Debunking the Myth
Replies
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That doesn't but if you add in "was at a deficit" it certainly does!Well, I've seen that a body can gain weight and lose fat, and lose weight while gaining muscle.
But the OP claims to have gained weight and gained muscle... at the same time. Did that blow your mind?
With this evidence I feel confident in creating a new "Myth of Conservation of Energy" Wikipedia entry.0 -
A fat bloke has a great big tank of gas.....so you built muscle while in an energy deficit..?? This is similar to saying that you drive your car on an empty tank of gas...
I have serious doubts...0 -
BF% measurements are not accurate.
You are indeed very special if you can gain 16lbs of LBM as a woman in 6 months at a calorie deficit of that size.
Write a book. Mint a fortune.
LOL, I know bodyfat percentage measurements aren't perfect, but they can be pretty close.
My plan is 1 1/2 -2 hours of working out everyday, some of that is cardio, some strength, plus eating enough protein every day, and averaging around 1600-2000 calories each day.
BF% measurements vary +- 5% to 10%.
You lost 51 pounds in 6 months or accroding to you 67 pounds of fat. That's about 11 lbs a month or 2.5 lbs a week which makes it a daily net deficit of about 1300 calories EXCLUDING metabolism need to repair and build muscle.
So seriously, you just invented the single most efficient muscle building program (at a daily deficit of 1300) of that the world has ever seen. And you should market it. Because gaining over 2.5 lbs a month of LBM (AT A DEFICIT) exceeds the metabolic capability of most men at maintenance.
Or your measurements are off.
I choose ..B - measurements are off...
don't forget she also added 16 pounds of LBM while in net deficit of 1300 cals...0 -
...I can just tell you that I net under my TDEE every week...
How do you know you're eating under your TDEE?0 -
#grabspopcorn0
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A fat bloke has a great big tank of gas.....so you built muscle while in an energy deficit..?? This is similar to saying that you drive your car on an empty tank of gas...
I have serious doubts...
true...but my reading of the OP is that he was not starting from newbie/obese beginning...0 -
I don't think 'study of one' constitutes proof of anything.
Well that's not true, either. It only takes seeing one black swan to prove that not all swans are white.
That said, the OP is clearly making inaccurate claims.0 -
3) I never said that I haven't gained weight. I have gained 6-7 lbs. of lean muscle in the last 8 months while maintaining BF%
If you didn't lose weight, you are not eating below TDEE.
If you gained weight - which is what you appear to saying - you are actually eating above TDEE.
If you gained weight while maintaining the same body fat %age, you gained some fat.
Serious question - are you sure you know what these terms mean?0 -
You have gained 6-7 lbs while maintaining BF%, so you are up 6-7 lbs in that 8 months? Then you were eating above your TDEE...
Yep. OP "debunked" the "myth" that you can't gain muscle while gaining weight. Thanks OP.
LOL way to disprove yourself OP!0 -
I don't think 'study of one' constitutes proof of anything.
Well that's not true, either. It only takes seeing one black swan to prove that not all swans are white.
That said, the OP is clearly making inaccurate claims.
Unless said swan is actually covered in oil or something. With no documentation or verification, one subjective example does not a proof make.0 -
I don't think 'study of one' constitutes proof of anything.
Well that's not true, either. It only takes seeing one black swan to prove that not all swans are white.
That said, the OP is clearly making inaccurate claims.
A scientific study of N=1 is interesting, but proves nothing. Because SCIENCE.0 -
I don't think 'study of one' constitutes proof of anything.
Well that's not true, either. It only takes seeing one black swan to prove that not all swans are white.
That said, the OP is clearly making inaccurate claims.
A scientific study of N=1 is interesting, but proves nothing. Because SCIENCE.
I disagree. A legit test of n=1 can be used to test the position that something *never* happens. However, this was not legit. I'm not even sure OP fully understood the terms he was using.0 -
You have gained 6-7 lbs while maintaining BF%, so you are up 6-7 lbs in that 8 months? Then you were eating above your TDEE...Fine. You guys are forcing me to get more specific. So here I go:
1) I am about as accurate a logger as there is. I track everything down to the gram. Unless its the occasional cheat meal, if it's not weighed and portioned, it doesn't go in my mouth.
2) My BF% has not decreased in over a year. I have been lean to the point of definition, vascularity and striations for over a year, my change in appearance is only due to muscle gain, not increased defintion due to fat loss.
