Debunking the Myth

jwdieter

You have gained 6-7 lbs while maintaining BF%, so you are up 6-7 lbs in that 8 months? Then you were eating above your TDEE...

Yep. OP "debunked" the "myth" that you can't gain muscle while gaining weight. Thanks OP.

FatHuMan1

Grossly mis-titling threads should be a strike worthy offence.

ThriceBlessed

BF% measurements are not accurate.

You are indeed very special if you can gain 16lbs of LBM as a woman in 6 months at a calorie deficit of that size.
Write a book. Mint a fortune.

LOL, I know bodyfat percentage measurements aren't perfect, but they can be pretty close.

My plan is 1 1/2 -2 hours of working out everyday, some of that is cardio, some strength, plus eating enough protein every day, and averaging around 1600-2000 calories each day.

BF% measurements vary +- 5% to 10%.

You lost 51 pounds in 6 months or accroding to you 67 pounds of fat. That's about 11 lbs a month or 2.5 lbs a week which makes it a daily net deficit of about 1300 calories EXCLUDING metabolism need to repair and build muscle.

So seriously, you just invented the single most efficient muscle building program (at a daily deficit of 1300) of that the world has ever seen. And you should market it. Because gaining over 2.5 lbs a month of LBM (AT A DEFICIT) exceeds the metabolic capability of most men at maintenance.

Or your measurements are off.

That deficit seems about right. In the beginning, I lost very quickly, and I exercised more than I do now, at the start I sometimes put in 4 hours of exercise, now its 1 1/2 to 2 hours.

Lets assume my measurements are off. They are done electronically, which I know isn't perfect. However the same device has been used all along to measure them, so shouldn't the margin of error pretty much be the same? So I am still seeing a change, even the exact numbers are off because of the margin of error in the device.

My numbers are also not just based on a single reading at the start and a single reading at the end, the measurement was repeated several days to see that it was consistent.

51 pounds, divided by six months, is a loss of 8.5 pounds per month, not 11 pounds per month just in terms of weight loss so I guess you were taking my figure of fat loss... however I did eat at a deficit of 1300-1500... in the first few months I DID lose 11-15 pounds a month, then it slowed.

I know I gained lean mass and lost fat, even if the numbers are a little off, even if they are 10% off, I still gained a significant amount of muscle while losing fat. How I did it I can't really say, other than I worked my butt off. I hiked a lot, I lifted weights, I did bodyweight exercises...

I think a lot of it was in my legs and core, though I do have some upper body muscle I didn't have before as well.

At any rate, I am not obligated to prove to anyone, I know for myself, I have seen the measurements and the results. If the device I use reads wrong, it is fairly consistent with how much it is wrong by... so I am still seeing a change that is impressive to me, and I'm the only one I'm trying to impress.

usmcmp

BF% measurements are not accurate.

You are indeed very special if you can gain 16lbs of LBM as a woman in 6 months at a calorie deficit of that size.
Write a book. Mint a fortune.

LOL, I know bodyfat percentage measurements aren't perfect, but they can be pretty close.

My plan is 1 1/2 -2 hours of working out everyday, some of that is cardio, some strength, plus eating enough protein every day, and averaging around 1600-2000 calories each day.

BF% measurements vary +- 5% to 10%.

You lost 51 pounds in 6 months or accroding to you 67 pounds of fat. That's about 11 lbs a month or 2.5 lbs a week which makes it a daily net deficit of about 1300 calories EXCLUDING metabolism need to repair and build muscle.

So seriously, you just invented the single most efficient muscle building program (at a daily deficit of 1300) of that the world has ever seen. And you should market it. Because gaining over 2.5 lbs a month of LBM (AT A DEFICIT) exceeds the metabolic capability of most men at maintenance.

Or your measurements are off.

That deficit seems about right. In the beginning, I lost very quickly, and I exercised more than I do now, at the start I sometimes put in 4 hours of exercise, now its 1 1/2 to 2 hours.

Lets assume my measurements are off. They are done electronically, which I know isn't perfect. However the same device has been used all along to measure them, so shouldn't the margin of error pretty much be the same? So I am still seeing a change, even the exact numbers are off because of the margin of error in the device.

My numbers are also not just based on a single reading at the start and a single reading at the end, the measurement was repeated several days to see that it was consistent.

51 pounds, divided by six months, is a loss of 8.5 pounds per month, not 11 pounds per month just in terms of weight loss so I guess you were taking my figure of fat loss... however I did eat at a deficit of 1300-1500... in the first few months I DID lose 11-15 pounds a month, then it slowed.

