Here are some really dumb strength training questions

tempehforever

Seriously, I am not going to be offended at all if you snark away at me. I've lurked enough on this and other fitness forums to recognize how silly these questions are (and that this is waaay too long of a post). But I've always been confused about some of the lingo/advice around "lifting heavy" and building muscle.

1) The stupidest question: Can you get stronger without "gaining muscle?" (Don't worry, I do want to start gaining muscle--I am just curious). I ask because I'm currently eating at a slight deficit/close to maintenance level, so I know don't have enough of a surplus to increase the amount of muscle I have. But by weight training am I still increasing the amount of STRENGTH I have? I've noticed that I can complete more reps, do more pushups, lift heavier weights, and am feeling stronger. But, again, I thought that you needed a caloric surplus to actually build muscle--am I just strengthening the muscle mass I currently have, or is that not a thing?

2) Tell me exactly what "lifting heavy," which apparently is what we are all supposed to do, means to you. I typically chose weights that allow me to to do no more than 8-12 reps at a time, for 2-3 sets. However, I have zero interest in things like serious Olympic-style lifting or Crossfit or whatever--which I what I picture when I hear the term. What about bodyweight exercises like push-ups (which are still challenging for me)--are those part of a "lifting heavy" routine?

3) I recently read The New Rules of Lifting for Women and it was very eye-opening to me. One thing the author wasn't especially keen on was Pilates as a form of strength training (he sees it as more of a recovery activity, it seems). While it isn't heavy lifting, the fusion Pilates class I attend is super intense, adding plyometrics and body-weight exercises on top of traditional Pilates stuff. By the end of the class all of my muscles are shaking and totally exhausted, and overall it does wonders for the occasional back pain I sometimes get from scoliosis. Maybe I am just not very strong to begin with, but it really feels like a form of strength training to me, not just a recovery activity?

OK, ramble over. I've had a lot of coffee. Sorry.

SuperCrsa

I think these are great questions and I would love to hear some responses! So BUMP!

But re question 1: Yes definitely yes, I am eating at a deficit and started a program 11 weeks ago and I have seen a big amount of strength gains! Its so awesome :happy: I am eating at TDEE - 20% and have seen this happening for me.

jayaprathappsg

To answer #1, even if you are below your calorie limit, you can build lean muscle by eating enough protein and good fat and strength training(planks, weights, TRX etc). This of course means you will be eating a limited amount of carbs to stay within your goal...
#2, yes, body weight exercises like squats, push ups and planks, resistance bands, trx etc are good strength training exercises along with weights(dumb bells, bar bells, kettle bells, body bags). Again try to do more than 10 reps per round
#3, not sure...


I suggest you follow the iifym method... Check my blog for more details

favoritenut

bump, these are interesting, would like to hear responses...

ingraha

Thanks for all these good questions. I wonder all the same things. I am not even sure where I want my goal weight to be.... I have lost almost 30 pounds and am near my "first" goal, but I have flab which I don't know if would be so bad or go away if I had more muscle or if its still just fat. Not sure if I have to go to maintenance before I can have muscle. I am much stronger than I was months ago but I dont do much weight training right now, have just started very light things. I have been concentrating on cardio up to now and now am trying to figure out how to gain muscle mass without bulkiness. I used to weight train a lot and all that muscle instantly turned to fat when I had the back surgery and couldnt move well for several months.
I am a 59 year old woman so my goals are to be not flabby, to have strong bones, and be able to walk well into my nineties and not be in fear of falling as I get older.

beekay70

Regarding question 1, you can and will get stronger without gaining muscle.

Regarding question 2, lifting heavy is relative. Your rep range will depend on your goals, but "lifting heavy" means that it is difficult to complete that rep range with the weight that you are using. I think for maintaining lean mass, which is what most people who are losing weight are trying to do, lifting for 3-8 reps is probably appropriate with a weight that is appropriate for that range.

As for question 3, I don't know anything about NROLFW, but I can't see how Pilates would be bad but I wouldn't consider it weight training. Maybe more of a conditioning thing. But I know about as much about Pilates as I do NROLFW.

lms333

I think those are great questions too. But in the end, I'd say to do what's right for you and don't worry about the details. People who write books are not necessarily experts and they do have their own opinions. If you're getting worked, then carry on! Ha ha

action_figure

Seriously, I am not going to be offended at all if you snark away at me. I've lurked enough on this and other fitness forums to recognize how silly these questions are (and that this is waaay too long of a post). But I've always been confused about some of the lingo/advice around "lifting heavy" and building muscle.

