super simplified strength program for cutting

pcastagner

Ok question for the strength folks:

I'm happy with my progress in body composition so far, as I've gone from kinda fat guy to pretty fit guy in a year.

However, it has taken me a while to get my act together on strength and as a result my squat in particular is very weak, with my 5RM only 10lbs heavier than my 5rm bench press. That's pretty sad IMO. I'm just at the start of a cut, and feeling like the last bulk would have gone better had I not been chasing strength progress I could have achieved while losing weight.

I've been doing an upper/lower split, but I've decided squats twice a week just isn't enough, and I've noticed I get the most benefits for work from the squat, deadlift, and OHP. So as I begin this latest slow cut, I'm considering the following (warmups not included). What I'm trying to figure out is, how much do I need to stimulate to reduce muscle loss? Can I get away with just OHP, squats, pullups, and deads?

so I'm thinking either:

Every other day - squat,OHP,pullup 5x5's, with deadlifts once every 8 days

or

the following 8 day cycle:

Day 1
OHP 5x5
Dips to failure x5
chinups to failure x5

day 2
rest

Day 3
Squat 5x5
Pull-up failx5
Good Morning 8x3

day4
rest

day5
Squat
OHP
chin-up

day6
rest

day 7
Squat 5x5
bench press 5x5
deadlift 5x3

day 8 rest




comments or criticisms most welcome. I generally need 8 days after deads to get back to full strength.

current stats: 170lbs
Deadlift 245lbs x 3 (double overhand grip)
Squat 160 x5
OHP 95 x5
Bench 150 x5

CarlKRobbo

Right, so first thing first, sorry if this sounds harsh...

How come it takes 8 days to recover from deads? It shouldn't really take that long - I've pulled 2 PB's in 3 days before, granted I'm A) Bulking, and Lifting for over 3 years, but 8 days is a bit long.

Regarding a extra simple workout, what you have is good, but I'd suggest a few tweaks:

You only have a vertical pull - Pull-ups I'd add a Horizontal one as well i.e: BOR, an extra move for the posterior chain as well - i.e SLDL

For a simple workout, here's the workout I started with 3 years ago. Workout A, Workout B, 3 times a week, rotate - So week 1 = A, Rest. B, Rest, A, then week 2 is B, Rest, A, Rest, B, then cycle..

A:
Squats
bench press
SLDL
OHP
chinups/pullups

B:
Deadlift
dips
Lunges
dumbbell shoulder press
bent over rowing

pcastagner

Right, so first thing first, sorry if this sounds harsh...

How come it takes 8 days to recover from deads? It shouldn't really take that long - I've pulled 2 PB's in 3 days before, granted I'm A) Bulking, and Lifting for over 3 years, but 8 days is a bit long.

lol because I am old?

ok I'll rework this. more deads. I guess my reasoning was that Rippetoe recommends once a week, and since I'm cutting I would add a day, and run an 8 day cycle of every other daily workouts. I'm not sure my brain can handle just three days a week. I'll go insane.

could I do good mornings instead of SLDL? Anything I could sub in for bent over rowing? I mean if not, I'll just get over it and do them.

Huffdogg

5x5 is a lot of volume for cutting if you've already started to stall. Maybe look into RPT as the format for your lifts to maximize intensity and decrease volume a bit.

pcastagner

5x5 is a lot of volume for cutting if you've already started to stall. Maybe look into RPT as the format for your lifts to maximize intensity and decrease volume a bit.

reading now. many thanks.

Huffdogg

YW. IMO, after you've exhausted noob gains, autoregulation is the way to go when cutting.

CarlKRobbo

Right, so first thing first, sorry if this sounds harsh...

How come it takes 8 days to recover from deads? It shouldn't really take that long - I've pulled 2 PB's in 3 days before, granted I'm A) Bulking, and Lifting for over 3 years, but 8 days is a bit long.

lol because I am old?

ok I'll rework this. more deads. I guess my reasoning was that Rippetoe recommends once a week, and since I'm cutting I would add a day, and run an 8 day cycle of every other daily workouts. I'm not sure my brain can handle just three days a week. I'll go insane.

could I do good mornings instead of SLDL? Anything I could sub in for bent over rowing? I mean if not, I'll just get over it and do them.

