Is DOMS necessary?
likitisplit
Posts: 9,420 Member
I've been wondering. Is DOMS really necessary?
I've running for a year now. The result is visible muscle gain and I'm obviously a lot stronger and more stable through my core, hips, legs and feet. However, until my half-marathon training long runs (and those were only once a week), there was little soreness after the workouts (and I worked HARD on some of them).
How come, when I lift, it's expected that I won't be able to raise my arms all the way the next day, etc.? I've never questioned this until now and wanted to know whether there was science behind that result or whether that was just a traditional expectation, like women doing high reps at a low weight.
I've running for a year now. The result is visible muscle gain and I'm obviously a lot stronger and more stable through my core, hips, legs and feet. However, until my half-marathon training long runs (and those were only once a week), there was little soreness after the workouts (and I worked HARD on some of them).
How come, when I lift, it's expected that I won't be able to raise my arms all the way the next day, etc.? I've never questioned this until now and wanted to know whether there was science behind that result or whether that was just a traditional expectation, like women doing high reps at a low weight.
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Replies
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There is a science behind DOMS. Essentially, when lifting, you are causing microtears in your muscle. The DOMS feeling is essentially bruising (not exactly, but essentially). The more you lift heavy, the less DOMS you feel (usually). Usually because your pain threshold goes up.
Hope that helps!0 -
DOMS is a physical response to the work. Without progressive work, you won't see results. That said, your body will adapt to your new work loads and get better at it, resulting in less DOMS. In fact, most lifters miss DOMS when they subside. The no pain no gain mantra should have one more phrase in the middle to read, no pain no rest no gain. Let DOMS tell you when to go back at it, then hit it hard again. Your muscles will adapt and you'll be better for it.0
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No, DOMS is not necessary. Even when progressing, after lifting for quite a while, I stopped getting DOMS. It wasn't because I was slacking or didn't get a good workout in. I wouldn't get them even when I upped the weight I was lifting. After a while, you may not get them anymore. Stretching has some to do with it I'm sure and your body adapting.0
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That's what my understanding was. But I get the same microtears when I run, and I can still walk up stairs without pain.
My understanding is that the microtears are what cause muscle growth and why rest/crosstraining days are necessary (even if you feel "good," because it allows your body a chance to repair and build) and why stretching is beneficial (to ensure that the new muscle is aligned when it's laid down).
ETA: And sorry if this seems really basic.
ETA: And thank you for reading and responding!0 -
Great info, wondering the same myself at times.0
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I've been wondering. Is DOMS really necessary?
I've run for a year now. The result is visible muscle gain and I'm obviously a lot stronger and more stable through my core, hips, legs and feet. However, until my half-marathon training long runs (and those were only once a week), there was little soreness after the workouts (and I worked HARD on some of them).
How come, when I lift, it's expected that I won't be able to raise my arms all the way the next day, etc.? I've never questioned this until now and wanted to know whether there was science behind that result or whether that was just a traditional expectation, like women doing high reps at a low weight.
If you can't lift your arms, you overworked yourself. Going to failure, "burnout sets," it's all broscience that is not necessary to grow and get stronger.0 -
DOMS is a physical response to the work. Without progressive work, you won't see results. That said, your body will adapt to your new work loads and get better at it, resulting in less DOMS. In fact, most lifters miss DOMS when they subside. The no pain no gain mantra should have one more phrase in the middle to read, no pain no rest no gain. Let DOMS tell you when to go back at it, then hit it hard again. Your muscles will adapt and you'll be better for it.
What's enough rest? I was just having a similar conversation- and I'm not sure what I should be doing. I had a pretty intense workout the other day (didn't realize it at the time) and I could hardly move yesterday. I had trouble getting up from a sitting position, trouble getting into a sitting position- I was a hobbling mess. I drank a lot of water yesterday and got a lot of sleep last night. I'm still sore, but less sore than yesterday. Do I wait until I no longer feel sore at all? Or, if I'm feeling a little better today, go in?0 -
That's what my understanding was. But I get the same microtears when I run, and I can still walk up stairs without pain.
My understanding is that the microtears are what cause muscle growth and why rest/crosstraining days are necessary (even if you feel "good," because it allows your body a chance to repair and build) and why stretching is beneficial (to ensure that the new muscle is aligned when it's laid down).
ETA: And sorry if this seems really basic.
ETA: And thank you for reading and responding!
Lifting weights and running are very different, it's not putting your muscles under exactly the same type of stress. That's potentially why you weren't seeing DOMS, more of a lactic acid buildup. Plus you have been running for a year (and are therefore more used to the "pain" of running), and not as used to lifting (yet), so you feel it more.0 -
I've been wondering. Is DOMS really necessary?
