Raw eggs... safe or not?

SheFoxyLady

I've been planning to make a chocolate mousse 'cake' (Marquise au chocolat to be exact - similar to the one of David Lebovitz if any one desires to learn more about it davidlebovitz.com/2010/10/french-chocolate-mousse-cake-recipe/ ) for a christmas family reunion, which will be attended by people ranging from the age of 6 to 72. The basic recipe is similar to the one of a chocolate mousse omitting the yolks: however, a certain period has to elapse before consumption of the final product. Like... 3 days. This waiting period ultimately results in an absolutely incredible texture (the texture isn't bad at all a day after, but it truly is excellent 3 days later).

I know the risks of 'raw eggs' and have read a series of debates upon them - I know it is preferable to use fresh ones, which I plan on doing, and to avoid excessive handling or washing (yes) as it could disintegrate a pre-existing protection 'barrier'.

Should I take the risk to serve whipped raw eggs that have been mixed with burning chocolate (does it actually cook them?) to my company or is it preferable to sacrifice a bit of texture and to serve it a day later? Again, I need to insist about their ages, despite the fact that they all have an excellent health...

SheFoxyLady

I mean, I talked with the concerned parties and they told me that they would prefer to have me doing it a day before instead of three (which I totally understand. It would be quite a pity to be sick on Christmas ). But in itself, is there any kind of harm to eat raw eggs that have been separated from the shell a couple of days later?

cfredz

arent there raw eggs in egg nog? i think its safe

micheleb15

I would eat raw cookie dough and cake batter by the bowlful, but that's my decision and doesn't effect others. I don't really understand the issue with the days - it's going to be in the fridge all three days right? Most salmonella comes from the outside of the egg, so make sure to wash them well and use care when handling,

Also, you have to temper the chocolate and eggs - if you cook them you did it wrong and no one wants scrambled eggs in their mousse.

Edited: The eggs sit out for three days or the mousse needs to sit for three days? I guess that is where I am confused.

stealthq

They're not 100% safe. The chocolate will not reliably bring the eggs to a safe temperature.

It's like a lot of food poisoning issues. The likelihood of disease-causing contamination is low. Even lower if you're talking about severe food poisoning (anything beyond a couple of hours of unpleasantness). You need bacterial contamination + time to grow at storage temperature to get a culture (or toxic growth products) that can overcome the individual's immune system. That's why it's more common with the elderly, children, and immune compromised.

Storing the cake for three days, even in the fridge, before serving is a risk. One I would take for myself, and wouldn't have a problem with most of the time. But, you're hitting 2 of the risk factors - relative long storage time, plus elderly guests. I'd sacrifice the cake texture and be safe(r).

ETA - Another option is buying pasteurized shell eggs. With those, I would feel comfortable following the recipe as written. Just be super careful with washing your hands, not touching your hair or skin that you didn't just wash and then touching the food, etc.

neanderthin

I've made mousse and mousse cake for eons without a problem. Most of the bacteria would be found on the shell, it is possible to have an infected yolk or white, but the probability of that is miniscule. I suggest that you coddle the egg in a temp of at least 140 but 160 is best for a half a minute. This kills the bacteria on the shell but doesn't effect the viscosity of the inside.

SheFoxyLady

Micheleb: the 'mousse' remains in the fridge for three days, no worries . I have already tested the recipe several times on myself and to be honest, have never found myself ill after...

Mr_Knight

Keep in mind that, for eggs, "fresh from the store" is a LOT different than "fresh from the farm".

SheFoxyLady

Thanks for both other answers! I'll try the coddling technique and will talk to the other guests before once again~

SheFoxyLady

MrKnight- I know, 'fresh from the store' eggs could already have sat in a local for several weeks prior to selling... and anyway, the eggs of the nearest farm actually wind up tasting better

ldrosophila

its a risk, but unless you are giving it to children, elderly, or immunocompromised, I'd be OK with taking the risk. They make pasteurized eggs, but I find them very difficult to whip.

dbmata

safe if fresh.

SheFoxyLady

Would locally produced, fresh eggs actually be safer?

neanderthin

Would locally produced, fresh eggs actually be safer?

That's all I ever use. Make sure all the blood and feathers are cleaned off.. No seriously, do clean them regardless and if your eating raw, just coddle them to be safer.

SheFoxyLady

Would locally produced, fresh eggs actually be safer?

That's all I ever use. Make sure all the blood and feathers are cleaned off.. No seriously, do clean them regardless and if your eating raw, just coddle them to be safer.