I know I gained lean mass and lost fat, even if the numbers are a little off, even if they are 10% off, I still gained a significant amount of muscle while losing fat. How I did it I can't really say, other than I worked my butt off. I hiked a lot, I lifted weights, I did bodyweight exercises...

I think a lot of it was in my legs and core, though I do have some upper body muscle I didn't have before as well.

At any rate, I am not obligated to prove to anyone, I know for myself, I have seen the measurements and the results. If the device I use reads wrong, it is fairly consistent with how much it is wrong by... so I am still seeing a change that is impressive to me, and I'm the only one I'm trying to impress.

Congratulations on your weight loss, that is a great accomplishment. As a woman who is bulking and lifting to specifically gain lean mass I can say that I am lucky to put on 3 pounds of lean mass in 2 months. My body fat is measured with calipers and electronically (as well as measurements). I have gotten much stronger, but there's no way you added 16 pounds of lean mass in 6 months unless you are taking steroids, deficit or surplus.

JoRocka

Fine. You guys are forcing me to get more specific. So here I go:

oh god- you made a big statement about 'debunking' a myth and now get cranky when you have to show your work? jesus- every 9th grader for geometry and algebra has to do math proofs for basic equations- much less for debunking a widely known scientific fact- come on now.

4) I'm not making newbie gains. I am 40 years old and have lifted weights off and on for 25 years.

I've been working out my whole life- heavy and light and I stopped serious progressive training for 2 years- and was doing HIIT weight style training- mostly 25 -45 lbs for a year or two...

Guess what-back to the BB I still had newb gains. just because you were lifting weights on and off doesn't mean you can't have newb gains.

What I believe is happening is that by maintaining a slight deficit and lifting with super high intensity, I am forcing my body to use whatever it can to rebuild muscle. I fully understand the science behind hypertrophy and being in an anabolic state, so I can't tell you scientifically why this has been working for me, but the proof is in the pudding. I don't like putting pictures of myself online, so youre; just going to have to take my word for it.

Jesus said the same thing- 'take my word for it' and hundreds of dead people through the crusades ... that's just not a reliable way to do anything.

ThriceBlessed

I read that for every 5 pound gain of LBM, only 1 pound is muscle. The rest is glycogen, water, etc. So that would mean even with an increase of 16 pounds of lean body mass, I only gained a little over 3 lbs of muscle. That to me seems possible in six months with amount of working out I've done... but maybe not. I'll just keep working out and tracking my numbers. I have a suspicion that over a year or two, the numbers will be more believable to people, because my body tends to lose weight and gain muscle in large spurts, rather than slow and steady every month.

BrainyBurro

Fine. You guys are forcing me to get more specific. So here I go:

1) I am about as accurate a logger as there is. I track everything down to the gram. Unless its the occasional cheat meal, if it's not weighed and portioned, it doesn't go in my mouth.

2) My BF% has not decreased in over a year. I have been lean to the point of definition, vascularity and striations for over a year, my change in appearance is only due to muscle gain, not increased defintion due to fat loss.

3) I never said that I haven't gained weight. I have gained 6-7 lbs. of lean muscle in the last 8 months while maintaining BF%

4) I'm not making newbie gains. I am 40 years old and have lifted weights off and on for 25 years.

5) My TDEE is only as accurate as what MFP and FItbit tell me. So I can't argue with the fact that my TDEE is less than what I'm being told. But if that's the case, how did I successfully lose weight based on the same calculator.

What I believe is happening is that by maintaining a slight deficit and lifting with super high intensity, I am forcing my body to use whatever it can to rebuild muscle. I fully understand the science behind hypertrophy and being in an anabolic state, so I can't tell you scientifically why this has been working for me, but the proof is in the pudding. I don't like putting pictures of myself online, so youre; just going to have to take my word for it.

You have gained 6-7 lbs while maintaining BF%, so you are up 6-7 lbs in that 8 months? Then you were eating above your TDEE...

not necessarily. you forgot one possibility...

SteveJWatson

What I believe is happening is that by maintaining a slight deficit and lifting with super high intensity, I am forcing my body to use whatever it can to rebuild muscle. I fully understand the science behind hypertrophy and being in an anabolic state, so I can't tell you scientifically why this has been working for me, but the proof is in the pudding. I don't like putting pictures of myself online, so youre; just going to have to take my word for it.

.....aaaaaand this is where it all comes unravelled. Burden of proof and all that.

What are you selling?

suziepoo1984

I am finally ready after 2 years of experimention to firmly say that the prevailing concept that a caloric surplus is necessary to build muscle is untrue. I know this is going to get a lot of backlash since it has been the belief for so long amongst the general public, but I am now living proof that muscle and strength gains can be acheived through an intense lifting regiment and a closely monitered intake even with a slight caloric deficit. Without getting into too much detail about mself, I can just tell you that I net under my TDEE every week, and every week I get bigger, stronger, and more defined. The key is simply lifting heavy weights to the point of misery, and eating a crap load of protein. Of course if you want to get bigger faster, eat more, but I am much happier making slow gains while maintaining a six pack than benching 285 lbs. with a beer gut.

You may be pregnant.

Direct correlation to what OP said :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Sextuplets? he said he has 6 packs, maybe 6 babies :laugh:

But OP, it is possible that you lost fat and thats why your muscles look more defined? or you were eating at tdee+= or your TDEE is lower than you think?
I am not sure of any of these as i am ignorant, but good job on getting a six pack. Now if we could only see some pics, that would make my day!

Wilhellmina

There are so many myths in the diet world, like fat makes you fat and calorie in = calorie out. We can talk about it, but it seems the first thing people do when getting on a diet is buying ear plugs. Sooner or later they will figure out...

EricRazorbacks

What I believe is happening is that by maintaining a slight deficit and lifting with super high intensity, I am forcing my body to use whatever it can to rebuild muscle. I fully understand the science behind hypertrophy and being in an anabolic state, so I can't tell you scientifically why this has been working for me, but the proof is in the pudding. I don't like putting pictures of myself online, so youre; just going to have to take my word for it.

.....aaaaaand this is where it all comes unravelled. Burden of proof and all that.

What are you selling?

His Debunking the Myth book. You just got the advance copy. You have to read it carefully, but you'll learn that the key is pudding. Eat more pudding.

usmcmp

There are so many myths in the diet world, like fat makes you fat and calorie in = calorie out. We can talk about it, but it seems the first thing people do when getting on a diet is buying ear plugs. Sooner or later they will figure out...

You've been here since July and lost zero pounds. Sounds like you have incredible advice.

sijomial

I posted the study below by E Helms in a thread earlier today - science and all that....

My own experience is that I did gain LBM whilst losing fat and weight over a period of 7 months. Averaged out at 1lb of fat lost a month and 0.5lb of LBM gained for a net loss of weight.
I fail to understand why people think new cells cannot be made when at a slight deficit when it is demonstrable that the opposite is true.
If someone has science that shows LBM gain is "impossible" at a calorie deficit please post for everyone's education.

There's a lot of name calling but little science from either side so far in this debate.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24092765/?i=2&from=sport,+training

A Systematic Review of Dietary Protein During Caloric Restriction in Resistance Trained Lean Athletes: A Case for Higher Intakes.
AuthorsHelms ER, et al. Show all
Helms ER, Zinn C, Rowlands DS, Brown SR.
JournalInt J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2013 Oct 2. [Epub ahead of print]

AffiliationAbstract
Caloric restriction occurs when athletes attempt to reduce body fat or make weight. There is evidence that protein needs increase when athletes restrict calories or have low body fat.

PURPOSE: The aims of this review were to evaluate the effects of dietary protein on body composition in energy-restricted resistance-trained athletes and to provide protein recommendations for these athletes.

METHODS: Database searches were performed from earliest record to July 2013 using the terms protein, and intake, or diet, and weight, or train, or restrict, or energy, or strength, and athlete. Studies (N = 6) needed to use adult (≥ 18 yrs), energy-restricted, resistance-trained (> 6 months) humans of lower body fat (males ≤ 23% and females ≤ 35%) performing resistance training. Protein intake, fat free mass (FFM) and body fat had to be reported.

RESULTS: Body fat percentage decreased (0.5% to 6.6%) in all study groups(N = 13) and FFM decreased (0.3 to 2.7kg) in nine of 13. Four groups gained or did not lose FFM. They had the highest body fat, smallest magnitudes of energy restriction or underwent novel resistance training stimuli. Two groups lost non-significant amounts of FFM. The same conditions that existed in the groups that did not lose FFM existed in the first group. These conditions were not present in the second group, but this group consumed the highest protein intake in this review (2.5-2.6g/kg).

jwdieter

I posted the study below by E Helms in a thread earlier today - science and all that....

My own experience is that I did gain LBM whilst losing fat and weight over a period of 7 months. Averaged out at 1lb of fat lost a month and 0.5lb of LBM gained for a net loss of weight.
I fail to understand why people think new cells cannot be made when at a slight deficit when it is demonstrable that the opposite is true.
If someone has science that shows LBM gain is "impossible" at a calorie deficit please post for everyone's education.

There's a lot of name calling but little science from either side so far in this debate.

