Make a heavy lifting routine for a beginner?
Replies
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I'd tend to agree that 5x5 is a better beginner program than 5/3/1. With 5/3/1 you have to figure out what you'll use for assistance, weights to use on that, etc. 5x5 is simple and laid out right in front of you for easy progression.
^^yep.
And as an FYI, Wendler recommends doing a 5 x 5 for beginners in Beyond 5/3/1.
Yes he does, but his version is completely different that SL5x5 and more in line with what is found in 5/3/1. He also discusses adding in "joker sets" for beginners which is not something you get in SL5x5.0 -
I'd tend to agree that 5x5 is a better beginner program than 5/3/1. With 5/3/1 you have to figure out what you'll use for assistance, weights to use on that, etc. 5x5 is simple and laid out right in front of you for easy progression.
It's kind of sad that our society will go towards what's easiest rather than what might take a little extra work but is better in the long run.
But sometimes it's better to start "easy" and gain confidence and enjoyment from it than to start hard and burn out quickly. Recommending something that gives people the basics and hopefully something they can stick to is more likely to ensure that they stick to it longer. Which would seem to me to be a good plan instead of starting out on the harder road and possibly giving up on it.
Agree. If I truly believed the 5/3/1 was "hard" I would not recommend it.
How would, for example, squatting once a week be better than squatting 3 x a week for a beginner?
Is it better to have squat 3 times a week or two squat once or twice a week and work a little bit harder? The answer is obvious, frequency does not guarantee better results.0 -
OP: what are your goals? Mainly strength or hypertrophy?0
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Strong Lifts or Starting Strength.... nuff said0
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I'd tend to agree that 5x5 is a better beginner program than 5/3/1. With 5/3/1 you have to figure out what you'll use for assistance, weights to use on that, etc. 5x5 is simple and laid out right in front of you for easy progression.
It's kind of sad that our society will go towards what's easiest rather than what might take a little extra work but is better in the long run.
Yeah man, I mean that works for you and me, but asking someone to buy a book when they're just looking to get started is a stretch usually, unless they are specifically asking for a recommendation for one.
I rather give them something simple and solid (though, again, 5/3/1 is only complicated in comparison, the program IS simple) and free that they can get started on. And you can't argue that it focuses completely on the fundamentals, no bs. It is a very good program for someone's first few months, especially the completely untrained.
5/3/1 really isn't that hard to figure out. I believe there is the basics of the program out there. Picking assistance lifts are easy too. You only need 2-4 for each day. And those templates are also available in a lot of places besides the book.
The amount of people who try to work out their own assist and totally get it messed up is pretty high. A beginner does not have enough experience to program - and assists are part of programming.
True. But those are the people that are typically not following what Jim writes. He spells things out in the book. Heck, he even has a support site now on T-Nation.0 -
I'd tend to agree that 5x5 is a better beginner program than 5/3/1. With 5/3/1 you have to figure out what you'll use for assistance, weights to use on that, etc. 5x5 is simple and laid out right in front of you for easy progression.
It's kind of sad that our society will go towards what's easiest rather than what might take a little extra work but is better in the long run.
But sometimes it's better to start "easy" and gain confidence and enjoyment from it than to start hard and burn out quickly. Recommending something that gives people the basics and hopefully something they can stick to is more likely to ensure that they stick to it longer. Which would seem to me to be a good plan instead of starting out on the harder road and possibly giving up on it.
Agree. If I truly believed the 5/3/1 was "hard" I would not recommend it.
How would, for example, squatting once a week be better than squatting 3 x a week for a beginner?
Is it better to have squat 3 times a week or two squat once or twice a week and work a little bit harder? The answer is obvious, frequency does not guarantee better results.
Where do you squat 2 x a week in 5/3/1 - the basic version.
I also disagree. Working harder does not always equal better, and frequency does not guarantee it - but frequency and volume gives you a better shot at it.0 -
I'd tend to agree that 5x5 is a better beginner program than 5/3/1. With 5/3/1 you have to figure out what you'll use for assistance, weights to use on that, etc. 5x5 is simple and laid out right in front of you for easy progression.
It's kind of sad that our society will go towards what's easiest rather than what might take a little extra work but is better in the long run.
Yeah man, I mean that works for you and me, but asking someone to buy a book when they're just looking to get started is a stretch usually, unless they are specifically asking for a recommendation for one.
I rather give them something simple and solid (though, again, 5/3/1 is only complicated in comparison, the program IS simple) and free that they can get started on. And you can't argue that it focuses completely on the fundamentals, no bs. It is a very good program for someone's first few months, especially the completely untrained.
5/3/1 really isn't that hard to figure out. I believe there is the basics of the program out there. Picking assistance lifts are easy too. You only need 2-4 for each day. And those templates are also available in a lot of places besides the book.
The amount of people who try to work out their own assist and totally get it messed up is pretty high. A beginner does not have enough experience to program - and assists are part of programming.
True. But those are the people that are typically not following what Jim writes. He spells things out in the book. Heck, he even has a support site now on T-Nation.
