A call to more heavily regulate the supplement industry
Replies
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I have no problem with the people buying bee jelly covering the cost of bee jelly safety and efficacy studies.
The people buying bee jelly just might. If you're not not one of them, then what business is it of yours? More importantly, as a non bee jelly consumer, what exactly is it you think gives you the right to force the bee jelly consumers to pay higher prices for their products to help get a bee out of your bonnet (pun intended)? The world in general would be a lot better off without busy bodies running around sticking the government's nose into things because they get an itch.
Government is by FAR responsible for more death, pain, misery AND snake oil in the world than a billion supplement companies. Hell, government has caused more death and injury than all diseases combined. Yet we never seem to run out of busy bodies calling for government to "fix" something new.
Maybe the investigation would show that bee jelly does precisely squat, and the bee jelly buying public can save themselves the cost of regulation and the cost of bee jelly. Just sayin'
Or maybe the bee jelly buying public can figure that out for themselves when there's no evidence that they're benefiting from the jelly. Then they can save themselves the costs of regulation and bee jelly, and society can be spared the (incalculable) of further empowering the government.
Turns out the public is extraordinarily bad at separating marketing claims from scientific fact
That's their problem, not yours or the government's.
It's OUR problem. Pretending we all live in an isolated environment where the actions of people around us only affect them is foolish.
No, pretending that it's your job to live someone else's life and make their decisions is foolish.0 -
Not sure if Jonnythan is getting trolled or people are serious
No, it's Jonnythan that is trolling here.0 -
If something is proven to cause irreparable harm, then get it pulled from the market (like they did with ephedra containing products)
It was the FDA that banned ephedra, against the strong opposition of the companies selling it.
I'm not sure why you would make that comment concerning what you quoted? I don't have a problem with the government (FDA) banning harmful products of this nature since we have the precedent already of making other harmful substances illegal (heroin, cocaine, LSD, methamphetamines, etc.). I don't care if the company strongly opposed it. What I don't want is for the government to decide that it needs to investigate each and every dietary supplement on the market or all of the future products (99% of which are harmless snakeoil) because to do so would be a massive waste of resources.
No one is saying the government should do the investigation.
I said it was a massive waste of resources. I never specified whose resources would be wasted. But no matter what, there would be taxpayer money used if the supplement industry became more heavily regulated. Someone would have to sort through and verify the testing and claims presented by each company. The products won't just magically make it onto the shelves if the company provides enough evidence to show it has beneficial and non harmful effect. When the term 'regulation' is used, it's talking about government oversight unless there's some private regulatory agency that I'm unaware of doing this pro bono.
A lot of the work has already been done. Believe it or not, people in the biomedical sciences take notice of health claims. We test them. Pharma looks at "traditional" medicine to see if they do, in fact, have any efficacy. But why should they do that if they don't have to? They (Pharma) can sell this stuff without having to prove it works. [Read the article in the OP. Many of these supplement companies are already owned by big Pharma companies.]
If someone wants to prove their supplement works, the mechanism is in place.
That's great. I read the OP's link. I'm not sure what your comment had to do with the last comment I made because you didn't address a single one of its points. Let me bold what you didn't address as a response to what you just wrote.
If every supplement that currently is on shelves suddenly needed to get passed through a government agency (assuming FDA) that agency will have to employ X number of people to field the sudden influx of applications submitted immediately and in the future. The more red tape you add to a process, the more the product will cost and the greater drain of government on taxpayers. And for what? Verifying that 99% of the products do little to nothing? I don't want to add millions or billions of dollars to the cost of the government just so I can rest easy knowing that the government has given it's stamp of "this products does nothing" to things like greet bean extract and raspberry keytones. If something is dangerous, spend the money to deal with that, not the tons of non harmful crap.
Edit: can't stop making typos today
I was more using your post to springboard my thought than responding to you directly. Sorry.
But the Gov would not have to spend that much more time/money on it than it does on current drugs. You want to make a health claim on your product; you do the research and present it to the FDA for approval. If you don't, you can't make any health claims - none of this "These statements have not been approved by the FDA" nonsense. Nothing.
And we already test foods to make sure they are not contaminated with things that aren't supposed to be there. We could just expand that to these supplements. If I'm buying St John's Wort, I want to know I'm getting St John's wort, not some other weed I might be allergic to instead. What's wrong with requiring companies to actually make sure they are selling what they say they are selling?