Yes, you could sub Good Mornings for SLDL. BOR, not much you can sub in really, OAR/Krock rows, T-Bar Rows could go in place...

pcastagner

Right, so first thing first, sorry if this sounds harsh...

How come it takes 8 days to recover from deads? It shouldn't really take that long - I've pulled 2 PB's in 3 days before, granted I'm A) Bulking, and Lifting for over 3 years, but 8 days is a bit long.

lol because I am old?

ok I'll rework this. more deads. I guess my reasoning was that Rippetoe recommends once a week, and since I'm cutting I would add a day, and run an 8 day cycle of every other daily workouts. I'm not sure my brain can handle just three days a week. I'll go insane.

could I do good mornings instead of SLDL? Anything I could sub in for bent over rowing? I mean if not, I'll just get over it and do them.

Yes, you could sub Good Mornings for SLDL. BOR, not much you can sub in really, OAR/Krock rows, T-Bar Rows could go in place...

just saw a video of pendlay showing how to do the row. now I want to do them. what i've been seeing bros do in the gym, not so much.


I'm gonna give this RPT thing 30 days. let's see what happens.

Huffdogg

Pendlay rows are the only type of barbell row I do.

TR0berts

Pendlay rows > "regular" barbell bent-over rows.


If you find Pendlay rows to be a little too taxing on your lower back, you can always go the chest-supported row route.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxOr-FNIC2g

jwdieter

Whenever I see something incongruous like squat max barely higher than bench, especially for someone who isn't just a titanic upper body, I think there's probably a form/flexibility issue to address.

pcastagner

Pendlay rows > "regular" barbell bent-over rows.


If you find Pendlay rows to be a little too taxing on your lower back, you can always go the chest-supported row route.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxOr-FNIC2g

If they are too much for my back I'll just find an auxiliary lift to straighten things out. My back is not too shabby but I'll report back after today's workout.

pcastagner

I did day one of the RPT program posted here: http://www.fitocracy.com/knowledge/starting-guide-reverse-pyramid-training/

IT WAS AWESOME!

I'm just at the stage where I can do a chinup with enough weight to do a back-off set without assistance, so the recommendation came right on time!

pcastagner

YW. IMO, after you've exhausted noob gains, autoregulation is the way to go when cutting.

please explain autoregulation! thanks

Chieflrg

I would add some vertical pull/push on the days you are doing horizontals and vice-versa.

Maybe change it up a bit on your fail days to add weights to your dips/chins/pull ups too.

pcastagner

I would add some vertical pull/push on the days you are doing horizontals and vice-versa.

Maybe change it up a bit on your fail days to add weights to your dips/chins/pull ups too.

yeah this is really coming home to me, that I can't get away with just vertical.

also the weighted dips/chins and eventually pull-ups.

googlebear123

jason blaha 5x5,

http://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/jason-blaha-ice-cream-fitness-5x5-novice-workout

Huffdogg

YW. IMO, after you've exhausted noob gains, autoregulation is the way to go when cutting.

please explain autoregulation! thanks

autoregulation: programming that bases your intensity/reps/sets on capacity on a daily basis, rather than following a prescribed % of 1RM/rep/set scheme.

5/3/1, Westside, Cube, etc are all programmed periodization
RPT, Bulgarian, Nemesis, etc are autoregulated

To a certain extent, SS and SL are autoregulated, because you have a plan in place for if/when you miss at any increment. From another standpoint, they are not, because they come with the inherent supposition that you will never regress on any day.

halleymw

You might look into the All Pro Beginner routine, supposed to be better when on a cut than ss or sl . It is a full body 3 day a week program, sort of a modified Stronglifts with a couple of added acc. lifts.

http://simplebeginnersroutine.com/

Mike

pcastagner

YW. IMO, after you've exhausted noob gains, autoregulation is the way to go when cutting.

please explain autoregulation! thanks

autoregulation: programming that bases your intensity/reps/sets on capacity on a daily basis, rather than following a prescribed % of 1RM/rep/set scheme.