There is still an amount of intelligent selection required.0 -
Bump.0
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I'd tend to agree that 5x5 is a better beginner program than 5/3/1. With 5/3/1 you have to figure out what you'll use for assistance, weights to use on that, etc. 5x5 is simple and laid out right in front of you for easy progression.
^^yep.
And as an FYI, Wendler recommends doing a 5 x 5 for beginners in Beyond 5/3/1.
Yes he does, but his version is completely different that SL5x5 and more in line with what is found in 5/3/1. He also discusses adding in "joker sets" for beginners which is not something you get in SL5x5.
Yep. But it follows a 5 x 5 format - the progression is a bit different though.0 -
I'd tend to agree that 5x5 is a better beginner program than 5/3/1. With 5/3/1 you have to figure out what you'll use for assistance, weights to use on that, etc. 5x5 is simple and laid out right in front of you for easy progression.
It's kind of sad that our society will go towards what's easiest rather than what might take a little extra work but is better in the long run.
Yeah man, I mean that works for you and me, but asking someone to buy a book when they're just looking to get started is a stretch usually, unless they are specifically asking for a recommendation for one.
I rather give them something simple and solid (though, again, 5/3/1 is only complicated in comparison, the program IS simple) and free that they can get started on. And you can't argue that it focuses completely on the fundamentals, no bs. It is a very good program for someone's first few months, especially the completely untrained.
5/3/1 really isn't that hard to figure out. I believe there is the basics of the program out there. Picking assistance lifts are easy too. You only need 2-4 for each day. And those templates are also available in a lot of places besides the book.
The amount of people who try to work out their own assist and totally get it messed up is pretty high. A beginner does not have enough experience to program - and assists are part of programming.
Except there's templates Wendler already put together a decent amount of templates. All of which are in the book, and several can be found with a Google search. The Triumvirate is pretty simple.
You still need to select based on goals/strengths and weaknesses.0 -
Squat, Deadlift, shoulder press. mix it up with weights and reps, and add other lifts (bench, overhead squat, front squat), and do bodyweight stuff as well (pushups, pullups). Just have fun with it.0
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OP:
While I love 5/3/1 (I run a modified version myself), I would stick to one of the basic programs depending on your goals and preferences so you get enough frequency/volume and a progression appropriate to a beginner.
Another one to look at, is the AllPro routine, which I would recommend also, especially if you have goals that are more hypertrophy based:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=41958430 -
Sure but those weight's get heavy pretty quick. Since I'm using it right now to work back up to heavy weight...
If I start all lifts at their lowest, and increment by 10 lbs per workout (the standard is 5 lbs increments), I would be hitting the following in 2.5 months:
Bench 190
Deadlift 260
Press 115
Squat 300
That's starting at the bar, in the same time as roughly 1.5 cycles of 5/3/1. It starts very light and there's a lot of preliminary lifting where you are going through the motions with light weight, but it gets heavy, quickly. In no time you're doing some real work.0 -
I really like this dudes 5x5 program.
http://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/jason-blaha-ice-cream-fitness-5x5-novice-workout
Not bad but def not for a beginner. I think I will try something similar.0 -
I really like this dudes 5x5 program.
http://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/jason-blaha-ice-cream-fitness-5x5-novice-workout
Not bad but def not for a beginner. I think I will try something similar.
Why not for a beginner? It is actually developed for beginners.0 -
I really like this dudes 5x5 program.
http://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/jason-blaha-ice-cream-fitness-5x5-novice-workout
Not bad but def not for a beginner. I think I will try something similar.
Why not for a beginner? It is actually developed for beginners.
Too much work for a beginner and no need for isolation work for a beginner IMO. If you still have energy after the compound lifts with the 5x5 sets then you are not working hard enough. 5x5 @ 85% 1RM, a beginner should not have much left in the tank if any. All the compound lifts... great for beginners... isolation work... not so much.0 -
I really like this dudes 5x5 program.
http://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/jason-blaha-ice-cream-fitness-5x5-novice-workout
Not bad but def not for a beginner. I think I will try something similar.
Why not for a beginner? It is actually developed for beginners.
Too much work for a beginner and no need for isolation work for a beginner IMO. If you still have energy after the compound lifts with the 5x5 sets then you are not working hard enough. 5x5 @ 85% 1RM, a beginner should not have much left in the tank if any. All the compound lifts... great for beginners... isolation work... not so much.
I would tend to agree, though his accessory template isn't bad.0 -
I really like this dudes 5x5 program.
http://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/jason-blaha-ice-cream-fitness-5x5-novice-workout
Not bad but def not for a beginner. I think I will try something similar.
Why not for a beginner? It is actually developed for beginners.
Too much work for a beginner and no need for isolation work for a beginner IMO. If you still have energy after the compound lifts with the 5x5 sets then you are not working hard enough. 5x5 @ 85% 1RM, a beginner should not have much left in the tank if any. All the compound lifts... great for beginners... isolation work... not so much.
I would tend to agree, though his accessory template isn't bad.
Agreed.0 -
Anyone try this routine?
http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/the-beginner-weight-training-workout-routine/0 -
I really like this dudes 5x5 program.
http://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/jason-blaha-ice-cream-fitness-5x5-novice-workout
Not bad but def not for a beginner. I think I will try something similar.
Why not for a beginner? It is actually developed for beginners.
That seems like an awful lot of time per workout for a beginner. I'm just doing three lifts at 3x5 (Starting Strength) and easily spend an hour to an hour and half with proper rest between sets. There's no way I'd be able to squeeze in the above workout after work.0 -
Anyone try this routine?
http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/the-beginner-weight-training-workout-routine/
Looks pretty decent to me. Just 2 initial comments on it - make sure you read the blurb re deadlifts - when it gets heavier, you will want to drop the volume down. Also, no mention of warm up sets - which should be incorporated.0 -
Sure but those weight's get heavy pretty quick. Since I'm using it right now to work back up to heavy weight...
If I start all lifts at their lowest, and increment by 10 lbs per workout (the standard is 5 lbs increments), I would be hitting the following in 2.5 months:
Bench 190
Deadlift 260
Press 115
Squat 300
That's starting at the bar, in the same time as roughly 1.5 cycles of 5/3/1. It starts very light and there's a lot of preliminary lifting where you are going through the motions with light weight, but it gets heavy, quickly. In no time you're doing some real work.
If you want to believe that one makes you stronger faster over the other then go for it. I'm out...0 -
Anyone try this routine?
http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/the-beginner-weight-training-workout-routine/
I like it but I can't do pull ups my shoulders are still too weak is there something else I can do?0 -
Too much work for a beginner and no need for isolation work for a beginner IMO.
Accessory work doesn't need to be isolation work. Chin-ups are not an isolation movement, back raises are not an isolation movement, etc.0 -
Anyone try this routine?
http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/the-beginner-weight-training-workout-routine/
I like it but I can't do pull ups my shoulders are still too weak is there something else I can do?
You can do pull-downs on a machine if you want. That's what I do.0 -
Anyone try this routine?
http://www.aworkoutroutine.com/the-beginner-weight-training-workout-routine/
I like it but I can't do pull ups my shoulders are still too weak is there something else I can do?
You can do assisted pull ups, or negatives.
Assisted - either on a machine or using a band around your leg
Negatives - start from the top and slowly let yourself down.
Good discussion here: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/646798-the-cornerstone-of-upper-body-strength-the-pullup?0 -
ok cool thanks seliinac and Sarauk2sf I will look up what the machine looks like I hope the gym on post has one.0
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OH! I have seen that machine before I just had no idea what it was for.0
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I'd tend to agree that 5x5 is a better beginner program than 5/3/1. With 5/3/1 you have to figure out what you'll use for assistance, weights to use on that, etc. 5x5 is simple and laid out right in front of you for easy progression.
It's kind of sad that our society will go towards what's easiest rather than what might take a little extra work but is better in the long run.
It's not a matter of the routine being easier, because the volume and weight progression will challenge a beginner pretty fast. It's just an easier program to follow for a beginner, knowing you have 4-5 lifts to do and your weight progression is set. I think it's a program like that builds a good base which then lets you migrate towards a 5/3/1 program.
For 5/3/1 the 1st thing you need to figure out the cycle progression is a rep max for each lift. How is a beginner supposed to do this? Testing for any kind of rep max with no experience is not a wise move. Using a 10-12 rep max is not going to be accurate for figuring out the 5/3/1 week. I also don't think any beginner should be doing any set that is 3 reps or less. Do the 5x5, work on your form, learn the lifts, and when you hit the ceiling on progress, you'll have enough experience to move into a more advanced routine.
After years of powerlifting doing some pretty advanced routines, when I returned to the weight room after a several years off, I did a few months of 5x5 just to get my feet under me again, because it was a simple program to follow that hit all the bases. Once my strength came back some, then I moved to 5/3/1 as my current plan.0 -
Sure but those weight's get heavy pretty quick. Since I'm using it right now to work back up to heavy weight...
If I start all lifts at their lowest, and increment by 10 lbs per workout (the standard is 5 lbs increments), I would be hitting the following in 2.5 months:
Bench 190
Deadlift 260
Press 115
Squat 300
That's starting at the bar, in the same time as roughly 1.5 cycles of 5/3/1. It starts very light and there's a lot of preliminary lifting where you are going through the motions with light weight, but it gets heavy, quickly. In no time you're doing some real work.
If you want to believe that one makes you stronger faster over the other then go for it. I'm out...
Hey man we disagree about which to suggest, and that's cool. Just to clear it up though, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying it starts very light (a good thing) and gets you up to speed (challenging your true potential) pretty quickly, while focusing only on the lifts and getting a lot of quality time in with them before it gets heavy.
Also, if Jim posted the 5s Progression online so I could refer people to it I wouldn't mind pointing people in that direction, but as it stands they would need to buy and read two different books, putting the them together to really get it.0
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