The thing about leaving it to the invisible hand of the market is that simply doesn't work. We see that with the low level of QC going on right now. And we, as consumers, have no way of telling if the St John's Wort we buy is actually St John's Wort or not. Sure, the filler they use probably isn't going to kill us, but don't we deserve to get what we are actually paying for?
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People should be allowed to put whatever they want in their bodies.
However, corporations should not be able to market and sell anything they want, unchecked and unregulated. Those are two very different concepts.
Your second sentence here contradicts your first sentence.0 -
While it would be nice to think that regulation and taxation would clear up all of those safety problems, you need look no further than illegal moonshine liquor to see that it's likely a black market would rise out of that solution. I agree with the idea that people ought to be able to imbibe in their chosen chemical (again, supplements, drugs, whatever) safely, knowing full-well what they're putting into their bodies. I disagree that regulation and taxation is the solution since it encourages the growth of illegal markets that operate outside the realm of these regulations.
But then people have a choice as to whether they use the tested and regulated product or take their chances with the black market. And if someone wants to take chances, then Darwinism ...
People have a choice now. How does more regulation and taxation change the current situation?
-_-
No. People have a choice to purchase or not to purchase products from various markets, illegal or above-board.
So you can buy it and take your chances or not buy it at all. I personally have no interest in it, but the people who DO want to buy it might like the choice of knowing some of it is at least regulated so that the company can get in trouble for false claims.
I can appreciate that some people might enjoy some extra regulation; I am not one of them. Simple trial and error by the consumer would determine if a company is making false claims, though; then the consumer could simply choose not to support that business anymore by not purchasing the garbage it produces. I also don't care much for the vitamins/supplements we're talking about, and I agree that people should weigh their options carefully when considering their health. I just don't think that regulation and taxation is a good option for facilitating that.
I just don't think death or severe illness should be a consequence of stupid choices by clearly gullible people.
I don't like the amount of regulation we have and I'd like to see less overall. But I do think there are specific areas where regulation is not necessarily a bad thing.
I don't want to see the government telling people what they can and cannot eat (sodium, trans fats, Big Gulps), but I want to at least KNOW what I'm ingesting.
Pretty sure you were advocating Darwinism earlier?
Safety is definitely important, and I'm willing to admit that not all regulations are bad or facetious. However, increasing regulations over time will eventually get to the point where the government will tell people what they can and cannot eat. Look at New York's attempted ban on soda or other sugary drinks in excess of a certain quantity. (I forget the actual legislation, but it was something along the lines of: you can't buy more than 16 ounces of soda at a time because sugar is bad, m'kay? Think of the poor, fat chillren!)
I would support regulation that mandates companies must publish what is in their product, since we already have that standard for many foods and drugs already. I balk at the idea of giving the FDA (or any other regulatory agency) enough power that they can outright ban certain foods or chemicals, even those that have potentially harmful effects.0 -
While it would be nice to think that regulation and taxation would clear up all of those safety problems, you need look no further than illegal moonshine liquor to see that it's likely a black market would rise out of that solution. I agree with the idea that people ought to be able to imbibe in their chosen chemical (again, supplements, drugs, whatever) safely, knowing full-well what they're putting into their bodies. I disagree that regulation and taxation is the solution since it encourages the growth of illegal markets that operate outside the realm of these regulations.
I really don't see much of a black market for royal jelly or whatever they put in Advocare.
Right now the supplement industry is basically unregulated. You can sell pretty much anything you want, with whatever health claims you want. It's a multi-billion industry where monied corporate interests are trying hard to come up with the next chemical to sell tot he public by telling them it'll make them healthier. It's these corporate interests trying hard to exploit people who are not in a position to know better or to separate marketing from science that need to be regulated.
I understand what you're saying that some people may be exploited since they don't take the time to learn or know any better. But whose fault is that? The company for producing snake oil, or the consumer for not making informed decisions? I'm aware that companies do sometimes use less-than-savory tactics to encourage people to buy their products. ... But no one is forcing anyone's hand, here. No one is holding these poor, disenfranchised folks at gun point and telling them they must purchase these things.