1) The stupidest question: Can you get stronger without "gaining muscle?" (Don't worry, I do want to start gaining muscle--I am just curious). I ask because I'm currently eating at a slight deficit/close to maintenance level, so I know don't have enough of a surplus to increase the amount of muscle I have. But by weight training am I still increasing the amount of STRENGTH I have? I've noticed that I can complete more reps, do more pushups, lift heavier weights, and am feeling stronger. But, again, I thought that you needed a caloric surplus to actually build muscle--am I just strengthening the muscle mass I currently have, or is that not a thing?

2) Tell me exactly what "lifting heavy," which apparently is what we are all supposed to do, means to you. I typically chose weights that allow me to to do no more than 8-12 reps at a time, for 2-3 sets. However, I have zero interest in things like serious Olympic-style lifting or Crossfit or whatever--which I what I picture when I hear the term. What about bodyweight exercises like push-ups (which are still challenging for me)--are those part of a "lifting heavy" routine?

3) I recently read The New Rules of Lifting for Women and it was very eye-opening to me. One thing the author wasn't especially keen on was Pilates as a form of strength training (he sees it as more of a recovery activity, it seems). While it isn't heavy lifting, the fusion Pilates class I attend is super intense, adding plyometrics and body-weight exercises on top of traditional Pilates stuff. By the end of the class all of my muscles are shaking and totally exhausted, and overall it does wonders for the occasional back pain I sometimes get from scoliosis. Maybe I am just not very strong to begin with, but it really feels like a form of strength training to me, not just a recovery activity?

OK, ramble over. I've had a lot of coffee. Sorry.

Especially for n00bs, you do get stronger without gaining muscle mass. Your muscles get more efficient at performing the task. As far as "lifting heavy", I think pushups, especially the modified ones (narrow grip, diamond, etc.) and pullups are certainly "heavy enough" whatever that means to count. If it gets "too easy" at some point and you still want to do it, wear a weight vest for your pullups and have a small child lay on your back for pushups. That's how I got my planks better. I called my six year old in to help me do "kid planks".

karllundy

beekay70 had some sensible answers. For me personally, #1 was/is very true. I have lost a lot of weight, not gained appreciable muscle and am much stronger than I was 18 months ago when I first started lifting.

jpierc

1. You can gain strength at a deficit. However, these strength gains will be limited and will happen only at the beginning. I have heard this referred to as "Newbie Gains". This is not meant to be insulting or degrading. It is only meant to reference the time where your body is adjusting to strength training.

2. Heavy lifting - picking up heavy stuff. If for you that is 3x8 at 25 lbs, that is heavy lifting. If it means 5x5 at 415 lbs, that is heavy lifting. To me, it is picking a weight where you can only lift it at most 5-6 times and repeating that weight 3-5 sets. Then, the next time, add weight (~5 lbs) and doing it again. If you fail to get all the reps on all the sets, repeat the weight next time. If you fail at the same weight 3 times in a row, back down some amount and start again. (Sorry, slipped into my exercise routine and not answering the questions. Forgive me.)

3. If you are shaking after exercising, you're doing something right. At the end of exercise, if you walk away without "feeling it", you didn't do enough.

All in all, the basic theory I work by is to pick up heavy stuff on a regular basis and throw in some short high-intensity cardio just to break things up. I am not the strongest guy in the world (I'm probably pretty weak compared to some of the monsters on here), but if you're giving it everything you have, and you do this 3-5 times a week, it doesn't matter what you are doing. You will see results.

Keep kicking butt. You'll get where you want to be.

Rambo529

1) Yes, you can gain "strength" while on a slight deficit. You won't pack on 20 pounds of muscle doing so, but if you stick with it and push yourself you will be able to lift heavier than before, which means you are stronger. Regarding putting on actual muscle, you need to be on a surplus to put on a significant amount of mass.

2) Lifting heavy is a relative term to you. If you do 12 reps with little to no effort, I suggest increasing the weight. What is heavy to you isn't heavy to the next person. For example, I can squat 205x4, while my friend can only squat 125x4. That's heavy for her, while the 205 is heavy for me. If you are doing dumbbell bench and can do (one dumbbell's weight) 30x12 with minimal effort, try 35's and see how that goes.