No worries, bloodclot gelee hasn't been on my program :laugh:
I'll do then, let's just hope it'll alleviate their worries. If not, oh well, I'll sacrifice texture...

jclist1

My wife makes a killer French Silk Pie which uses raw eggs, and she only uses fresh eggs from a friend's farm, and I know what I am eating and risking. Serving it to company is always an iffy thing, but I would venture to safe that if the eggs are farm fresh and cleaned you should be okay.

rainbowbow

I believe there is a chance of food poisoning although unlikely.

I have been told (although I'm sure this isn't reliable) that salmonella is only in the yolk of affected eggs.


ETA: I had that mixed up. 1 in 20,000 eggs will be contaminated with salmonella, and it's usually in the whites.

Although I would add keeping it at proper temp for other bacteria is probably more important.

elmr34

For adults I wouldn't hesitate but for children I might err on the side of caution. I bake a lot and especially make a lot of royal icing which is basically raw egg whites and milk (and then sits unrefrigerated for days). However, nowadays most people make royal icing with MERINGUE powder (or dried egg whites) and water- because that way there is no chance of salmonella from the raw egg whites!

Another option is to use pasteurized egg whites (like the kind that come in a bottle next to the eggs in the store).

If you are looking for dried egg whites or meringue powder (they are basically the same thing) you can find them in the baking aisle. There are instructions on the back about how much egg white and water can be used to replace egg whites. These can be used in souffles, to make marshmallows, or wherever you need that ultra-fluffy thing you get from egg whites!

Just to be clear- When I am cooking for myself I eat raw eggs (and raw fish, and undercooked meat) all the time (and have never had food poisoning from these things) but if I am cooking something that will be served to a child, an elderly person, or anyone with cancer, diabetes, etc. I like to be sure that they aren't going to get sick.

firstsip

I'll have to find a source (outside of doctors AND vets I've talked to), but you're almost as likely to get struck by lightning as to get salmonella from raw eggs. Raw chicken? Definitely playing roulette. Raw eggs? It's something like 10,000 to 1 chance you'll get food poisoning.

A cursory search revealed equally biased sources: a site called "safe eggs" claiming raw eggs is responsible for most salmonella outbreaks in the US (immensely questionable, particularly when the "DON'T EAT RAW EGGS" claim has been beaten into people's heads; someone might be more likely to suspect they didn't cook their egg long enough over possible contamination of another "safe" product).

On the other hand, Mercola said 30,000 to 1 odds you'd even get it... and it's Mercola.

So I'm just going to walk away now. But I've had raw eggs in various forms and never gotten food poisoning, if it helps, and I actually am more susceptible to food-borne illness. WALK ON THE WILD SIDE.

callie006

They're not 100% safe. The chocolate will not reliably bring the eggs to a safe temperature.

It's like a lot of food poisoning issues. The likelihood of disease-causing contamination is low. Even lower if you're talking about severe food poisoning (anything beyond a couple of hours of unpleasantness). You need bacterial contamination + time to grow at storage temperature to get a culture (or toxic growth products) that can overcome the individual's immune system. That's why it's more common with the elderly, children, and immune compromised.

Storing the cake for three days, even in the fridge, before serving is a risk. One I would take for myself, and wouldn't have a problem with most of the time. But, you're hitting 2 of the risk factors - relative long storage time, plus elderly guests. I'd sacrifice the cake texture and be safe(r).

ETA - Another option is buying pasteurized shell eggs. With those, I would feel comfortable following the recipe as written. Just be super careful with washing your hands, not touching your hair or skin that you didn't just wash and then touching the food, etc.

This is excellent advice. While I wouldn't have an issue eating it if it were prepared by someone I trusted, I wouldn't feed it to young kids or older people because the potential consequences, even if highly unlikely, are potentially more severe to those in these groups.

Docpremie

I use Egg Beaters in my egg nog, because they are pasteurized. I don't know why you couldn't do the same with this recipe, but I'd try it beforehand.

Mother_Superior

Why yeah I reckon...and while yer at it, git yerself someothat salmon yella I been hearin so much about.


(But seriously though, if it's good enough for Rocky 1, it's good enough for me.)

rml_16

Eggs are pateurized, which kills the possibly offending bacteria. I eat batter and stuff with raw eggs all the time. It might be a risk to make something three days ahead with raw eggs, so if you can do it a day ahead instead, it's probably a good idea. But either way, it's probably fine.

rml_16

I use Egg Beaters in my egg nog, because they are pasteurized. I don't know why you couldn't do the same with this recipe, but I'd try it beforehand.