3) I never said that I haven't gained weight. I have gained 6-7 lbs. of lean muscle in the last 8 months while maintaining BF%
4) I'm not making newbie gains. I am 40 years old and have lifted weights off and on for 25 years.
5) My TDEE is only as accurate as what MFP and FItbit tell me. So I can't argue with the fact that my TDEE is less than what I'm being told. But if that's the case, how did I successfully lose weight based on the same calculator.
What I believe is happening is that by maintaining a slight deficit and lifting with super high intensity, I am forcing my body to use whatever it can to rebuild muscle. I fully understand the science behind hypertrophy and being in an anabolic state, so I can't tell you scientifically why this has been working for me, but the proof is in the pudding. I don't like putting pictures of myself online, so youre; just going to have to take my word for it.
not necessarily. you forgot one possibility...
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:0 -
There are so many myths in the diet world, like fat makes you fat and calorie in = calorie out. We can talk about it, but it seems the first thing people do when getting on a diet is buying ear plugs. Sooner or later they will figure out...
That is actually a fact, not a myth.
0 -
There are so many myths in the diet world, like fat makes you fat and calorie in = calorie out. We can talk about it, but it seems the first thing people do when getting on a diet is buying ear plugs. Sooner or later they will figure out...
You've been here since July and lost zero pounds. Sounds like you have incredible advice.
OMG, you are just jealous!! :laugh:0 -
There are so many myths in the diet world, like fat makes you fat and calorie in = calorie out. We can talk about it, but it seems the first thing people do when getting on a diet is buying ear plugs. Sooner or later they will figure out...
That is actually a fact, not a myth.
Really? How come there are so many under eating, busting their *kitten* off and yet not losing an ounce? How come with my years of eating as a 6 year old I am not underweight? Because it is not as simple as that!0 -
3) I never said that I haven't gained weight. I have gained 6-7 lbs. of lean muscle in the last 8 months while maintaining BF%
If you didn't lose weight, you are not eating below TDEE.
If you gained weight - which is what you appear to saying - you are actually eating above TDEE.
If you gained weight while maintaining the same body fat %age, you gained some fat.
Serious question - are you sure you know what these terms mean?
I am 155 pounds with a BF% somewhere between 7-9%. I work construction, have a 3 year old and an infant, don't sit down for about 14 straight hours every day and workout hard 4 times a week. I average a net intake of around 2200 calories. You guys tell me whether it should be possible to gain muscle mass with these specs based on your conventional wisdom. I bench 225, squat 285, curl 45's, and OHP 185. I have clear definition and well developed musculature. I am far from a noob. I cant explain why it is that this works for me, all I am saying is it does.
And to answer your serious question; I am about as knowledgable as you'll find in this forum. If there's one thing you can't question, it's my grasp of the concepts and terms discussed and professed herein. I am also willing to challenge them occasionally.0 -
I posted the study below by E Helms in a thread earlier today - science and all that....
My own experience is that I did gain LBM whilst losing fat and weight over a period of 7 months. Averaged out at 1lb of fat lost a month and 0.5lb of LBM gained for a net loss of weight.
I fail to understand why people think new cells cannot be made when at a slight deficit when it is demonstrable that the opposite is true.
If someone has science that shows LBM gain is "impossible" at a calorie deficit please post for everyone's education.
There's a lot of name calling but little science from either side so far in this debate.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24092765/?i=2&from=sport,+training
A Systematic Review of Dietary Protein During Caloric Restriction in Resistance Trained Lean Athletes: A Case for Higher Intakes.
AuthorsHelms ER, et al. Show all
Helms ER, Zinn C, Rowlands DS, Brown SR.
JournalInt J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2013 Oct 2. [Epub ahead of print]
AffiliationAbstract
Caloric restriction occurs when athletes attempt to reduce body fat or make weight. There is evidence that protein needs increase when athletes restrict calories or have low body fat.
PURPOSE: The aims of this review were to evaluate the effects of dietary protein on body composition in energy-restricted resistance-trained athletes and to provide protein recommendations for these athletes.
METHODS: Database searches were performed from earliest record to July 2013 using the terms protein, and intake, or diet, and weight, or train, or restrict, or energy, or strength, and athlete. Studies (N = 6) needed to use adult (≥ 18 yrs), energy-restricted, resistance-trained (> 6 months) humans of lower body fat (males ≤ 23% and females ≤ 35%) performing resistance training. Protein intake, fat free mass (FFM) and body fat had to be reported.
RESULTS: Body fat percentage decreased (0.5% to 6.6%) in all study groups(N = 13) and FFM decreased (0.3 to 2.7kg) in nine of 13. Four groups gained or did not lose FFM. They had the highest body fat, smallest magnitudes of energy restriction or underwent novel resistance training stimuli. Two groups lost non-significant amounts of FFM. The same conditions that existed in the groups that did not lose FFM existed in the first group. These conditions were not present in the second group, but this group consumed the highest protein intake in this review (2.5-2.6g/kg).
The OP was lean and per him, has lifted for years.
He may have got some 'newb gains' from changing up his routine, but according to him, he is very lean. How does the above show that what he is saying is backed by science? Also, the OP gained weight. Also....he apparently gained 1lb a month of muscle.0 -
I'm not sure you tracked too well. It is possible to gain muscle while losing weight, but usually only for those who have a lot of extra fat to start with, because they can lose the fat, and gain some muscle, for example someone could lose 10 pounds of fat and gain 1 pound of muscle, and on the scale it will show that they lost 9 pounds. But if a person doesn't have the 10 pounds of extra fat to lose and they gain 1 pound of muscle, the scale is going to show a 1 pound gain.
Here is my story, better documented and tracked than what I can see of yours (you may have tracked everything, but you don't post that info for us).
6 months ago I was 51 pounds heavier than I am now. I also had a bodyfat percentage 53.8 percent. I now have a bodyfat percentage of 36.7. So 6 months ago I had a lean body mass of around 130 pounds and 152 pounds of fat (yuck!). Now I have 146 pounds of lean body mass, and around 85 pounds of fat. So I've lost 67 pounds of fat, and gained around 16 pounds of lean body mass for total weight loss of 51 pounds. I have been told by so many that is impossible to gain muscle while still losing weight, that you won't gain significant muscle if you are eating at the calorie deficit needed to lose pounds. Yet, over the past six months I have both lost pounds and gained muscle. So the self proclaimed "experts" who say you can't do that are full of it.
Now, while I fully agree that you can gain muscle while eating at a deficit, you have to have the extra bodyfat at the start. Your body will burn up that fat to supply some of the missing calories, also, you will lose fat, and gain muscle, but every time you gain a pound of muscle that means the scale can't go down a pound that week even if you lose a pound of fat that week. Its all math, and in the end the final number on the scale is going to be made of fat, muscle, skin, bone, water, blood, hair, etc. If you lose fat and gain and equal amount of anything else, the number on the scale won't change. Your bodyfat percentage might, your measurements might, but the scale won't.
Note the reason my ticker shows 53 pounds lost, instead of 51 pounds, is because my ticker starts from my highest weight, while the paragraph above is only dealing with weight loss/gain in the last 6 months.
Let me guess, you used BIA or some other inaccurate method of measurement?
16lbs of lean body mass gain in 6 months would be good. Good for a healthy male, eating a decent calorie surplus and involved in a heavy lifting program. 16lbs of lean body mass gained by a woman who is in a deficit and losing weight is impossible. No matter what miracle you think happened, it simply did not.
Here's an anecdote for you. According to my BIA scale, my LBM was 175.3lbs yesterday. Today it says 182.8. That's 7.5lbs of lean body mass gained in one day. I didn't even lift yesterday. It's magic!
So no, you didn't gain 16lbs of LBM. In fact, I would venture to guess that at BEST you maintained LBM and more likely than not you probably lost a little bit. For myself as an example, I've lost probably ~5lbs of LBM in losing 100lbs overall. Which is excellent., and I am very proud of it.0 -
There are so many myths in the diet world, like fat makes you fat and calorie in = calorie out. We can talk about it, but it seems the first thing people do when getting on a diet is buying ear plugs. Sooner or later they will figure out...
That is actually a fact, not a myth.
Really? How come there are so many under eating, busting their *kitten* off and yet not losing an ounce? How come with my years of eating as a 6 year old I am not underweight? Because it is not as simple as that!
Inaccurate calorie logging and overestimation of calorie burns. I've been there myself. Unless (of course) there are hormonal issues at play.0 -
3) I never said that I haven't gained weight. I have gained 6-7 lbs. of lean muscle in the last 8 months while maintaining BF%
If you didn't lose weight, you are not eating below TDEE.
If you gained weight - which is what you appear to saying - you are actually eating above TDEE.
If you gained weight while maintaining the same body fat %age, you gained some fat.
Serious question - are you sure you know what these terms mean?
I am 155 pounds with a BF% somewhere between 7-9%. I work construction, have a 3 year old and an infant, don't sit down for about 14 straight hours every day and workout hard 4 times a week. I average a net intake of around 2200 calories. You guys tell me whether it should be possible to gain muscle mass with these specs based on your conventional wisdom. I bench 225, squat 285, curl 45's, and OHP 185. I have clear definition and well developed musculature. I am far from a noob. I cant explain why it is that this works for me, all I am saying is it does.
And to answer your serious question; I am about as knowledgable as you'll find in this forum. If there's one thing you can't question, it's my grasp of the concepts and terms discussed and professed herein. I am also willing to challenge them occasionally.
I squat 275lb and am a little lighter...and female...so? Not sure what strength has to do with the discussion.
How are you assessing BF%?0 -
3) I never said that I haven't gained weight. I have gained 6-7 lbs. of lean muscle in the last 8 months while maintaining BF%
If you didn't lose weight, you are not eating below TDEE.
If you gained weight - which is what you appear to saying - you are actually eating above TDEE.
If you gained weight while maintaining the same body fat %age, you gained some fat.
Serious question - are you sure you know what these terms mean?
I am 155 pounds with a BF% somewhere between 7-9%. I work construction, have a 3 year old and an infant, don't sit down for about 14 straight hours every day and workout hard 4 times a week. I average a net intake of around 2200 calories. You guys tell me whether it should be possible to gain muscle mass with these specs based on your conventional wisdom. I bench 225, squat 285, curl 45's, and OHP 185. I have clear definition and well developed musculature. I am far from a noob. I cant explain why it is that this works for me, all I am saying is it does.
And to answer your serious question; I am about as knowledgable as you'll find in this forum. If there's one thing you can't question, it's my grasp of the concepts and terms discussed and professed herein. I am also willing to challenge them occasionally.
Net intake of 2200 at 155 lbs and gaining 1 lb/month? Seems spot on.0 -
3) I never said that I haven't gained weight. I have gained 6-7 lbs. of lean muscle in the last 8 months while maintaining BF%
If you didn't lose weight, you are not eating below TDEE.
If you gained weight - which is what you appear to saying - you are actually eating above TDEE.
If you gained weight while maintaining the same body fat %age, you gained some fat.
Serious question - are you sure you know what these terms mean?
I am 155 pounds with a BF% somewhere between 7-9%. I work construction, have a 3 year old and an infant, don't sit down for about 14 straight hours every day and workout hard 4 times a week. I average a net intake of around 2200 calories. You guys tell me whether it should be possible to gain muscle mass with these specs based on your conventional wisdom. I bench 225, squat 285, curl 45's, and OHP 185. I have clear definition and well developed musculature. I am far from a noob. I cant explain why it is that this works for me, all I am saying is it does.
And to answer your serious question; I am about as knowledgable as you'll find in this forum. If there's one thing you can't question, it's my grasp of the concepts and terms discussed and professed herein. I am also willing to challenge them occasionally.
i'm an astronaut and a famous rock star and a professional baseball player and a military general and also a CEO of a fortune 500 company. you'll just have to take my word for all of that... but it's ok, this is the internet. nobody exaggerates on the internet. that would be against the law.0 -
Really? How come there are so many under eating, busting their *kitten* off and yet not losing an ounce?
You are mistaken - there aren't.
Feel free to link to one demonstrated instance.0 -
There are so many myths in the diet world, like fat makes you fat and calorie in = calorie out. We can talk about it, but it seems the first thing people do when getting on a diet is buying ear plugs. Sooner or later they will figure out...
That is actually a fact, not a myth.
Really? How come there are so many under eating, busting their *kitten* off and yet not losing an ounce? How come with my years of eating as a 6 year old I am not underweight? Because it is not as simple as that!
I don't have visibility into each of those cases, but if I had to guess, I'd go with bad data. The inability of people to accurately log (or even *try to* accurately log) is staggering.0 -
And to answer your serious question; I am about as knowledgable as you'll find in this forum. If there's one thing you can't question, it's my grasp of the concepts and terms discussed and professed herein. I am also willing to challenge them occasionally.
You just claimed to be gaining both fat and muscle while on a caloric deficit.
Sorry, I do not see evidence that you know what you're talking about.0 -
Also, the OP gained weight. Also....he apparently gained 1lb a month of muscle.