I've running for a year now. The result is visible muscle gain and I'm obviously a lot stronger and more stable through my core, hips, legs and feet. However, until my half-marathon training long runs (and those were only once a week), there was little soreness after the workouts (and I worked HARD on some of them).
How come, when I lift, it's expected that I won't be able to raise my arms all the way the next day, etc.? I've never questioned this until now and wanted to know whether there was science behind that result or whether that was just a traditional expectation, like women doing high reps at a low weight.
who says it's expected?
being sore is not an indicator of a good workout- all it means is you are using muscles you haven't used in a while.
If I started running again- like really running- I'd be sore too. And I'm in great shape... I lift 4-5 days a week. I'm never really incapacitatingly sore. maybe a little crunchy and slow- but nothing a good massage or foam roller couldn't work out.0 -
No, it's not.0
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That's what my understanding was. But I get the same microtears when I run, and I can still walk up stairs without pain.
My understanding is that the microtears are what cause muscle growth and why rest/crosstraining days are necessary (even if you feel "good," because it allows your body a chance to repair and build) and why stretching is beneficial (to ensure that the new muscle is aligned when it's laid down).
ETA: And sorry if this seems really basic.
ETA: And thank you for reading and responding!
The difference is your muscles (slow twitch) were already conditioned from your prior walking and running. Each run now is done with conditioned legs. When you lift weights, you're activating the fast twitch muscle (different fibers) which aren't conditioned from running. Your fast twitch muscle will reach a level of conditioning where DOMS will subside and may even go away.0 -
DOMS is a physical response to the work. Without progressive work, you won't see results. That said, your body will adapt to your new work loads and get better at it, resulting in less DOMS. In fact, most lifters miss DOMS when they subside. The no pain no gain mantra should have one more phrase in the middle to read, no pain no rest no gain. Let DOMS tell you when to go back at it, then hit it hard again. Your muscles will adapt and you'll be better for it.
What's enough rest? I was just having a similar conversation- and I'm not sure what I should be doing. I had a pretty intense workout the other day (didn't realize it at the time) and I could hardly move yesterday. I had trouble getting up from a sitting position, trouble getting into a sitting position- I was a hobbling mess. I drank a lot of water yesterday and got a lot of sleep last night. I'm still sore, but less sore than yesterday. Do I wait until I no longer feel sore at all? Or, if I'm feeling a little better today, go in?
Early on, I'd give it 72 hours between working sessions. Once your muscles adapt, you'll be able to drop it to 48 hours. If you're really giving your all and feel fully recovered in 48 hours, it may be time to look into a split routine or make some changes to the overall program to keep getting results.0 -
DOMS is not necessary, nor does it indicate how much or how well you worked out.0
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That's what my understanding was. But I get the same microtears when I run, and I can still walk up stairs without pain.
Where do you feel the DOMS when you lift? I'd assume part of why you don't get a similar feeling after running and then walking up stairs is that movement has become commonplace with your body. The majority of people walk regularly enough that even if you were a little sore after a run, you're likely to heal overnight. Other less-used muscles might take longer.0 -
The difference is your muscles (slow twitch) were already conditioned from your prior walking and running. Each run now is done with conditioned legs. When you lift weights, you're activating the fast twitch muscle (different fibers) which aren't conditioned from running. Your fast twitch muscle will reach a level of conditioning where DOMS will subside and may even go away.
I don't want to be argumentative but when I started running, it wasn't on conditioned legs. I started running when it was tough to walk a mile. Running itself was HARD. 30 seconds was HARD. I was hugely overweight and could barely lift my feet. However, I was never sore after.
At the same time, if I did squats and lunges, I'd feel it the next day.
When I got up to a 10 mile base, I started speed work. Intervals, specifically to build fast twitch fibers. I'd run until I couldn't breathe. I could barely lift my legs on the last sprint. The cool-down run was one of the toughest workouts of my life. Never sore after.
I was doing New Rules of Lifting for Women 3X/week and was sore the next day.
After I started running 7-12 miles, the next day felt a lot like "leg day" but, as I said that was once a week, and most of my muscle building had already been accomplished with no soreness.0 -
The difference is your muscles (slow twitch) were already conditioned from your prior walking and running. Each run now is done with conditioned legs. When you lift weights, you're activating the fast twitch muscle (different fibers) which aren't conditioned from running. Your fast twitch muscle will reach a level of conditioning where DOMS will subside and may even go away.
I don't want to be argumentative but when I started running, it wasn't on conditioned legs. I started running when it was tough to walk a mile. Running itself was HARD. 30 seconds was HARD. I was hugely overweight and could barely lift my feet. However, I was never sore after.