Well, I've seen that a body can gain weight and lose fat, and lose weight while gaining muscle.

But the OP claims to have gained weight and gained muscle... at the same time. Did that blow your mind?

Wilhellmina

There are so many myths in the diet world, like fat makes you fat and calorie in = calorie out. We can talk about it, but it seems the first thing people do when getting on a diet is buying ear plugs. Sooner or later they will figure out...

You've been here since July and lost zero pounds. Sounds like you have incredible advice.

To your information I lost well over 15 kilos (33 lbs) already! I have recently reset my ticker + it doesn't show what I have lost but how much I still have to go! Next to that I don't weigh myself so much anymore, I measure and recently lost another 3 cm waist! Next....

sijomial

Well, I've seen that a body can gain weight and lose fat, and lose weight while gaining muscle.

But the OP claims to have gained weight and gained muscle... at the same time. Did that blow your mind?

That doesn't but if you add in "was at a deficit" it certainly does!

heybales

6 months ago I was 51 pounds heavier than I am now. I also had a bodyfat percentage 53.8 percent. I now have a bodyfat percentage of 36.7. So 6 months ago I had a lean body mass of around 130 pounds and 152 pounds of fat (yuck!). Now I have 146 pounds of lean body mass, and around 85 pounds of fat. So I've lost 67 pounds of fat, and gained around 16 pounds of lean body mass for total weight loss of 51 pounds. I have been told by so many that is impossible to gain muscle while still losing weight, that you won't gain significant muscle if you are eating at the calorie deficit needed to lose pounds. Yet, over the past six months I have both lost pounds and gained muscle. So the self proclaimed "experts" who say you can't do that are full of it.

I love these discussions that fail to separate 2 things.

LBM does NOT equal muscle mass.

Muscle mass is merely one component of LBM.

You can totally gain LBM doing nothing but cardio - and not gain any muscle mass at all.
Because your body is storing more glucose with water, and your blood volume has increased so more water there.

Also, during a deficit, your body is still breaking down and making new cells all over the place, actually still growing stuff too - nails, hair, skin, ect prove new can be built at deficit. Just slower.

jofjltncb6

There are so many myths in the diet world, like fat makes you fat and calorie in = calorie out. We can talk about it, but it seems the first thing people do when getting on a diet is buying ear plugs. Sooner or later they will figure out...

You've been here since July and lost zero pounds. Sounds like you have incredible advice.

Might be time to revisit that CICO "myth".

QuietBloom

I'm not sure you tracked too well. It is possible to gain muscle while losing weight, but usually only for those who have a lot of extra fat to start with, because they can lose the fat, and gain some muscle, for example someone could lose 10 pounds of fat and gain 1 pound of muscle, and on the scale it will show that they lost 9 pounds. But if a person doesn't have the 10 pounds of extra fat to lose and they gain 1 pound of muscle, the scale is going to show a 1 pound gain.

Here is my story, better documented and tracked than what I can see of yours (you may have tracked everything, but you don't post that info for us).

6 months ago I was 51 pounds heavier than I am now. I also had a bodyfat percentage 53.8 percent. I now have a bodyfat percentage of 36.7. So 6 months ago I had a lean body mass of around 130 pounds and 152 pounds of fat (yuck!). Now I have 146 pounds of lean body mass, and around 85 pounds of fat. So I've lost 67 pounds of fat, and gained around 16 pounds of lean body mass for total weight loss of 51 pounds. I have been told by so many that is impossible to gain muscle while still losing weight, that you won't gain significant muscle if you are eating at the calorie deficit needed to lose pounds. Yet, over the past six months I have both lost pounds and gained muscle. So the self proclaimed "experts" who say you can't do that are full of it.

Now, while I fully agree that you can gain muscle while eating at a deficit, you have to have the extra bodyfat at the start. Your body will burn up that fat to supply some of the missing calories, also, you will lose fat, and gain muscle, but every time you gain a pound of muscle that means the scale can't go down a pound that week even if you lose a pound of fat that week. Its all math, and in the end the final number on the scale is going to be made of fat, muscle, skin, bone, water, blood, hair, etc. If you lose fat and gain and equal amount of anything else, the number on the scale won't change. Your bodyfat percentage might, your measurements might, but the scale won't.

Note the reason my ticker shows 53 pounds lost, instead of 51 pounds, is because my ticker starts from my highest weight, while the paragraph above is only dealing with weight loss/gain in the last 6 months.

How did you measure your body fat?

ndj1979

so you built muscle while in an energy deficit..?? This is similar to saying that you drive your car on an empty tank of gas...

I have serious doubts...