Don't forget the fat gain - if weight goes up while BF% stays constant, that means fat gain, as well.0 -
I read the first post and made an assumption - which was later blown out of the water by the OP's follow up post!I posted the study below by E Helms in a thread earlier today - science and all that....
My own experience is that I did gain LBM whilst losing fat and weight over a period of 7 months. Averaged out at 1lb of fat lost a month and 0.5lb of LBM gained for a net loss of weight.
I fail to understand why people think new cells cannot be made when at a slight deficit when it is demonstrable that the opposite is true.
If someone has science that shows LBM gain is "impossible" at a calorie deficit please post for everyone's education.
There's a lot of name calling but little science from either side so far in this debate.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24092765/?i=2&from=sport,+training
A Systematic Review of Dietary Protein During Caloric Restriction in Resistance Trained Lean Athletes: A Case for Higher Intakes.
AuthorsHelms ER, et al. Show all
Helms ER, Zinn C, Rowlands DS, Brown SR.
JournalInt J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2013 Oct 2. [Epub ahead of print]
AffiliationAbstract
Caloric restriction occurs when athletes attempt to reduce body fat or make weight. There is evidence that protein needs increase when athletes restrict calories or have low body fat.
PURPOSE: The aims of this review were to evaluate the effects of dietary protein on body composition in energy-restricted resistance-trained athletes and to provide protein recommendations for these athletes.
METHODS: Database searches were performed from earliest record to July 2013 using the terms protein, and intake, or diet, and weight, or train, or restrict, or energy, or strength, and athlete. Studies (N = 6) needed to use adult (≥ 18 yrs), energy-restricted, resistance-trained (> 6 months) humans of lower body fat (males ≤ 23% and females ≤ 35%) performing resistance training. Protein intake, fat free mass (FFM) and body fat had to be reported.
RESULTS: Body fat percentage decreased (0.5% to 6.6%) in all study groups(N = 13) and FFM decreased (0.3 to 2.7kg) in nine of 13. Four groups gained or did not lose FFM. They had the highest body fat, smallest magnitudes of energy restriction or underwent novel resistance training stimuli. Two groups lost non-significant amounts of FFM. The same conditions that existed in the groups that did not lose FFM existed in the first group. These conditions were not present in the second group, but this group consumed the highest protein intake in this review (2.5-2.6g/kg).
The OP was lean and per him, has lifted for years.
He may have got some 'newb gains' from changing up his routine, but according to him, he is very lean. How does the above show that what he is saying is backed by science? Also, the OP gained weight. Also....he apparently gained 1lb a month of muscle.
Didn't see the "guess what I gained muscle while gaining weight" bombshell coming......."
As Monty Python said.... "no-one expects the Spanish Inquisition" and also "this isn't an argument, it's a contradiction".0 -
3) I never said that I haven't gained weight. I have gained 6-7 lbs. of lean muscle in the last 8 months while maintaining BF%
If you didn't lose weight, you are not eating below TDEE.
If you gained weight - which is what you appear to saying - you are actually eating above TDEE.
If you gained weight while maintaining the same body fat %age, you gained some fat.
Serious question - are you sure you know what these terms mean?
I am 155 pounds with a BF% somewhere between 7-9%. I work construction, have a 3 year old and an infant, don't sit down for about 14 straight hours every day and workout hard 4 times a week. I average a net intake of around 2200 calories. You guys tell me whether it should be possible to gain muscle mass with these specs based on your conventional wisdom. I bench 225, squat 285, curl 45's, and OHP 185. I have clear definition and well developed musculature. I am far from a noob. I cant explain why it is that this works for me, all I am saying is it does.
And to answer your serious question; I am about as knowledgable as you'll find in this forum. If there's one thing you can't question, it's my grasp of the concepts and terms discussed and professed herein. I am also willing to challenge them occasionally.
Net intake of 2200 at 155 lbs and gaining 1 lb/month? Seems spot on.
Please point me to a calculator that shows a male with 140 LBM and a highly active lifetstyle has a TDEE of 2100 calories.0 -
There are so many myths in the diet world, like fat makes you fat and calorie in = calorie out. We can talk about it, but it seems the first thing people do when getting on a diet is buying ear plugs. Sooner or later they will figure out...
That is actually a fact, not a myth.
Really? How come there are so many under eating, busting their *kitten* off and yet not losing an ounce? How come with my years of eating as a 6 year old I am not underweight? Because it is not as simple as that!
Man, science is hard, amirite?!0
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