At the same time, if I did squats and lunges, I'd feel it the next day.
When I got up to a 10 mile base, I started speed work. Intervals, specifically to build fast twitch fibers. I'd run until I couldn't breathe. I could barely lift my legs on the last sprint. The cool-down run was one of the toughest workouts of my life. Never sore after.
I was doing New Rules of Lifting for Women 3X/week and was sore the next day.
After I started running 7-12 miles, the next day felt a lot like "leg day" but, as I said that was once a week, and most of my muscle building had already been accomplished with no soreness.
I get where you're coming from, but still different muscles and different muscle fibers. Yes, running sprints with rests between would work fast twitch muscle (some), it isn't putting the same load that you're getting lifting. Nor is it working in the same plane (requiring different muscles). My guess is your intervals included slow running/jogging rests.
To say you weren't conditioned for forward movement prior to running isn't true. You've walked most of your life, and your training over time was generally progressive (especially once you started running). Run a marathon when you haven't adequately built of the muscles for it and you'll get one hell of a DOMS effect.
As a little experiment, try this: On a running day with legs fully recovered, find a long hill that is at a grade greater than 20%. Do a short warm up like you would for a weight session. Sprint (running for your life hard) for ten to fifteen seconds, stop and rest (no walking or jogging) for 30 - 45 seconds. Repeat this ten times. Walk back down the hill for your cool down and stretch as you normally would after a weight training session.0 -
The difference is your muscles (slow twitch) were already conditioned from your prior walking and running. Each run now is done with conditioned legs. When you lift weights, you're activating the fast twitch muscle (different fibers) which aren't conditioned from running. Your fast twitch muscle will reach a level of conditioning where DOMS will subside and may even go away.
I don't want to be argumentative but when I started running, it wasn't on conditioned legs. I started running when it was tough to walk a mile. Running itself was HARD. 30 seconds was HARD. I was hugely overweight and could barely lift my feet. However, I was never sore after.
At the same time, if I did squats and lunges, I'd feel it the next day.
When I got up to a 10 mile base, I started speed work. Intervals, specifically to build fast twitch fibers. I'd run until I couldn't breathe. I could barely lift my legs on the last sprint. The cool-down run was one of the toughest workouts of my life. Never sore after.
I was doing New Rules of Lifting for Women 3X/week and was sore the next day.
After I started running 7-12 miles, the next day felt a lot like "leg day" but, as I said that was once a week, and most of my muscle building had already been accomplished with no soreness.
I get where you're coming from, but still different muscles and different muscle fibers. Yes, running sprints with rests between would work fast twitch muscle (some), it isn't putting the same load that you're getting lifting. Nor is it working in the same plane (requiring different muscles). My guess is your intervals included slow running/jogging rests.
To say you weren't conditioned for forward movement prior to running isn't true. You've walked most of your life, and your training over time was generally progressive (especially once you started running). Run a marathon when you haven't adequately built of the muscles for it and you'll get one hell of a DOMS effect.
As a little experiment, try this: On a running day with legs fully recovered, find a long hill that is at a grade greater than 20%. Do a short warm up like you would for a weight session. Sprint (running for your life hard) for ten to fifteen seconds, stop and rest (no walking or jogging) for 30 - 45 seconds. Repeat this ten times. Walk back down the hill for your cool down and stretch as you normally would after a weight training session.
I'll do that. I need to work in some hill work anyway.
Well, I'm not sure I can find a hill that long :noway:
And thanks for the insights!0 -
But that kind of brings me to the second half of the question:
That would work me to failure. However, I've only worked to failure in running a couple of dozen times. But, I've seen more gains with this than I've ever seen weight training.
My understanding is that low weight, high reps is inefficient, but wouldn't that be the equivalent of "long, slow runs"? Would it make sense to do that with a one "ten reps to failure" session each week?0 -
At some level endurance and speed meet up. If you do nothing but run long slow workouts, you'll eventually get faster at running long slow distances. Similarly, if you do nothing but high rep weight work, you'll get better at that high rep low weight lifting. There will obviously be some carryover when you scale down either workout (you'll also be faster over a short distance than you were originally even though you didn't train it specifically).But that kind of brings me to the second half of the question:
That would work me to failure. However, I've only worked to failure in running a couple of dozen times. But, I've seen more gains with this than I've ever seen weight training.
