

smittybuilt19

Bump