3) Pilates is one form of strength training, but I agree with the author of NRLW and it's more of a recovery-type exercise as opposed to increasing your strength. The body weight exercises will help you, but eventually they'l be too easy. It's good for a variety though. I implement yoga into my routine occasionally to help with my flexibility and maintain my strength if on a rest week.

Hope these help!

msf74

1. Yes, you can. It's because of neuro-muscular adaptation - you are essentially training your existing muscle and central nervous system to lift a heavier weight using the resources you currently have. At some point however you need to add more muscle if you want to get stronger.

2. Lifting heavy is lifting a weight which is sufficient to cause the last few reps within the desired rep range you have chosen (up to 20 reps) to be executed with good form.

3. A crucial component of a resistance training programme is progressively overloading your muscles over time. Whilst Pilates can do this over the short term with an untrained individual it proves difficult over the long term and is therefore of limited scope and application.

Collier78

In for the responses!

tb801

1-
Neuromuscular gains are possible while in a deficit. So although you may not be gaining muscle, per se, you can be getting stronger, especially in beginners. Rank beginners also have the chance, though not likely, of gaining muscle while losing fat. Wouldn't count on that though.

2-
Lifting heavy can mean a lot of different things. Anywhere from 1-8 reps maybe. For your main movements you can do, say 6 to 8 reps, and for accessory stuff do 8-12. BW stuff can be considered heavy if the max number you can complete falls in that range, but if you can do 20 push ups no problem you would need to add resistance to the movement somehow.

3-
Pilates can be a great tool. It can burn some cals and help with a lot of other things. Just make sure that you're including basic weight training in there as well, assuming maintaining strength, muscle mass, and good looks are priorities. They probably give your muscles more of an aerobic, endurance workout vs an anaerobic strength workout.

Hope that makes sense. Good luck to you

action_figure

Oh, I forgot to mention! They say you can't gain muscle while losing fat, and typically that is true, however, for overweight beginners (and recent research suggests maybe especially female overweight beginners), have a near-superpower where for a while they CAN actually gain muscle mass while at a caloric deficit. N00b gains and the extra calories you get from burning fat for energy will let you see modest muscle gains if you eat enough protein and are following a good progressive overload program. Edit, it only lasts for a while though and soon you have to join the rest of us mere mortals.

Leaping_Lemur

Bump. (I don't have anything substantive to add, besides just repeating what others have said: you'll gain strength early on, and lifting heavy is relative.)

FerretBuellerr

Bump

AllanMisner

1) Yes, you can get stronger by improving the effectiveness and efficiency of your existing muscles. You may see some increase in size of those muscles (not much but some), but you won't be adding muscle.

2) Heavy means 70 - 80 of your one rep max. Typically, that is the amount you can do 5 - 8 times with good form. Heavy also means doing compound movements (squats and deadlifts). Body weight exercises are good (especially pull ups) but once you're able to do more than 10 (or 30 seconds of an isometric exercise like planks) it is best to start adding weight. You don't have to do the more dynamic olympic lifts but they can add to your functional capacity once you're ready for them.

3) I've heard good things about the New Rules books (from men and women).

Sarge516

1) The stupidest question: Can you get stronger without "gaining muscle?" (Don't worry, I do want to start gaining muscle--I am just curious). I ask because I'm currently eating at a slight deficit/close to maintenance level, so I know don't have enough of a surplus to increase the amount of muscle I have. But by weight training am I still increasing the amount of STRENGTH I have? I've noticed that I can complete more reps, do more pushups, lift heavier weights, and am feeling stronger. But, again, I thought that you needed a caloric surplus to actually build muscle--am I just strengthening the muscle mass I currently have, or is that not a thing?

The first thing to improve when you start lifting is the "communication" between the nerves and the muscles. Think of it as the body being able to use more of the muscle you already have as the first step in strength gains. You may not have gained any muscle mass at all at that time.

2) Tell me exactly what "lifting heavy," which apparently is what we are all supposed to do, means to you. I typically chose weights that allow me to to do no more than 8-12 reps at a time, for 2-3 sets. However, I have zero interest in things like serious Olympic-style lifting or Crossfit or whatever--which I what I picture when I hear the term. What about bodyweight exercises like push-ups (which are still challenging for me)--are those part of a "lifting heavy" routine?

