Meal Timing and Gains
longtimeterp
Posts: 614 Member
Soooo...thoughts on if its possible to see lean mass gains if i eat right around my tdee but time the calories so that they are all during or post weight training, so that the am is mostly deficit from body stores and then later in the day there is excess to give me a net evenish calories?
i know it depends on the person and the exercise, but im hoping some people will chime in with personal experiences on this type of plan...
i know it depends on the person and the exercise, but im hoping some people will chime in with personal experiences on this type of plan...
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Replies
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I think most folks here will tell you that it doesn't matter. Just eat slightly above TDEE and don't worry about timing. But I'm curious what the IF followers have to say.0
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Probably won't really do much. As I understand, you can be building muscle for 24+ hours after working out given the right protein and energy intake. For that reason, it's more or less pointless to try to pack calories into a few hours after lifting.
I lift every other day just about, and I lift in the evening. So I generally eat a surplus on lifting days, making sure to eat a lot of calories between the gym and bedtime. But I really don't think it matters.0 -
I'm an IF follower... It's just for better adherence though. Any effects would be unnoticeable unless you took drugs.0
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Does it become any more important if doing 2-a-day workouts?
i've read its important to replenish glycogen promptly if planning to do same groups again that day0 -
Soooo...thoughts on if its possible to see lean mass gains if i eat right around my tdee but time the calories so that they are all during or post weight training, so that the am is mostly deficit from body stores and then later in the day there is excess to give me a net evenish calories?
i know it depends on the person and the exercise, but im hoping some people will chime in with personal experiences on this type of plan...
Chances are your body will do what it is best at, maintain its current state.0 -
Does it become any more important if doing 2-a-day workouts?
i've read its important to replenish glycogen promptly if planning to do same groups again that day
I don't suggest you simultaneously train high volume and eat at maintenance. It's a waste of time. If you're breaking up your workout purely due to time constraints, glycogen depletion will not be a factor.0 -
It will work, its called intermittent fasting. If you have read into that. Pretty much you are taking advantage of low blood glucose by keeping natural occurring growth hormone in your blood stream as long as possible. Low catabolism of lean muscle tissue, and increasing consumption of stored fat cells. If you are at a surplus you should increase muscle size.0
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I don't suggest you simultaneously train high volume and eat at maintenance. It's a waste of time. If you're breaking up your workout purely due to time constraints, glycogen depletion will not be a factor.
Actually i'm doing 2/days twice a week for the benefits to hypertrophy it supposedly has...training looks like that with my thoughts on intake?
d1 chest/back 2x - Surplus?
d2 liss cardio - Deficit?
d3 legs/shoulders 2x - Surplus?
d4 liss cardio - Deficit?
d5 full body 1x - Surplus?
d6 2-3 hr endurance miss cardio - Maintenance?
d7 liss cardio - Deficit?
so i shouldnt worry about the excess calories on lifting days as long as i keep it around +500? i usually try to have my deficit days around -1500 so it gets hard to eat so much0 -
You can lose fat and gain lean mass at maintenance but it's slow going (recomp). Over the last 7 months I'm gaining about half a pound of lean mass a month and reducing fat percentage.
I'm doing a different form of IF (5:2) where you have two very low calorie days and five days eating at a small surplus (when maintaining, at TDEE when losing weight). Whether the IF has a major impact is impossible to quantify - probably not as much a factor as your training and nutrition.
March to October (one spell of deliberately losing weight but mostly maintaining):
Lost 4.2lbs of overall weight
Lost 7.7lbs of fat
Gained 3.5lbs of lean mass (mostly muscle hopefully!)
Fat percentage - down 4%0 -
Unless you are a pro athlete then as Alan Aragon says "The first law of nutrient timing is: hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing. The second law of nutrient timing is: hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing."
Also, that routine looks bad to be honest. It's very Poliquin-esque minus the cardio. Unless you are a very experienced trainee and you a taking a ton of drugs then twice a day training has absolutely no benefit whatsoever. It will just cause you to plateau a lot earlier than, for example, a 3x full body workout.
What is your experience level (months/years and past routines) and what are your strength levels on squat, bench, deadlift, row and overhead press?0 -
Honestly meal timing only matters post workout, forget the anabolic window but hormonal manipulation comes into play when trying to maximize your gains. Your split varies but as long as you are hitting your cals even at the end of the week it will not make a difference for you, it should make it harder for you. IMO
this is what you should do.
Set your macros 5 days of the week, same macros, in order to maximize your workload in the gym, we know the progressive overload principle is the only way to increase strength an in turn muscle mass.
So don't hamper your lifts by decreasing cals or having a fluctuation that is unnecessary, because believe it or not, carbohydrates play a small role in hormonal spikes as well (omitting insulin since we all know that blood glucose is regulated by that)
Then for your other 2 days do this.
Have one reefed day where you substantially raise you carb macro, and compensate by lowering your protein and fat for that day, this day could also be a slight caloric increase, in which i suggest working a muscle group that would need more calories to grow like legs or back. This day could also be used as the day for the muscle group you want to improve the most.
Then for your off day, drop your carbs significantly and raise your fats and proteins, have a fatty steak or something to that extent. This way your metabolism does not get too comfortable. your body is not stupid, since it is highly adaptive you will have to continue to alter your macro nutrient targets to hit your goals.
But as far as for what you were asking about my intermittent fasting window. I started at 18-6 but I have whittled it down to a 3 hour window.
I use poly peptides to increase my potentiation for protein synthesis since is such a short time for us to metabolize a large amount of protein. Its been about 4 months with that window. my strength and lmm have increased exponentially while i still see fat lose even with a slow caloric increase.0 -
I'm an IF follower... It's just for better adherence though. Any effects would be unnoticeable unless you took drugs.0
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I Do IF because I like eating big
Meal timing has zero effect on body composition .0 -
You can lose fat and gain lean mass at maintenance but it's slow going (recomp). Over the last 7 months I'm gaining about half a pound of lean mass a month and reducing fat percentage.
I'm doing a different form of IF (5:2) where you have two very low calorie days and five days eating at a small surplus (when maintaining, at TDEE when losing weight). Whether the IF has a major impact is impossible to quantify - probably not as much a factor as your training and nutrition.
March to October (one spell of deliberately losing weight but mostly maintaining):
Lost 4.2lbs of overall weight
Lost 7.7lbs of fat
Gained 3.5lbs of lean mass (mostly muscle hopefully!)
Fat percentage - down 4%
That's so incredibly inefficient.
Over the same time (March 1 - Oct 30) frame I've:
Lost 9 lbs of overall weight
Lost 18 lbs fat
Gained 9 lbs muscle
Lost 9% body fat
Bulking-Cutting-Bulking0 -
You can lose fat and gain lean mass at maintenance but it's slow going (recomp). Over the last 7 months I'm gaining about half a pound of lean mass a month and reducing fat percentage.
I'm doing a different form of IF (5:2) where you have two very low calorie days and five days eating at a small surplus (when maintaining, at TDEE when losing weight). Whether the IF has a major impact is impossible to quantify - probably not as much a factor as your training and nutrition.
March to October (one spell of deliberately losing weight but mostly maintaining):
Lost 4.2lbs of overall weight
Lost 7.7lbs of fat
Gained 3.5lbs of lean mass (mostly muscle hopefully!)
Fat percentage - down 4%
That's so incredibly inefficient.
Over the same time (March 1 - Oct 30) frame I've:
Lost 9 lbs of overall weight
Lost 18 lbs fat
Gained 9 lbs muscle
Lost 9% body fat
Bulking-Cutting-Bulking
While it may be inefficient:
1) sijomial is 56. You're 35.
2) I am skeptical of your claim of gaining 9 lbs of muscle and losing 18 lbs of fat in 8 months, assuming no gear
3) He admitted it's slow
4) sijomial appears to own a very expensive bicycle so he's probably quite into road cycling and is more interested in performance and unwilling to gain any real quantity of extra body fat through a bulking cycle.0 -
You can lose fat and gain lean mass at maintenance but it's slow going (recomp). Over the last 7 months I'm gaining about half a pound of lean mass a month and reducing fat percentage.
I'm doing a different form of IF (5:2) where you have two very low calorie days and five days eating at a small surplus (when maintaining, at TDEE when losing weight). Whether the IF has a major impact is impossible to quantify - probably not as much a factor as your training and nutrition.
March to October (one spell of deliberately losing weight but mostly maintaining):
Lost 4.2lbs of overall weight
Lost 7.7lbs of fat
Gained 3.5lbs of lean mass (mostly muscle hopefully!)
Fat percentage - down 4%
That's so incredibly inefficient.
Over the same time (March 1 - Oct 30) frame I've:
Lost 9 lbs of overall weight
Lost 18 lbs fat
Gained 9 lbs muscle
Lost 9% body fat
Bulking-Cutting-Bulking
While it may be inefficient:
1) sijomial is 56. You're 35.
2) I am skeptical of your claim of gaining 9 lbs of muscle and losing 18 lbs of fat in 8 months, assuming no gear
3) He admitted it's slow
4) sijomial appears to own a very expensive bicycle so he's probably quite into road cycling and is more interested in performance and unwilling to gain any real quantity of extra body fat through a bulking cycle.
1) 53! But yes gains are much slower, as is recovery when you are an old fart. Loose skin is also more of a factor as well, I really don't want my weight to be constantly moving up and down and end up looking like a deflated balloon.
2) No comment.
3) I'm more interested in direction than speed - I'm in this for the long haul, establishing routines to take me well into old fart-dom.
4) Good spot on the bicycle! My main focus this year has been cardio improvements to for cycling. Extra weight (whether fat or upper body muscle) isn't good for cyclists.
Would add a
5) Due to injury I'm not able to do an optimised lifting routine - most of the big compound lifts are beyond the capabilities of my back and knees. Vast majority of my leg training has been through cardio so although I've added some leg muscle not as much as if I could squat and deadlift. I've just switched to a winter routine of less cardio and more strength training so will see how it goes.
Recomp seems to get a bad press but it is a valid choice for many. Someone half my age more focussed on muscle building may well double my progress which wouldn't compare badly to a bulk/cut cycle.0 -
I workout 2x/day and I eat 2x/day, both meals are post-workout. That's it, keep it simple, eat big, get big.0
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You can lose fat and gain lean mass at maintenance but it's slow going (recomp). Over the last 7 months I'm gaining about half a pound of lean mass a month and reducing fat percentage.
I'm doing a different form of IF (5:2) where you have two very low calorie days and five days eating at a small surplus (when maintaining, at TDEE when losing weight). Whether the IF has a major impact is impossible to quantify - probably not as much a factor as your training and nutrition.
March to October (one spell of deliberately losing weight but mostly maintaining):
Lost 4.2lbs of overall weight
Lost 7.7lbs of fat
Gained 3.5lbs of lean mass (mostly muscle hopefully!)
Fat percentage - down 4%
That's so incredibly inefficient.
Over the same time (March 1 - Oct 30) frame I've:
Lost 9 lbs of overall weight
Lost 18 lbs fat
Gained 9 lbs muscle
Lost 9% body fat
Bulking-Cutting-Bulking
While it may be inefficient:
1) sijomial is 56. You're 35.
2) I am skeptical of your claim of gaining 9 lbs of muscle and losing 18 lbs of fat in 8 months, assuming no gear
3) He admitted it's slow
4) sijomial appears to own a very expensive bicycle so he's probably quite into road cycling and is more interested in performance and unwilling to gain any real quantity of extra body fat through a bulking cycle.
My results are not particularly impressive. Gaining/losing about 1 lb/wk over a 34 week stretch. Cut a little faster than that pace, bulk a little slower. I gain around 2 lb muscle/mo, very much not an "on gear" rate. Very much what you'd expect out of a 30 something guy.
Unless you are dreamer bulking, the extra bodyfat during bulking is minimal at best. I've been in this current one since mid-Aug and maybe have gained 2 lbs fat. I still look pretty much exactly like my avi (which was taken mid-Aug), but am 10 lbs heavier. Some of that is fat, some is glycogen/water, but a decent amount is muscle mass.
Recomping is more or less for people who irrationally fear bulking. Muscle growth while bulking is about like watching grass grow. Muscle growth while recomping is about like watching grass grow in the middle of winter.0 -
Recomping is more or less for people who irrationally fear bulking. Muscle growth while bulking is about like watching grass grow. Muscle growth while recomping is about like watching grass grow in the middle of winter.
You didn't read my post did you?
Fine job of projecting your goals onto everyone else!0 -
What is your experience level (months/years and past routines) and what are your strength levels on squat, bench, deadlift, row and overhead press?
i've lifted weights for a few years when i was in my teens (after being a fat kid), again for a few years in my early 20's (after getting fat in college), and then for the last 1.5 years somewhat regularly...
my calculated 1rms are squat 275 (on a smith); bench 210; dl 275 (using a trap bar); row 440 (on a hammer strength); press 175 (again on a smith)...though i usually do sets of 10-12, and use the smith b/c of knee and shoulder issues, the highest ive actually repped is 205/180/215/350/150...and my 1rm leg press is supposedly around 1100, though ive only managed 900x60 -
I Do IF because I like eating big
Meal timing has zero effect on body composition .
i like eating big too, but after reading more on leangains i somewhat agree on martin's thoughs on the fat stores burning better fasted, at least it seems logical to me0 -
Honestly meal timing only matters post workout, forget the anabolic window but hormonal manipulation comes into play when trying to maximize your gains. Your split varies but as long as you are hitting your cals even at the end of the week it will not make a difference for you, it should make it harder for you. IMO
this is what you should do.
Set your macros 5 days of the week, same macros, in order to maximize your workload in the gym, we know the progressive overload principle is the only way to increase strength an in turn muscle mass.
So don't hamper your lifts by decreasing cals or having a fluctuation that is unnecessary, because believe it or not, carbohydrates play a small role in hormonal spikes as well (omitting insulin since we all know that blood glucose is regulated by that)
Then for your other 2 days do this.
Have one reefed day where you substantially raise you carb macro, and compensate by lowering your protein and fat for that day, this day could also be a slight caloric increase, in which i suggest working a muscle group that would need more calories to grow like legs or back. This day could also be used as the day for the muscle group you want to improve the most.
Then for your off day, drop your carbs significantly and raise your fats and proteins, have a fatty steak or something to that extent. This way your metabolism does not get too comfortable. your body is not stupid, since it is highly adaptive you will have to continue to alter your macro nutrient targets to hit your goals.
so am i understanding i don't need to carb up every lifting day, as long as i carb up at least once a week? i have always felt ive more effectivly lost fat when on a low carb, but worried about it effecting my stregnth gains...come to think of it, when i started adding in carbs to my pwo shake (optimum pro gainer) over my fears of glycogen depletion the loss did slow a little, though i felt i could go a little harder at the gym. i do know i cant lift weights fasted, i have zero energy, i need my c4 and n.o. shotgun to increase the weights.
do you feel there is no benefit to calorie cycling or am i misinterpreting your macro setting comment?0 -
Recomping is more or less for people who irrationally fear bulking. Muscle growth while bulking is about like watching grass grow. Muscle growth while recomping is about like watching grass grow in the middle of winter.
You didn't read my post did you?
Fine job of projecting your goals onto everyone else!
Your first reason, loose skin. Are you serious? That's just silly talk and a total ridiculous gross overexaggeration of the fat gain, unless you're talking dreamer bulking.
But I am not just addressing you, but the subject of this thread.
Most people that attempt recomping come to regret it. Of those that don't, many just don't know any better (yet, plenty will one day attempt actual bulking then look back at their recomp time and think WTF was I thinking).
In this era of search engines and whatnot, there is a ton of confirmation bias. So many people have this silly notion that recomping will be even close to as effective, if not moreso, than the usual bulking-cutting route at reducing bodyfat%, reducing fat and gaining muscle. They ask questions about it, people give them the theory behind it and they can see success stories. What they don't see or don't want to see is how many people have utterly failed, and what the relative similar recomp rates are for people that bulk-cut. Quite simply they are afraid of the fat gain of bulking, because it is an unknown and fat gain is scary, and have an avenue to not have to face their fears.
More people need to post in threads about recomping and discourage people from attempting it. Quite simply it is hard to see the downside so doing it, it always looks like such a great idea. Yet many who try, after months and months of work, come to one day question whether they have actually made any progress whatsoever, or look at their results and it really hit them when it is said to be slow, just how slow that really is. Bulking-cutting is but a fraction of the pace of weight loss when it comes to body change, recomping is but a fraction of the pace of bulking-cutting. People looking at it grossly overestimate their willpower to stick with something producing maybe slight progress. And the dietary scheme followed for this virtually invisible progress is well beyond what is required for standard bulking-cutting.
The only people who regret bulking are those that dreamer bulk. I've never heard of someone that came to regret slow-moderate pace bulking. On the flipside I've seen many, many people attempt to recomp, and come to regret that decision down the line.
Face your fear of bulking fat gain. Its not that bad at all and comes off easy once you're ready to get rid of it, and you can keep it imperceptible to all but the most keen observer of you (naked) if you don't spend too long doing it at a time (3 months or so). If you want to build muscle mass, there is nothing that can even remotely compare to getting yourself in a consistent calorie surplus and staying there a while.0 -
I don't think 2x is the best idea long term. It may be okay for 3-4 weeks, then I would deload, then I would just do once a day.
I don't suggest you simultaneously train high volume and eat at maintenance. It's a waste of time. If you're breaking up your workout purely due to time constraints, glycogen depletion will not be a factor.
Actually i'm doing 2/days twice a week for the benefits to hypertrophy it supposedly has...training looks like that with my thoughts on intake?
d1 chest/back 2x - Surplus?
d2 liss cardio - Deficit?
d3 legs/shoulders 2x - Surplus?
d4 liss cardio - Deficit?
d5 full body 1x - Surplus?
d6 2-3 hr endurance miss cardio - Maintenance?
d7 liss cardio - Deficit?
so i shouldnt worry about the excess calories on lifting days as long as i keep it around +500? i usually try to have my deficit days around -1500 so it gets hard to eat so much
It looks like you are all over the place with your calories which means you are just spinning your wheels. A -1500 cal deficit isn't going to magically burn fat and besides you are probably hurting your performance in the gym the following day. The number of days you spend in the gym, you shouldn't have a deficit at all.0 -
Waldo - you are missing the point entirely.
Recomp is only one of my goals - I'm totally happy to place it according to my priorities. Setting a lifetime best for cycling was my #1 target and being in deficit or bulking would both have been detrimental to cycling performance.
BTW - In no way am I saying recomp is the best option if your sole or primary goal is body building. I am saying that it's a valid choice and suits some people with different objectives.
Remember that the OP didn't ask for the quickest way to build muscle/lose fat.
But breaking news - not everyone is a body builder, not everyone wants to be a body builder. I've got no regrets at all - pleased with results so far and will continue doing what works for me.
I don't have a fear of adding weight either - irrelevant anyway as at my current bodyfat I would be cutting first.
Loose skin - yes it is a problem for older people, your skin loses elasticity as you age and if you lose weight too quickly your skin doesn't snap back. Give the back of your hand a pinch and release - then compare to your parents and children - it's coming your way buddy!0 -
I do 14:10 IF while bulking and 16:8 IF while cutting. I tend to work out fasted, unless I have to wait to lift until after work. I do IF mostly to control how much I eat (bigger window, more food I can cram into my little body). Currently bulking now.0
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"The first law of nutrient timing is: hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing. The second law of nutrient timing is: hitting your daily macronutrient targets is FAR more important than nutrient timing."
This reminds me of the first 2 rules of Fight Club. HA!!!0 -
My advice is to focus on the basics, not this broscience stuff.0
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Waldo - you are missing the point entirely.
Recomp is only one of my goals - I'm totally happy to place it according to my priorities. Setting a lifetime best for cycling was my #1 target and being in deficit or bulking would both have been detrimental to cycling performance.
BTW - In no way am I saying recomp is the best option if your sole or primary goal is body building. I am saying that it's a valid choice and suits some people with different objectives.
Remember that the OP didn't ask for the quickest way to build muscle/lose fat.
But breaking news - not everyone is a body builder, not everyone wants to be a body builder. I've got no regrets at all - pleased with results so far and will continue doing what works for me.
I don't have a fear of adding weight either - irrelevant anyway as at my current bodyfat I would be cutting first.
Loose skin - yes it is a problem for older people, your skin loses elasticity as you age and if you lose weight too quickly your skin doesn't snap back. Give the back of your hand a pinch and release - then compare to your parents and children - it's coming your way buddy!
Why would one choose a less efficient path between point A and point B. That makes no sense. People recomp because they want to build muscle and lose fat. If the building muscle part was not an issue, they would just cut, it is like 10x faster for losing BF%.
Looking like a bodybuilder, lol, like building muscle is easy. It takes a couple years of work to even look like you lift weights, let alone look like a bodybuilder.
Again with the loose skin. The fact that you are even brining it up shows a gross misunderstanding of what actually occurs during normal bulking-cutting. 3-4-5 lbs of fat gain will NOT give you loose skin, not even close, I don't care how old you are, it is ridiculous to even suggest as much.0
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