Low Carb, Paleo. Is this nonsense or science?

GuitarJerry

Here's the site: http://www.dietdoctor.com/science

I have my own views, which, for now, I'll keep to myself.

I don't care if you think low carb or Paleo is a good diet plan.

I don't care if you think eating like a caveman is stupid.

I don't care if you think sugar is the angel of God, or Satans right hand of doom.

What I am asking here is, is this research legit and is there merit to this website?

Be open minded. I want a civil and balanced discussion, not a bunch of opinions.

Thanks.

Unknown

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BroSciencePhD

The issue with those weight loss studies is that lower carb diets reduce water weight which will lower your total body weight. I don't think weight is a good indicator in these types of studies. I do agree though that protein is most thermogenic . You use more calories to digest protein. It does burn more calories, so very possible and likely you can take advantage of thermogenesis.

It depends on which style of paleo you're using. Are you using mostly protein? (increased thermogensis) or moderate protein higher fat (atkins style). The later would result in a lower thermogenic effect.

EmSainz

The issue with those weight loss studies is that lower carb diets reduce water weight which will lower your total body weight. I don't think weight is a good indicator in these types of studies. I do agree though that protein is most thermogenic . You use more calories to digest protein. It does burn more calories, so very possible and likely you can take advantage of thermogenesis.

It depends on which style of paleo you're using. Are you using mostly protein? (increased thermogensis) or moderate protein higher fat (atkins style). The later would result in a lower thermogenic effect.

zerryz

Jerry, of all the stuff I've seen out there, that DrDiet site is one of the more interesting ones I found. I'm personally heading towards a LCHF diet. In all the stuff I read, It's the one that seems to make the most sense for me only because I'd like to swim long distances w/o feeding often and avoid bonking and GI distress. A number of marathon athletes, especially in the tri community, have become or are contemplating becoming what they call ketone-adapted. Becoming ketone-adapted seems to do the trick with the huge possible benefit of losing weight. I won't lie, I don't know much on the topic yet and it's going to be a self-experiment. I have a long way to go before understanding how it works; from what I read, it seems a highly personal experience. People seem to respond differently and have to work on balancing the nutrients/minerals to ensure that they are doing stuff correctly (magnesium, salt intake etc.) and that the experience of going through ketosis doesn t become extremely uncomfortable or a health challenge.

Dr Attia, a legit MD from the San Diego area, as well as an accomplished athlete --he's among others, a marathon swimmer, that's one of the ways I became aware of him -- Dr Attia went through a rigorous LCHF diet and did a ton of self-experimentation along the way. He no longer has a regular practice but does consult individuals for a lot of money. He writes and gathered lots of interesting info on his blog, which I admit, I have a hard time comprehending but I nevertheless try, sometimes asking translation from science/doc folks I know. Check it out: http://eatingacademy.com/start-here

He is also involved in orchestrating research on LCHF diet: http://nusi.org/the-science/why-nusi/#.UrtGbtiA3IU

There are 2 books he recommends reading (I have yet to read them!):
Why We Get Fat, Gary Taubes
Good Calories, Bad Calories, Gary Taubes

Gary Taubes is a partner in the NUSI initiative.

So, to answer your question, at this point, I really don't know. But I'm learning more every day. All I can say is the LCHF diet is the one, as a European, that I am most familiar with, except that the version I experienced growing up, is closer to a nutrient-rich-carb (veggies) and medium fat (select meat and oils) version. One thing is for sure: you'll have to read all that info opening your mind to other beliefs you may have now, including the theory that a successful diet is simply the exercise of eating less than the energy we expand (deficit). I know it's been a challenge with me. But what I'm reading so far is compelling.

Please share your thoughts as you discover stuff and as months go by. I surely will.

PS: I know nothing about Paleo so all I said above is mainly about LCHF

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zerryz

I'm not paleo or low carb. I'm just asking if the cited research is legit or if there are problems with it.

From what Dr Attia says, and that's only for LCHF, there's very little research done on it, hence the NUSI initiative. In other words, the jury's still out..

As for Paleo, Christina Warinner 's research seems to argue that it's just a fad. Watch her Ted video here: http://youtu.be/BMOjVYgYaG8

TheVimFuego

I'd say that the benefits from a fat loss perspective are overblown, calories in/out still rule.

The Taubes books previously recommended (and many more in a similar vein) and they have huge holes in them from a scientific point of view and most people would be better off restricting nothing that they have not been medically advised to avoid. Just hit a deficit and enjoy everything.

I did the whole Paleo thing for 9 months or so, all very fun to be part of a community and I even have a "Grok" t-shirt but scientifically the whole premise is flawed. It's not just about "evil insulin" shuttling fat into storage.

Good luck with yer health goals.

ldrosophila

found this interesting...