What about the little old couple who get conned out of their retirement funds by someone running a ponzi scheme? What about them? After all, no one held a gun to their head and forced them to buy. Instead they were convinced to buy into something by someone telling lies about the potential benefits.
Other than scale, what's the difference?
There is a huge difference between offering a product for which there is a consumer market, and committing fraud. Fraud is always unacceptable. Markets, on the other hand, should be about consumers and producers, not bureaucrats and self-righteous "do-gooders."0 -
This isn't about protecting people from stupidity. It's about offering people information so they can make an in formed choice. I like to make informed choices, but if there's no information available, there isn't a way to make an informed choice.
Right.
How many people in this thread who are arguing that we shouldn't regulate supplements would like to know if the food they are eating is GMO or not? How can you chose if you don't know?0 -
Even an outright ban would *NOT* prevent people from being stupid. Look at how many people still smoke crack, and it's 100% illegal with jail time as a penalty. We can not end stupidity through legislation.
This isn't about protecting people from stupidity. It's about offering people information so they can make an in formed choice. I like to make informed choices, but if there's no information available, there isn't a way to make an informed choice.
And people buying Vitamin D know that they are buying Vitamin D.
I use that as an example because in the current market, a supplement of Vitamin D is $6, whereas a prescription for it is running $10 due to over-regulation of prescription drugs.0 -
Even an outright ban would *NOT* prevent people from being stupid. Look at how many people still smoke crack, and it's 100% illegal with jail time as a penalty. We can not end stupidity through legislation.
Robbery and murder shouldn't be illegal, because laws against robbery and murder obviously don't stop these things from happening.
Sorry, that's a poor example. Robbery and murder have victims. Ingesting a pill of your own choosing is a personal choice with no victim.0 -
Even an outright ban would *NOT* prevent people from being stupid. Look at how many people still smoke crack, and it's 100% illegal with jail time as a penalty. We can not end stupidity through legislation.
This isn't about protecting people from stupidity. It's about offering people information so they can make an in formed choice. I like to make informed choices, but if there's no information available, there isn't a way to make an informed choice.
What if I told you they're actually not smoking crack? There's a big difference between "pure, unadulterated crack" and street-grade crack, which often has many harmful additives that result in all of the awful health effects you hear about crack addicts having. This is tangential, but an interesting illustrative point to your argument that the people who make products ought to be truthful about what's in them.
It's also a nice example for my argument that the government has no qualms about telling you what you can and can't do with your body.0 -
Pretty sure you were advocating Darwinism earlier?
Right. But I mean people having enough information making stupid decisions. Like if someone tells you to jump off a bridge and you do, well, you knew that was going to kill you and you did it, anyway.0 -
This isn't about protecting people from stupidity. It's about offering people information so they can make an in formed choice. I like to make informed choices, but if there's no information available, there isn't a way to make an informed choice.
Right.
How many people in this thread who are arguing that we shouldn't regulate supplements would like to know if the food they are eating is GMO or not? How can you chose if you don't know?
I don't care whether or not i am eating GMO. I most likely am. I don't believe that GMO is the big, bad, boogy-man that people make it out to be.0 -
Try re-reading: all that was stated is why regulate something when all have the choice to either take it or not.
Some prefer natural - and that doesn't allude to any altered state of mind from certain compounds provided by nature that may breakdown into another chemical state - natural or synthetic.
And yes, I am well aware of what a police state is. Just not everyone is aware of how much regulation is already out there apparently.
I don't really care if some people prefer what they perceive to be 'natural' vs 'synthetic'. It's just that a chemical is a chemical, and structurally identical, whether gotten directly from a seed pod (by chewing, or whatever) or built in a lab. The chemical structure is exactly the same.0 -
People should be allowed to put whatever they want in their bodies.
However, corporations should not be able to market and sell anything they want, unchecked and unregulated. Those are two very different concepts.
Your second sentence here contradicts your first sentence.
Not my post, but no it doesn't.
If I chose to consume St John's wort thinking it will help depression, that is my choice.
If I buy a bottle labeled St John's Wort, I should be getting St John's Wort, not some filler of unknown origin that the company decided to use instead because it was cheaper.0 -
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Even an outright ban would *NOT* prevent people from being stupid. Look at how many people still smoke crack, and it's 100% illegal with jail time as a penalty. We can not end stupidity through legislation.
This isn't about protecting people from stupidity. It's about offering people information so they can make an in formed choice. I like to make informed choices, but if there's no information available, there isn't a way to make an informed choice.
And people buying Vitamin D know that they are buying Vitamin D.
I use that as an example because in the current market, a supplement of Vitamin D is $6, whereas a prescription for it is running $10 due to over-regulation of prescription drugs.
Anyway, I see nothing wrong with companies being required to label things accurately so people who want to make informaed choices can.0 -
Even an outright ban would *NOT* prevent people from being stupid. Look at how many people still smoke crack, and it's 100% illegal with jail time as a penalty. We can not end stupidity through legislation.
This isn't about protecting people from stupidity. It's about offering people information so they can make an in formed choice. I like to make informed choices, but if there's no information available, there isn't a way to make an informed choice.
What if I told you they're actually not smoking crack? There's a big difference between "pure, unadulterated crack" and street-grade crack, which often has many harmful additives that result in all of the awful health effects you hear about crack addicts having. This is tangential, but an interesting illustrative point to your argument that the people who make products ought to be truthful about what's in them.
It's also a nice example for my argument that the government has no qualms about telling you what you can and can't do with your body.
That is likely true as well. Street drugs are the most likely to be adulterated because the market itself is criminal rather than legitimate. If we ended drug scheduling, people could good pure cocaine if they wanted it, without the worries of adulteration.0 -
While it would be nice to think that regulation and taxation would clear up all of those safety problems, you need look no further than illegal moonshine liquor to see that it's likely a black market would rise out of that solution. I agree with the idea that people ought to be able to imbibe in their chosen chemical (again, supplements, drugs, whatever) safely, knowing full-well what they're putting into their bodies. I disagree that regulation and taxation is the solution since it encourages the growth of illegal markets that operate outside the realm of these regulations.
But then people have a choice as to whether they use the tested and regulated product or take their chances with the black market. And if someone wants to take chances, then Darwinism ...
People have a choice now. How does more regulation and taxation change the current situation?
Yes, actually. Heroin is an excellent painkiller for someone in the final throws of terminal cancer.
http://healthyone.org/medical-uses-of-heroin/0 -
Even an outright ban would *NOT* prevent people from being stupid. Look at how many people still smoke crack, and it's 100% illegal with jail time as a penalty. We can not end stupidity through legislation.
This isn't about protecting people from stupidity. It's about offering people information so they can make an in formed choice. I like to make informed choices, but if there's no information available, there isn't a way to make an informed choice.
And people buying Vitamin D know that they are buying Vitamin D.
I use that as an example because in the current market, a supplement of Vitamin D is $6, whereas a prescription for it is running $10 due to over-regulation of prescription drugs.
Anyway, I see nothing wrong with companies being required to label things accurately so people who want to make informaed choices can.
That doesn't work too well for folks with chronic medical conditions. Some folks, my husband for example, needs vitamin supplements. The Vitamin D prescription example is a true story. My husband also takes a Vitamin B supplement as well. It's cheaper at the Vitamin Shoppe than to fill the prescription his doctor gave him.0 -
I balk at the idea of giving the FDA (or any other regulatory agency) enough power that they can outright ban certain foods or chemicals, even those that have potentially harmful effects.
Hmm. That's kinda beyond crazy. Completely nonsensical stance. Products like Thalidomide have to be taken off the market.0 -
While it would be nice to think that regulation and taxation would clear up all of those safety problems, you need look no further than illegal moonshine liquor to see that it's likely a black market would rise out of that solution. I agree with the idea that people ought to be able to imbibe in their chosen chemical (again, supplements, drugs, whatever) safely, knowing full-well what they're putting into their bodies. I disagree that regulation and taxation is the solution since it encourages the growth of illegal markets that operate outside the realm of these regulations.
But then people have a choice as to whether they use the tested and regulated product or take their chances with the black market. And if someone wants to take chances, then Darwinism ...
People have a choice now. How does more regulation and taxation change the current situation?
Yes, actually. Heroin is an excellent painkiller for someone in the final throws of terminal cancer.
http://healthyone.org/medical-uses-of-heroin/
And the Bayer Corporation was legally marketing heroin back when they first pulled aspirin from the shelves, since aspirin causes brain aneurysm in large dosages.0 -
Even an outright ban would *NOT* prevent people from being stupid. Look at how many people still smoke crack, and it's 100% illegal with jail time as a penalty. We can not end stupidity through legislation.
This isn't about protecting people from stupidity. It's about offering people information so they can make an in formed choice. I like to make informed choices, but if there's no information available, there isn't a way to make an informed choice.
And people buying Vitamin D know that they are buying Vitamin D.
I use that as an example because in the current market, a supplement of Vitamin D is $6, whereas a prescription for it is running $10 due to over-regulation of prescription drugs.
No they don't! There is no regulation and no testing. The company could be putting anything in that pill and calling it Vitamin D. And how is the consumer to know?
Not Vit. D directly, but the point is the same:Two bottles labeled as St. John’s wort, which studies have shown may treat mild depression, contained none of the medicinal herb. Instead, the pills in one bottle were made of nothing but rice, and another bottle contained only Alexandrian senna, an Egyptian yellow shrub that is a powerful laxative. Gingko biloba supplements, promoted as memory enhancers, were mixed with fillers and black walnut, a potentially deadly hazard for people with nut allergies.
Of 44 herbal supplements tested, one-third showed outright substitution, meaning there was no trace of the plant advertised on the bottle — only another plant in its place.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/science/herbal-supplements-are-often-not-what-they-seem.html?_r=1&0 -
I balk at the idea of giving the FDA (or any other regulatory agency) enough power that they can outright ban certain foods or chemicals, even those that have potentially harmful effects.
Hmm. That's kinda beyond crazy. Completely nonsensical stance. Products like Thalidomide have to be taken off the market.
Hmm. It's kinda not, actually. If a product is known to be harmful and someone who knows this still wishes to consume it, I say all power to them. Why are you trying to protect people from themselves? That's kinda beyond crazy, possibly bordering on completely nonsensical.0 -
I balk at the idea of giving the FDA (or any other regulatory agency) enough power that they can outright ban certain foods or chemicals, even those that have potentially harmful effects.
Hmm. That's kinda beyond crazy. Completely nonsensical stance. Products like Thalidomide have to be taken off the market.
Hmm. It's kinda not, actually. If a product is known to be harmful and someone who knows this still wishes to consume it, I say all power to them. Why are you trying to protect people from themselves? That's kinda beyond crazy, possibly bordering on completely nonsensical.
How are you supposed to know the supplement is harmful when you don't know what's in it or where it comes from?0 -
I balk at the idea of giving the FDA (or any other regulatory agency) enough power that they can outright ban certain foods or chemicals, even those that have potentially harmful effects.
Hmm. That's kinda beyond crazy. Completely nonsensical stance. Products like Thalidomide have to be taken off the market.
Hmm. It's kinda not, actually. If a product is known to be harmful and someone who knows this still wishes to consume it, I say all power to them. Why are you trying to protect people from themselves? That's kinda beyond crazy, possibly bordering on completely nonsensical.
Thalidomide was a product marketed to treat morning sickness, that caused birth defects. Your stance is insane.0 -
Even an outright ban would *NOT* prevent people from being stupid. Look at how many people still smoke crack, and it's 100% illegal with jail time as a penalty. We can not end stupidity through legislation.
This isn't about protecting people from stupidity. It's about offering people information so they can make an in formed choice. I like to make informed choices, but if there's no information available, there isn't a way to make an informed choice.
And people buying Vitamin D know that they are buying Vitamin D.
I use that as an example because in the current market, a supplement of Vitamin D is $6, whereas a prescription for it is running $10 due to over-regulation of prescription drugs.
Anyway, I see nothing wrong with companies being required to label things accurately so people who want to make informaed choices can.
That doesn't work too well for folks with chronic medical conditions. Some folks, my husband for example, needs vitamin supplements. The Vitamin D prescription example is a true story. My husband also takes a Vitamin B supplement as well. It's cheaper at the Vitamin Shoppe than to fill the prescription his doctor gave him.
Cheaper, but you don't actually know that what is in those supplements is what they say. Because it's not regulated. I'd prefer to go with the prescription, rather than risk my health.0 -
I balk at the idea of giving the FDA (or any other regulatory agency) enough power that they can outright ban certain foods or chemicals, even those that have potentially harmful effects.
Hmm. That's kinda beyond crazy. Completely nonsensical stance. Products like Thalidomide have to be taken off the market.
Hmm. It's kinda not, actually. If a product is known to be harmful and someone who knows this still wishes to consume it, I say all power to them. Why are you trying to protect people from themselves? That's kinda beyond crazy, possibly bordering on completely nonsensical.
Thalidomide was a product marketed to treat morning sickness, that caused birth defects. Your stance is insane.
Let's talk crazy, then.
There are plenty of foods and chemicals that don't have many (or sometimes any) redeeming qualities. Alcohol has shown to have similar effects, but you're not advocating removing it from the market, just to name one example. Since you're specifically talking about a product that was meant for a pregnant market and it causes severe issues for that market, I would agree that it's probably not the best thing for consumers in that market to purchase. I would argue that it shouldn't need to be taken off the market by a regulatory agency at that point, since they'd already failed. At the point where everyone realized the adverse effects it had, I'm betting the market looking at purchasing it reconsidered their decision. Taking it a step further, with no customers interested in purchasing it, it would swiftly fail in any market.0 -
I balk at the idea of giving the FDA (or any other regulatory agency) enough power that they can outright ban certain foods or chemicals, even those that have potentially harmful effects.
Hmm. That's kinda beyond crazy. Completely nonsensical stance. Products like Thalidomide have to be taken off the market.
No, it's nonsensical to control someone else's body. That's a form of slavery.0 -
Even an outright ban would *NOT* prevent people from being stupid. Look at how many people still smoke crack, and it's 100% illegal with jail time as a penalty. We can not end stupidity through legislation.
This isn't about protecting people from stupidity. It's about offering people information so they can make an in formed choice. I like to make informed choices, but if there's no information available, there isn't a way to make an informed choice.
And people buying Vitamin D know that they are buying Vitamin D.
I use that as an example because in the current market, a supplement of Vitamin D is $6, whereas a prescription for it is running $10 due to over-regulation of prescription drugs.
No they don't! There is no regulation and no testing. The company could be putting anything in that pill and calling it Vitamin D. And how is the consumer to know?
Not Vit. D directly, but the point is the same:Two bottles labeled as St. John’s wort, which studies have shown may treat mild depression, contained none of the medicinal herb. Instead, the pills in one bottle were made of nothing but rice, and another bottle contained only Alexandrian senna, an Egyptian yellow shrub that is a powerful laxative. Gingko biloba supplements, promoted as memory enhancers, were mixed with fillers and black walnut, a potentially deadly hazard for people with nut allergies.
Of 44 herbal supplements tested, one-third showed outright substitution, meaning there was no trace of the plant advertised on the bottle — only another plant in its place.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/science/herbal-supplements-are-often-not-what-they-seem.html?_r=1&
That's absurd.
Also, Vitamin D is *not* an herb, and my husband has regular blood and urine tests, so he is quite positive that he is actually taking the vitamins he needs. :laugh:0 -
Even an outright ban would *NOT* prevent people from being stupid. Look at how many people still smoke crack, and it's 100% illegal with jail time as a penalty. We can not end stupidity through legislation.
This isn't about protecting people from stupidity. It's about offering people information so they can make an in formed choice. I like to make informed choices, but if there's no information available, there isn't a way to make an informed choice.
And people buying Vitamin D know that they are buying Vitamin D.
I use that as an example because in the current market, a supplement of Vitamin D is $6, whereas a prescription for it is running $10 due to over-regulation of prescription drugs.
Anyway, I see nothing wrong with companies being required to label things accurately so people who want to make informaed choices can.
That doesn't work too well for folks with chronic medical conditions. Some folks, my husband for example, needs vitamin supplements. The Vitamin D prescription example is a true story. My husband also takes a Vitamin B supplement as well. It's cheaper at the Vitamin Shoppe than to fill the prescription his doctor gave him.
Cheaper, but you don't actually know that what is in those supplements is what they say. Because it's not regulated. I'd prefer to go with the prescription, rather than risk my health.
See my comment above. Blood and urine analysis proves he is getting what he is supposed to be getting.0
This discussion has been closed.
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