I would classify "lifting heavy" as resistance/weight training. I suppose in the begninning, that CAN mean body weight exercises, but generally speaking, it involves weight lifting. Strength training is a huge benefit to anyone that does it. Male or female, young or old. It's part of a healthy lifestyle. I could go on and on about the benefits, but that's a whole topic on it's own.

3) I recently read The New Rules of Lifting for Women and it was very eye-opening to me. One thing the author wasn't especially keen on was Pilates as a form of strength training (he sees it as more of a recovery activity, it seems). While it isn't heavy lifting, the fusion Pilates class I attend is super intense, adding plyometrics and body-weight exercises on top of traditional Pilates stuff. By the end of the class all of my muscles are shaking and totally exhausted, and overall it does wonders for the occasional back pain I sometimes get from scoliosis. Maybe I am just not very strong to begin with, but it really feels like a form of strength training to me, not just a recovery activity?

I wouldn't bother to "classify" your class, who cares? Any activity is good activity -- better than channel surfing on the easy chair. Keep up with it!

A comprehensive fitness plan involves a good diet (clean eating), strength training, cardio training, and flexibility training.

I am a Canfitpro Certified Personal Trainer.

JoRocka

Seriously, I am not going to be offended at all if you snark away at me. I've lurked enough on this and other fitness forums to recognize how silly these questions are (and that this is waaay too long of a post). But I've always been confused about some of the lingo/advice around "lifting heavy" and building muscle.

We aren't snarky with the 'stupid questions' we are more snarky with people who ask either A> very researchable questions or B. more importantly - ask then ignore what we say anyway. that's annoying LOL- or they ask in a way that is just not well thought out- you seem to be fairly intersted in educating yourself and they are well thought out.

1) The stupidest question: Can you get stronger without "gaining muscle?"

YES- to a certain extent. doing more push ups- or more reps is a function of muscle endurance- not just strenght- so you will get stronger to an extent- but it has more to do with endurance.
In order to get stronger you need to progressively load- this can be done with variations or heavier weights- and yes you can get stronger to a point without building mass- but at some point- you need to adjust calories to allow you to build a bit. You will stall otherwise. It happens. Remember bigger engines more more stuff.

2) Tell me exactly what "lifting heavy," which apparently is what we are all supposed to do, means to you.

Lifting heavy is a rep range- it's not a specific weight- it's relative to each person.
1-8 = heavy lifting
If you you can lift it 10-15 times it isn't heavy- you are training muscle endurance.

secondly it isn't what we are ALL SUPPOSED to do- it's just REALLY REALLY good for you and a lot of "bang for your buck" kind of work. It works- it's solid- it gets results and it gets them in a reasonable time frame (even though still- its' slow compared to what people expect)

3) I recently read The New Rules of Lifting for Women and it was very eye-opening to me. One thing the author wasn't especially keen on was Pilates as a form of strength training (he sees it as more of a recovery activity, it seems). While it isn't heavy lifting, the fusion Pilates class I attend is super intense, adding plyometrics and body-weight exercises on top of traditional Pilates stuff. By the end of the class all of my muscles are shaking and totally exhausted, and overall it does wonders for the occasional back pain I sometimes get from scoliosis. Maybe I am just not very strong to begin with, but it really feels like a form of strength training to me, not just a recovery activity?

Big picture: it is more along the lines of a muscle endurance type deal- but there is a certain amount of strength you need for it- and if you haven't been doing it- it's going to be building strength. So if it's new to you- you will build strength- as you do it more- it doesn't get easier- you get better... which is why if you want to get stronger you need to do more advanced moves- to challenge your body- it doesn't change without increased stimulus. This is why people wander around the gym for years without ever changing their bodies- because they never stress the body to change- it craves homeostasis- so change comes from applying stress/pressure/increased load.

OK, ramble over. I've had a lot of coffee. Sorry.

rubbish- there is no such thing as too much coffee... drink away wink wink nudge nudge- enable enable enable.

MissKitty9

Bump, esp. for the Pilates question (Pilates is my main form of exercise, & I'm definitely stronger with more visible muscle! my instructor makes it TOUGH for us)