Pretty much all eggs you buy in a grocery store in the US are pateurized.

SheFoxyLady

Ah, I have to admit that all things like eggbeaters, meringue powder and such are more difficult to find in France... But I reckon that if I find some I will try it and consider the results it yields.

Yeah, that's why I've been insisting upon the age range - I have already briefly discussed the matter with the elder ones, and they seem to have experienced quite a fright (mind you, they actually did taste a consistent portion of the test version I made a couple of days ago and which sat for 3 consecutive days, with a lid, in the fridge. No food poisoning whatsoever.). I'll have to mention the possibility of using fresh farm eggs or pasteurized ones, as well as coddling.
And truthfully, I seriously doubt the younger ones will appreciate it this much (but who knows!) - that's why I've decided to make some chocolate eclairs too :laugh:

neanderthin

Ah, I have to admit that all things like eggbeaters, meringue powder and such are more difficult to find in France... But I reckon that if I find some I will try it and consider the results it yields.

Yeah, that's why I've been insisting upon the age range - I have already briefly discussed the matter with the elder ones, and they seem to have experienced quite a fright (mind you, they actually did taste a consistent portion of the test version I made a couple of days ago and which sat for 3 consecutive days, with a lid, in the fridge. No food poisoning whatsoever.). I'll have to mention the possibility of using fresh farm eggs or pasteurized ones, as well as coddling.
And truthfully, I seriously doubt the younger ones will appreciate it this much (but who knows!) - that's why I've decided to make some chocolate eclairs too :laugh:

It's sacrilegious to use powdered eggs in France. lol Make sure you get eggs from Bresse, can't be beat and the chicken is simply marvelous.

dbmata

Let me just say, you're overthinking it. Will these same revered elders go to a nice restaurant and order a mousse? I guarantee you that any place worth a $12 dessert will be using fresh, raw eggs. Simply put, it's safe, and if handled properly, won't be an issue. Even after 3 days.

If you do have concerns though, add some brandy. That's a more than effective inhibitor, and a flavor enhancer to boot.

That said, there's a risk. Just like you risk death with just about most actions you do daily. Proper handling, and good materials will mitigate the risk to a more than acceptable amount. You'll be fine if you keep things fresh, high quality, and clean.

SheFoxyLady

It's sacrilegious to use powdered eggs in France. lol Make sure you get eggs from Bresse, can't be beat and the chicken is simply marvelous.
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I know, I know :laugh: . I have to admit many of my friends already pull face when proposed powdered milk, so I doubt powdered eggs would undergo such success or popularity
I'll take a look then!

mrsgrimsdale

All UK (battery/barn hens) are vaccinated against salmonella and listeria they are marked with a red lion to guarantee this, but are then sold in stores where they may be stored for 2-3 weeks!! I do not know American food safety standards but if you know the egg supply ie. a local farm, know they are fresh and can see the birds are kept in a clean(poo-free) environment they should be fine.
I wouldn't fancy eating eggs that had been part heated and then left for 3 days though, even if they were the freshest eggs in the world and kept in a fridge after cooking.

neandermagnon

its a risk, but unless you are giving it to children, elderly, or immunocompromised, I'd be OK with taking the risk. They make pasteurized eggs, but I find them very difficult to whip.

she said one of the guests is 72

OP I would inform your guests as to how this is made, and ask if anyone wants an alternative. Then it's their informed decision. Especially re the kids and elderly people. Personally, I don't mind taking risks with stuff like this, but I'd rather the decision was made by me, not on my behalf.

ETA: also, can't you get eggs that are laid by chickens who have been vaccinated against salmonella?

SheFoxyLady

Let me just say, you're overthinking it. Will these same revered elders go to a nice restaurant and order a mousse? I guarantee you that any place worth a $12 dessert will be using fresh, raw eggs. Simply put, it's safe, and if handled properly, won't be an issue. Even after 3 days.

If you do have concerns though, add some brandy. That's a more than effective inhibitor, and a flavor enhancer to boot.

That said, there's a risk. Just like you risk death with just about most actions you do daily. Proper handling, and good materials will mitigate the risk to a more than acceptable amount. You'll be fine if you keep things fresh, high quality, and clean.

I have to be honest, you are more than probably right... And I can not argue against your comment about death - I usually am the one who does it (though it'd be quite a pity to die from salmonella infection - eventhough such poisoning remains, in my opinion, highly unlikely). I will let them voice their concerns when further discussing the matter though. Getting into an argument about a simple dish really isn't worth the hassle~