My understanding is that low weight, high reps is inefficient, but wouldn't that be the equivalent of "long, slow runs"? Would it make sense to do that with a one "ten reps to failure" session each week?0 -
Just to say, I go it very sore after doing a short run this week. Brand new runner. It was outside.0
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But that kind of brings me to the second half of the question:
That would work me to failure. However, I've only worked to failure in running a couple of dozen times. But, I've seen more gains with this than I've ever seen weight training.
My understanding is that low weight, high reps is inefficient, but wouldn't that be the equivalent of "long, slow runs"? Would it make sense to do that with a one "ten reps to failure" session each week?
Absolutely! You should mix up your program from time to time to work different muscles, angles and muscle fibers. I guess it comes down to what you really want to accomplish. There are several different modalities of fitness. And each somewhat complements the rest. You like to run, weights can help you, as can balance or flexibility training.
What are your training goals?0 -
That's what my understanding was. But I get the same microtears when I run, and I can still walk up stairs without pain.
My understanding is that the microtears are what cause muscle growth and why rest/crosstraining days are necessary (even if you feel "good," because it allows your body a chance to repair and build) and why stretching is beneficial (to ensure that the new muscle is aligned when it's laid down).
ETA: And sorry if this seems really basic.
ETA: And thank you for reading and responding!
That's a different reason for the DOMS.
Unless you are doing hill sprints or interval training - you are not causing microtears because of weight overload of muscles.
Same reason of no overload that running rarely adds muscle except perhaps at very beginning, unless not eating at a deficit. You are merely making the muscle stronger, and storing more glucose with attached water for longer runs, that's bigger, but not more of it.
You are having endurance overload, and while the feeling might have been close, it was different reasons. Muscle had a lot of lactic acid interaction, and even though that's gone, they were damaged. Just the excess chemical reactions going on cause that soreness too.
Never heard that myth about stretching. Ya, not at all.
Just caught the recommendation for the right hill sprints to compare, that'll point out the difference.
Most do what they think is HIIT with way too long of hard portion and not long enough recover session. HIIT should be 1:3, with max time 15-45 sec of hard time. And the easy time after a 15 sec uphill should be walking back down, because jogging down a hill is still hard.
That will mimic a lifting workout closest.
And that's exactly why HIIT started out as a recommendation for cardio only folks that didn't want to weight lift - until it turned in to a misapplied fad lately.
If you have a HRM, the difference should stand out even more, should reach same high anaerobic HR on both workouts.0 -
But that kind of brings me to the second half of the question:
That would work me to failure. However, I've only worked to failure in running a couple of dozen times. But, I've seen more gains with this than I've ever seen weight training.
My understanding is that low weight, high reps is inefficient, but wouldn't that be the equivalent of "long, slow runs"? Would it make sense to do that with a one "ten reps to failure" session each week?
Inefficient for what? Different types of training are used for different goals. Long, slow runs aren't muscular training. They're cardiovascular training. Yes, you're using muscles, but any muscle development is ancillary to the actual work being performed, much like the meager cardio benefit of extended lifting sets.0 -
But that kind of brings me to the second half of the question:
That would work me to failure. However, I've only worked to failure in running a couple of dozen times. But, I've seen more gains with this than I've ever seen weight training.
My understanding is that low weight, high reps is inefficient, but wouldn't that be the equivalent of "long, slow runs"? Would it make sense to do that with a one "ten reps to failure" session each week?
Failure in what way - from the overload of weight, or from time on long run?
What were the gains you saw?
And if your weight lifting with legs is after a run day that is too long or too hard - then you weren't able to do a proper lifting session as legs were too tired. That would prevent you from seeing as good a gains from it as you could.
Low weight high reps is inefficient to increasing strength or growth as well as lower reps higher weight would.
But your long slow run is also training your aerobic fat burning system, which is a totally different focus from lifting. You need that system trained well for endurance events. And as someone mentioned, that's why you can get faster going slower HR.
But a short session of hill sprints or proper HIIT would be useful. If no deficit then you can gain muscle, you'll raise your lactate threshold point, thereby increasing your aerobic range. You'll increase your VO2max, increasing the ratio range of energy use coming from fat to carb ratio before it crosses over.
Even a short fasted run in the morning at slow pace can train the body to slip in to better fat burning mode quicker, usually takes 30 min to get there.0 -
The thing is that I've been running for a year, but have been in and out of the gym for almost 20 years. No matter what my goals were, I didn't see an increase of strength/endurance the way I've seen them with running. I can run up hills more easily faster/I can run a half marathon more easily/faster.
I've never been able to squat my body weight. I'm working on that again...my goals right now are general fitness and cross training for better form/injury protection.0 -
Just to say, I go it very sore after doing a short run this week. Brand new runner. It was outside.
You probably need to slow down. How long was your run?0 -
The thing is that I've been running for a year, but have been in and out of the gym for almost 20 years. No matter what my goals were, I didn't see an increase of strength/endurance the way I've seen them with running. I can run up hills more easily faster/I can run a half marathon more easily/faster.
I've never been able to squat my body weight. I'm working on that again...my goals right now are general fitness and cross training for better form/injury protection.
Aerobic system to use the muscle more effectively for cardio improves much faster than lifting performance.
Especially when starting out.
Gains on the top end require a whole lot more of doing things correctly no matter what, you'll reach that point in running too, performance will be much harder to improve.0 -
Read much of this thread. Nothing to add, just wanted to say that I'm glad to hear. Decades ago, strength training resulted in DOMS every single time.
I just restarted a couple months ago and DOMS became a thing of the past after the first month. I thought that I wasn't pushing myself hard enough. Then I asked around and was told the DOMS disappearing =/= slacking. Plus, I've been tracking my progress and I think it's been great.
Seeing this thread increases my already sufficient comfort level that I'm doing good even though I rarely get DOMS now.0 -
That's what my understanding was. But I get the same microtears when I run, and I can still walk up stairs without pain.
My understanding is that the microtears are what cause muscle growth and why rest/crosstraining days are necessary (even if you feel "good," because it allows your body a chance to repair and build) and why stretching is beneficial (to ensure that the new muscle is aligned when it's laid down).
ETA: And sorry if this seems really basic.
ETA: And thank you for reading and responding!
That's a different reason for the DOMS.
Unless you are doing hill sprints or interval training - you are not causing microtears because of weight overload of muscles.
Same reason of no overload that running rarely adds muscle except perhaps at very beginning, unless not eating at a deficit. You are merely making the muscle stronger, and storing more glucose with attached water for longer runs, that's bigger, but not more of it.
You are having endurance overload, and while the feeling might have been close, it was different reasons. Muscle had a lot of lactic acid interaction, and even though that's gone, they were damaged. Just the excess chemical reactions going on cause that soreness too.
Never heard that myth about stretching. Ya, not at all.
Just caught the recommendation for the right hill sprints to compare, that'll point out the difference.
Most do what they think is HIIT with way too long of hard portion and not long enough recover session. HIIT should be 1:3, with max time 15-45 sec of hard time. And the easy time after a 15 sec uphill should be walking back down, because jogging down a hill is still hard.
That will mimic a lifting workout closest.
And that's exactly why HIIT started out as a recommendation for cardio only folks that didn't want to weight lift - until it turned in to a misapplied fad lately.
If you have a HRM, the difference should stand out even more, should reach same high anaerobic HR on both workouts.
I run to the edge of an asthma attack and then walk because that allows me to recover. My experience is that you want a clear definition between hard and easy in order to get the most gains in running. If you are doing an easy run, it should be EASY. If you are doing an interval, you should push as hard as you can.
Once again, thank you for all your insight. Most of my knowledge about muscle development has been from gym trainers, so there's a healthy amount of bro science mixed in there. It really helps when I can ask questions and sort it all out.0 -
I run to the edge of an asthma attack and then walk because that allows me to recover. My experience is that you want a clear definition between hard and easy in order to get the most gains in running. If you are doing an easy run, it should be EASY. If you are doing an interval, you should push as hard as you can.
Once again, thank you for all your insight. Most of my knowledge about muscle development has been from gym trainers, so there's a healthy amount of bro science mixed in there. It really helps when I can ask questions and sort it all out.
I agree, if you pushed hard enough for 15 sec, you shouldn't be able to jog as recovery, at least not for the whole 45 sec, walking normal at start is hard enough.
Same as if you just did 5 squats with enough weight to almost failure of good form, doing a bunch more at 1/2 weight during the "rest" would never work either. If you somehow accomplished it, you ain't doing that higher weight for 5 more reps, that's for sure.
And HR is excellent means of telling what is going on.
Just as you can have an off day lifting and can't hit your normal weight or reps, that stands out you must have been tired, then you can examine what messed you up.
But sprints as hard as you can will generally "feel" the same, it's as hard as you can go after all. Though you do learn to tell if you can hit that 15 sec the whole time.
But seeing either the pace obtained (awfully hard) or the maxHR reached (much easier) will show clearly if you had an on or off day.
So same as lifting with tired muscle results in not actually overloading it for best benefit of the lifting, not hitting that high HR means not a real useful workout for intended purpose.
Time to examine what made you tired - lifting prior day, no sleep, bad meal day or no carbs prior, long run prior day, ect.
Regarding the gym, you can plateau in performance, and eventually need to eat in surplus to gain more muscle if progress is desired on the bar.0
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