Female Recruits in the Marines Failing Pullup Tests

kelly_e_montana

Interesting article: https://www.facebook.com/NPR/posts/10152213566866756 Basically an article about female Marine recruits failing pullup standards...

What's your take? Is it a training issue or are women genetically disadvantaged in doing pull ups? Are pull ups a relevant measure of readiness for being a Marine? Should other factors like lower body strength be tested more?

I don't have an opinion. I can't do a pullup yet but I do see quite a few women at my Crossfit box who can do pullups and those who can't. I expect to do a strict pull up within a year, but I don't think I could do it in a short period of time, especially since I work on them 4-5 days per week. How would you work through this issue with women in their training? Pull ups do reward lower body weight, regardless of strength. I have 125 lbs of just lean mass and I have women in my box who weigh 125 total doing pullups when they are far behind me on other upper body strength moves (I can pull up that much assisted and more), so it's an interesting topic. I can see the benefits to lower body weight when you need to pull yourself out of something.



I just thought it was interesting...

Ainar

I do think that they just don't train enough. Female or not if you train hard you can go from zero to more than 12 pull ups in at least 3 months. Need to prepare before they apply and don't need to become lazy with training once you have been accepted.

If they can't do pull ups they should not be in marines. Yes, I think it is very relevant and important. What if in battle situation you have to climb somewhere and pull your body weight up, or else you will die? Also, it will probably be with heavy backpack on your back as well. Same goes for lover body strength. What if you have to carry something heavy or you mate what has been shot or something. Not all females could carry 200 pound male, or even another 130 pound female, which, if you are in marines, is pretty pathetic.

The problem is that soldier doesn't even train for being a soldier these days. A lot of people just join military to get some other jobs what has nothing to do with combat and don't even ever thing there will be time when they need to do real combat. But what if something like this happens? You never know, another war might start, hopefully not, but it could. So then their failure to do something as basic as pull up in some situations might cos them or even their team mates a life.

waylandcool

Pull-ups aren't really lower body exercises as much as they are lower back workouts. People should know the standards going in and work on attaining those standards.

I agree that being able to do pull ups can be essential in a combat role. The biggest problem right now is you don't know when you are going to be in combat due to the amount of ambushes going on. You need to be prepared for any situation so that even if you are in a non combat role, the combat could come to you.

kelly_e_montana

I definitely think that you're correct in the idea about pre-training before applying. I don't see women I know who are working on pullups get them in three months, so in my opinion, women should be informed it's something they'll need to work on ahead of time. (I'm not saying none get them in three months, but I've see a lot who take much longer even with consistent effort. For heaven's sakes, I worked on splits every day for four years and never got them so I understand some just might not get certain things in a reasonable amount of time.)

BeastnIron

I think its something they will have to be informed about before going in but now you have all the present females who have been doing the hang ones on the bar and now they have to switch but i was in the Marines Corps infantry for 10 years and sad to say its guys that couldn't do 3 but it is attainable for anyone if you work at it.

neandermagnon

Women have a disadvantage when it comes to doing pull-ups, because men have greater upper body strength. That's just life. Blame evolution for that one. But it's not impossible for women to do pull-ups, and if they're a required standard, then that standard should apply to women as it does to men. The army guy in the article who said that they need to improve training so more women develop enough strength, I agree with him. Women are not, on average, as strong as men in terms of upper body strength, that's the reality. Training can get people of both genders a lot stronger, so the solution is for female recruits to do a lot of extra strength training. Lowering standards to allow more women in isn't something I'd agree with, especially not as sufficient upper body strength is a matter of survival in combat... it's not some arbitrary standard that's just for bureaucrats to tick boxes on forms.

MeanderingMammal

What's your take? Is it a training issue or are women genetically disadvantaged in doing pull ups? Are pull ups a relevant measure of readiness for being a Marine? Should other factors like lower body strength be tested more?

There are a number of different aspects to the issue, although a health warning on all of this is that the argument about "ground combat" is specious. All trades have the potential to be involved in Troops in Contact (TIC) situations, the main thing that's being introduced is the potential for women to be engaged in deliberate operations to close with and kill the enemy.

With the resurgence of counter-insurgency we're no longer talking about the third shock army pouring through the Fulda gap when the Russian Horde would roll over the top of the forward line of troops made up of infantry and armour.

Is upper body strength significant? In many roles, yes it is but that is not the preserve of Inf and Armour. The main difference is volume, and endurance. So we need all to be able to demonstrate that upper body strength, and maintain it.

So we move on to whether a pull up is an appropriate test for that upper body strength? Many other tests are now situation appropriate, having moved away from those that weren't representative of what actually happens on a day to day basis. In that sense the examples cited aren't reasonable. The ability to complete three pull ups in the gym doesn't easily relate to getting over a wall in wet kit and wearing fighting order, a daysac and carrying a personal weapon. It also doesn't reflect the need to carry loads for protracted periods, or awkward loads. In my own trade one of the tests now is a 100m run carrying 40Kg, with a time threshold that's age based. In other trades I've seen the need to carry a "body" for a period using an appropriate posture.

Notwithstanding all of that the level of failure does reflect training. And my concern would be that this is talked about at the end of basic training. If recruits aren't passing this at the end of their training that is a failure of their directing staff.

I should probably add that a number of militaries now include women in their combat arms, without any significant issues. That said injury rates do appear higher, recovery from injury takes longer and repeat injury rates are higher. That tends to mean that productivity in role is lower, leading to a slight increase in headcount requirements. That's based on some material I've seen from the Defence Analytical and Statistical Agency.

TheRoadDog

I know that things have changed somewhat since I was in the Marines 40 years ago, but I served with Women Marines (although there were no women in Combat) and they're training was very rigorous then.

There were some more physically capable than others, but then, the same could be said for their maie counterparts. I would proudly serve along side a woman Marine. Even in Combat.

My daughter is currently engaged to a Marine. I made the trip to see him graduate and I saw recruites in training. They are still as formidable as they were 40 years ago.

Haven't really addressed the pull up issue, but in my experience, the ability to do 20 pushups was never a make or break issue in my service.

Semper Fi.

ShellyBell999

Thank-you for your service RoadDog!!

Took me about 3 mos. of consistent effort to go from zero to 3 sets of five pull-ups.
Keep working at them.

MeanderingMammal

But that would mean change... The military doesn't do change . That said it would help boost the market for retired mid seniority officers pontificating in the media.

MercenaryNoetic26

Didn't read article, but agree with previous poster you can achieve pull-ups in less time. If you're as strong as you say you are and as lean this should be something you can achieve quicker than a year. Practice everyday/ frequently in addition to your whole body training routine (assuming you're doing that; especially back)

Eta: Just 3 pull-ups is reasonable. Surprised that's all that's expected for a Marine.