5/3/1, Westside, Cube, etc are all programmed periodization
RPT, Bulgarian, Nemesis, etc are autoregulated

To a certain extent, SS and SL are autoregulated, because you have a plan in place for if/when you miss at any increment. From another standpoint, they are not, because they come with the inherent supposition that you will never regress on any day.

knowledge acquired! thanks!

TR0berts

5/3/1, Westside, Cube, etc are all programmed periodization
RPT, Bulgarian, Nemesis, etc are autoregulated

To a certain extent, SS and SL are autoregulated, because you have a plan in place for if/when you miss at any increment. From another standpoint, they are not, because they come with the inherent supposition that you will never regress on any day.

I'd say that 5/3/1 is more autoregulated than SS or SL for three reasons. First, the last work set of the main lift is basically AMRAP (not to failure). As such, however many you do - as long as it's for the lower limit of reps - is fine. Secondly, if you don't feel like doing anything else that day, you don't have to. Wendler even states that there are some days he goes in, does the one main lift, and leaves. He also states that, while he can suggest accessory/assistance exercises and overall plans, it's ultimately up to each individual to figure out what (s)he needs and what works best for him/her. Which is the third reason - there are so many different ways to do 5/3/1 that each individual can choose for themselves what, exactly, to do.

Huffdogg

I agree with you to a certain extent. The main reason I'd put it lower than those other programs is my own experience with Wendler's, which is most certainly influenced by my career. As I don't think I'm alone in these circumstances, however, I think it's relevant.

I tried Wendler's in the summer time when I was working 60 hour weeks. 6 10's outside on a blast furnace. I slept 8.5 hours a night, I ate roughly 3k calories per day (215 lb male 35 years old 6' tall). Some days I couldn't even make the reps on the main lift. Like...I'm not talking about the minimum on the "X+" set at the end. I'm talking about the middling sets of the daily main lift. And I used 90% of my 1RM to set my program intensity. IMO, any program that prescribes a certain amount of reps/sets based on a % 1RM and doesn't have a built-in reaction to what you do if you miss a rep is automatically less autoregulated than a program that does.

I can see a relationship between the effects of working out a balance with energy levels on a cut to the reaction I had trying to work that program while working overtime in the summer. I switched over to an RPT program (100% autoreg) and did much better.

I do 100% see what you mean about 5/3/1 having a degree of it built in, but Jim's insistence that you ought never miss a training rep on the program really made me feel crashed when I did. Like I said, personal experience.

erickirb

I started doing 5/3/1 a couple weeks ago and am cutting now myself (250 cal deficit), I find I need the recovery time and just the one working set is great when you don't have as much "fuel" to help you recover.

monty619

main difference from bulking lifting routine to a cutting lifting routine... less volume on a cutting routine (focus more on keeping strength because you probably wont build any skeletal muscle.)

Huffdogg

I'd also like to throw out there that this is one of the more intelligent conversations I've ever had on MFP, so thanks to all involved for that lol.

DeadliftAddict

Right, so first thing first, sorry if this sounds harsh...

How come it takes 8 days to recover from deads? It shouldn't really take that long - I've pulled 2 PB's in 3 days before, granted I'm A) Bulking, and Lifting for over 3 years, but 8 days is a bit long.

Regarding a extra simple workout, what you have is good, but I'd suggest a few tweaks:

You only have a vertical pull - Pull-ups I'd add a Horizontal one as well i.e: BOR, an extra move for the posterior chain as well - i.e SLDL

For a simple workout, here's the workout I started with 3 years ago. Workout A, Workout B, 3 times a week, rotate - So week 1 = A, Rest. B, Rest, A, then week 2 is B, Rest, A, Rest, B, then cycle..

A:
Squats
bench press
SLDL
OHP
chinups/pullups

B:
Deadlift
dips
Lunges
dumbbell shoulder press
bent over rowing

Man, I like this. I am just started into the strength aspect of lifting. Been in the 6-8 or 8-10 rep range for a full year now. This year looking into strength rep ranges 3-5 or so. I started Brandon Campbells P.H.U.L. program so I can get the best of both worlds. Power days Monday and Tuesday with Hypertrophy days on Thursday and Friday. After the first two power days I'm loving it. Your split may be my next program after at least 12 or so on P.H.U.L.