How to Lose Weight

Choose a low carb diet
Eat when hungry
Eat real food
Measure your progress wisely
Be patient
Women: Avoid fruit
Men: Avoid beer
Avoid artificial sweeteners
Review any medications
Stress less, sleep more
Eat less dairy products and nuts
Supplement vitamins and minerals
Exercise smart
Achieve optimal ketosis
Get your hormones checked
coming soon
coming soon



Personally, and of course i didnt spend a lot of time on the site. It makes my hair stand on end. I poked around in a couple of the cited studies. As far as I could see there was only one that looked at hypocaloric diets.

Talking again about paleo diet and all of it is supposition...no one really knows how our early ancestors ate and how far back are we going? When we lived in trees? The idea of a physcian seriously discussing paleo is equivalent to him discussing blood letting in my mind.

I have a huge problem with his "theory" on why countries that eat a large amount of rice are thin. http://www.dietdoctor.com/why-are-asian-rice-eaters-thin
And someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the primary rice in Asiatic countries was white?

He drops the ball on the cohort study with relation to red meat consumption and cancer.

Then calling fruit nature's candy...yeah sorry to me there is a bias here. I'm sure it's a well reasoned physician who wants nothing more than to see his patients healthy, but I'm not convinced.

ldrosophila

http://www.dietdoctor.com/why-americans-are-fat

interesting someone from a different country correlated our obesity epidemic to eating sugar and not portion distortion.

also his comparison of our obesity epidemic is on a cruise ship...not sure how great of an extrapolation that is.

I wonder what his thoughts would be on the long term studies of national weight loss registry which found most of the long terms followed a low fat diet?

J Nutr Educ Behav. 2005 Jul-Aug;37(4):206-10.
The National Weight Control Registry: is it useful in helping deal with our obesity epidemic?
Hill JO, Wyatt H, Phelan S, Wing R.
Author information
Abstract
The National Weight Control Registry (NWCR) consists of over 4800 individuals who have been successful in long-term weight loss maintenance. The purpose of establishing the NWCR was to identify the common characteristics of those who succeed in long-term weight loss maintenance. We found very little similarity in how these individuals lost weight but some common behaviors in how they are keeping their weight off. To maintain their weight loss NWCR participants report eating a relatively low-fat diet, eating breakfast almost every day, weighing themselves regularly, and engaging in high levels (about 1 hour/day) of physical activity. Because this is not a random sample of those who attempt weight loss, the results have limited generalizability to the entire population of overweight and obese individuals. The value of this project lies in identifying potential strategies that may help others be more successful in keeping weight off.

Wetcoaster

This is 50 pages long from Alan Agaron

The Paleo Diet : Claims vs Evidence

http://www.nsca.com/uploadedFiles/NSCA/Inactive_Content/Program_Books/PTC_2013_Program_Book/Aragon.pdf




Paleo site interviewing Alan

http://paleomovement.com/alan-aragon-paleo-critic/

Mr_Knight

If by "low carb" you mean "lower calories by eating fewer carbs", then you will lose weight.

If by "low carb" you mean "eat **** loads of bacon but stay away from the bread", you will not lose weight.

PS That paper you linked ended with

"...long term effects on health are unknown".

PPS From comments at PubMed...

Synthesis reaped a major flaw: the studies were meta-analysed in forest plots by changes from baseline – not against the controls. This explains the greater effect sizes than expected, and probably represents a fatal flaw: in effect, only the intervention arms of the RCTs were included in a before-after comparison; Transfer of the results was therefore not really applicable.

Translation: the study authors didn't find what they were looking for using normal analysis methods, so they cooked up an alternate analysis method that allowed them to claim something they wanted to claim.

takumaku

Different strokes for different folks. Some people have medical conditions and find the LC lifestyle benefit them greatly. Some like the food LC-ers eat. If it works for you, that is all that matters.

Sabine_Stroehm

Dunno. What I *do* know is:

1: It's easier to eat as I plan when I don't eat foods with a lot of added sugars, and when limit foods with a high GL. (including things like starchy carbs, foods with HFCS, including breads and tortillas that have HFCS).

2. I know that I feel better when I don't eat a lot of heavily processed foods (many of which have added sugars, and HFCS.). See #1

YMMV, of course.

Otherwise, don't know. Just know what works for me all these years.

Best of luck to all in figuring out what works for them.

ja20102004

I am gonna eat my damn carbs. love them!

Mangopickle

White rice (aka processed rice) was introduced to Asia back in the 50's I think which was when Asians began to acquire type 2diabetes just like Americans. If you only have 1cup of rice a day there is probably no big problem-and in many third world countries that is all they get. All my affluent Filipino relatives that scarf down a cup+ of white rice per meal are all diabetic or pre diabetic even if they are thin.

ndj1979

in….for the show, and the science….

ndj1979

here is what I will say….they lost weight because they used paleo, low carb, whatever to create a calorie deficit…

Paloe, IF, Low Carb, etc are not magical ways to lose weight..they are just a tool to create a calorie deficit to lose weight..

you can eat high carb/non paleo, and lose weight…

calories in vs calories out...

Sabine_Stroehm

The question is if you can put up with this diet for the rest of your life?

Studies suggest that you won't be able to and regain any lost weight and more within five years.

I agree, to a point. I would say one could use one approach to lose weight as long as they adopt a healthy approach to maintenance. That's what really matters. One obviously can't go back to 3k days (unless they burn a ton) and expect to maintain. But one could lose via low carb, and take their loss, say 5 LBS below goal, then switch to something healthy and at maintenance calories, gain a few pounds of water weight after adding some carbs, and MAINTAIN.

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ndj1979

here is what I will say….they lost weight because they used paleo, low carb, whatever to create a calorie deficit…

Paloe, IF, Low Carb, etc are not magical ways to lose weight..they are just a tool to create a calorie deficit to lose weight..

you can eat high carb/non paleo, and lose weight…

calories in vs calories out...

This isn't about losing weight.

It's not? The link you posted referenced losing weight..

Imho paleontology and low carb is bunk

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ndj1979

here is what I will say….they lost weight because they used paleo, low carb, whatever to create a calorie deficit…

Paloe, IF, Low Carb, etc are not magical ways to lose weight..they are just a tool to create a calorie deficit to lose weight..

you can eat high carb/non paleo, and lose weight…

calories in vs calories out...

This isn't about losing weight.

It's not? The link you posted referenced losing weight..

Imho paleontology and low carb is bunk

No. It's about optimum health and proper nutrition.

i don't see how low carb or paleo promote optimum health and proper nutrition...

Unknown

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ndj1979

here is what I will say….they lost weight because they used paleo, low carb, whatever to create a calorie deficit…

Paloe, IF, Low Carb, etc are not magical ways to lose weight..they are just a tool to create a calorie deficit to lose weight..

you can eat high carb/non paleo, and lose weight…

calories in vs calories out...

This isn't about losing weight.

It's not? The link you posted referenced losing weight..

Imho paleontology and low carb is bunk

No. It's about optimum health and proper nutrition.

i don't see how low carb or paleo promote optimum health and proper nutrition...

I mostly was asking about the research, not opinions. I don't mean to sound rude. I just wanted very specific information based upon the website and the research it sites.

maybe you should start a private group then...

toddis

I'd say there are 16 articles linked on that page, read the summaries from them. Of course,they are probably hen picked to prove a point. You could always do a pubmed or google scholar search for terms like LCHF or paleo and see what the evidence shows.

The part about low fat being debunked I think is pretty solid at this point. Also it seems to me it points out the fallacy of demonizing any specific part of the diet and glorifying other parts.

Sabine_Stroehm

here is what I will say….they lost weight because they used paleo, low carb, whatever to create a calorie deficit…

Paloe, IF, Low Carb, etc are not magical ways to lose weight..they are just a tool to create a calorie deficit to lose weight..

you can eat high carb/non paleo, and lose weight…

calories in vs calories out...

This isn't about losing weight.

It's not? The link you posted referenced losing weight..

Imho paleontology and low carb is bunk

No. It's about optimum health and proper nutrition.

i don't see how low carb or paleo promote optimum health and proper nutrition...

I mostly was asking about the research, not opinions. I don't mean to sound rude. I just wanted very specific information based upon the website and the research it sites.

maybe you should start a private group then...

And when folks do that, jonnythan and company complain that folks start private groups because they don't want to entertain any other info...

KayNowayJose

I apologize, I'm on a Keto diet, so that's what my resources are on. I have looked at a few Paleo books in some book stores before but they didn't fit my needs so I didn't get them, although many of sources on link one do define themselves as just "low carb". As to what I've read into so far, I have found The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living: An Expert Guide to Making the Life-Saving Benefits of Carbohydrate Restriction Sustainable and Enjoyable: by Dr. Jeff Volek, and Dr. Stephen Phinney to be the most helpful.

http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/resources.html

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/93/4/901S.full

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23632752

http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/ketosis.html

http://authoritynutrition.com/23-studies-on-low-carb-and-low-fat-diets/

Mr_Knight

White rice (aka processed rice) was introduced to Asia back in the 50's I think which was when Asians began to acquire type 2diabetes just like Americans.

How do people manage to come up with such obvious nonsense with so much information available with just a few keystrokes?

Extensive use of polished rice in Asia goes back to the 1600s.

Unknown

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