JoRocka

I'd also like to throw out there that this is one of the more intelligent conversations I've ever had on MFP, so thanks to all involved for that lol.

probably explains why it's so short thus far LOL

Good stuff in here.

Huff is so smart- and there for- I have nothing to add.

except- 8 days between deads is way to long- I can hardly make a week- I usually do one day heavy and back day I include light deads. .

pcastagner

Right, so first thing first, sorry if this sounds harsh...

How come it takes 8 days to recover from deads? It shouldn't really take that long - I've pulled 2 PB's in 3 days before, granted I'm A) Bulking, and Lifting for over 3 years, but 8 days is a bit long.

Regarding a extra simple workout, what you have is good, but I'd suggest a few tweaks:

You only have a vertical pull - Pull-ups I'd add a Horizontal one as well i.e: BOR, an extra move for the posterior chain as well - i.e SLDL

For a simple workout, here's the workout I started with 3 years ago. Workout A, Workout B, 3 times a week, rotate - So week 1 = A, Rest. B, Rest, A, then week 2 is B, Rest, A, Rest, B, then cycle..

A:
Squats
bench press
SLDL
OHP
chinups/pullups

B:
Deadlift
dips
Lunges
dumbbell shoulder press
bent over rowing

Man, I like this. I am just started into the strength aspect of lifting. Been in the 6-8 or 8-10 rep range for a full year now. This year looking into strength rep ranges 3-5 or so. I started Brandon Campbells P.H.U.L. program so I can get the best of both worlds. Power days Monday and Tuesday with Hypertrophy days on Thursday and Friday. After the first two power days I'm loving it. Your split may be my next program after at least 12 or so on P.H.U.L.

I tried a split like that and really loved it! Unfortunately I had to stop doing it because I wound up with disruptive DOMS, even after two months.

FrnkLft

Why not keep the Upper / Lower and just do something like this:

Day 1: Bench 3x5 & Press 3x10, Abs
Day 3: Press 3x5 & Bench 3x10, Abs

Day 2: Deadlift 3x5 & Squat 3x10, Row 3x10
Day 4: Squat 3x5 & SL DL 3x10, Row 3x5

There you keep some hypertrophy work, everything gets hit twice a week, and you have a mix of heavy and light work.

pcastagner

So here is what I'm going with in the end. For the next 30 days at least:

day1
Deadlift 4-6 x1, back off set x1
OHP 6x8 1 set
Weighted chin 4-6, 2 back off sets
Pendlay row 5-8 x2

day3
OHP RPT
push-ups x2

day 5
Squats RPT
dips if I'm feeling frisky


I start each workout with 8x 1min sets of Thai jump rope, followed by a little warm up circuit in the smith machine, which consists of inverted rows, situps, and push-ups.

I've left off the bench for a couple of reasons: for one, I'm not a huge fan of the big chest look anyway, but more important, benching involves a tightness across the front of the body without requiring the back to fully support the load. That's ok for some, but my job is singing opera, and in that context it's useful to tilt things in favor of the posterior chain, since the fundamental problem of exhalation is management of posture during a controlled exhalation that can subject the body to relatively long periods with a vacuum in the chest cavity. Squats, deads, and OHP seem to do a really great job strengthening and developing sensitivity and control in the muscles executing crucial isometric and eccentric pulls back there during exhalation (despite the breath being held during the lifts). OHP has the further benefit of being really good at reminding you which way is up, which any dancer or singer can tell you is very easily forgotten.

I'm not saying I'll never bench again. But since my bench is only 10 lbs behind my squat, and doesn't matter to me as much, I'm a perfect candidate to take the "substitute the press for bench" option found here: http://rippedbody.jp/reverse-pyramid-training/

whitebalance

In to lurk on good advice from smart people. Please ignore me and resume. :flowerforyou: