McDougall vs. 80/10/10 vs. Macronutrients

rsmorlen

So I've heard a lot about different types of vegan diets. McDougall's high starch diet, Dr. Gramm's high fruit raw diet, and also just a vegan diet while watching your macro ratios.

My question is; which is better for a crossfit athlete? Gaining muscle mass and also maintaining health.

It's my understanding that complex carbs are great for athletes, but both Mcdougall and Gramm promote simple carbs. One through starches like white rice and potatoes, and the other through large amounts of fruit. Neither of which promote high amounts of protein.
I've also read that we don't need as much protein as what we've been taught, and this conflicts with the "optimal" ratio of macro-nutrients that is preached throughout the fitness world.

Any insight and help would be great.

neanderthin

For future reference, rice and potatoes are complex carbs. To build muscle and be in a deficit requires more protein just to maintain muscle than either of these diets, so be mindful of that. And the guidance that we don't need a lot of protein is pretty much vegan propaganda........considering it's extremely difficult in general in these diets come as no surprise, belief is not science.

rsmorlen

So then how is that there are bodybuilders who are vegan and even raw that have begun to emerge and win competitions?

Also, being vegan in itself is not difficult by any means. I've been vegan for 2 weeks now and find it rather easy. You just replace your meats and dairy with vegan alternatives like tofu, tempeh, seiten, beans and lentils. So my problem isn't where to get my macro-nutrients, it's rather which ratio is right for health and strength.

rsmorlen

Many vegans would also say that the guidance that you need high protein is propaganda as well. I'm not saying either view is correct, I haven't been vegan long enough to determine. It's just hard to accept either view when everyone supporting their sides just says the other is just propaganda.

jwdieter

There are vegan protein powders, which vegan bbs use. 80/10/10 is if you're looking to shrink muscles.

eric_sg61

So then how is that there are bodybuilders who are vegan and even raw that have begun to emerge and win competitions?

Who?

erickirb

at 80/10/10 you will have trouble building muscle, and if you are cutting good luck retaining what you already have. 80/10/10 may be okay for endurance athletes, I doubt it is any good if you want to carry muscle.

AprilLizbethWire

I want in on this. I've been trying out a plant based diet for the past few months and haven't really had trouble with getting enough protein for me - however I'm not a body builder. So far I've had issues with Calcium and Iron.

Anyway, I'm interested to see where this leads.

AprilLizbethWire

Some websites that might help you:

http://www.forksoverknives.com/frank-medrano-powered-by-plants/


http://vegancalisthen-x.com/

Frank Medrano is a vegan body builder. The first link kinda talks about him, and the second link is his website. I just kind of browsed the websites - hope they help!

neanderthin

So then how is that there are bodybuilders who are vegan and even raw that have begun to emerge and win competitions?

Also, being vegan in itself is not difficult by any means. I've been vegan for 2 weeks now and find it rather easy. You just replace your meats and dairy with vegan alternatives like tofu, tempeh, seiten, beans and lentils. So my problem isn't where to get my macro-nutrients, it's rather which ratio is right for health and strength.

If you have all the answers what is it exactly your asking?

rsmorlen

I don't have all the answers, I'm just letting you know what I've found. You've misread the tone of that message. I also find it pointless to just say someone's wrong and not explain. I'm not disagreeing with you, I just want to know why you're saying what you're saying.

rsmorlen

http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/?page=bios_strength

neanderthin

http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/?page=bios_strength

If you go to their forums a look at protein as a subject, most vegans are saying 1g per lb of lean mass, which is the same here.......why are you confused? you linked the site.

livingleanlivingclean

So then how is that there are bodybuilders who are vegan and even raw that have begun to emerge and win competitions?

Who?

While I know there are vegan bodybuilders, I wouldn't know who they are... Most on the site mentioned above aren't overly impressive.

Are there any that have always been vegan, or have most built their bodies prior to becoming vegan? Do they rely on lots of protein supplements to get enough protein? Are they natural?

I think it's important to look at the physiques of the people recommending certain "diets". This is a pretty good indication of what it does for you...the people I've seen recommending 80/10/10 look thin and weedy, and IMO, sick and unhealthy. I don't aspire to look like that, so I choose to follow a different breakdown

rsmorlen

http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/?page=bios_strength

If you go to their forums a look at protein as a subject, most vegans are saying 1g per lb of lean mass, which is the same here.......why are you confused? you linked the site.

Ok, my original post was about which VEGAN nutrition plan is optimal for athletes and health. You brought up that a vegan diet is extremely difficult to maintain, which has nothing to do with what I was asking. Having said that, I see that these bodybuilders suggest a high amount of protein to be BODYBUILDERS.

So I guess my question is this; For someone who is just looking to be healthy, but still be athletic and develop practical strength, which plant based diet is appropriate? Why?

rsmorlen

at 80/10/10 you will have trouble building muscle, and if you are cutting good luck retaining what you already have. 80/10/10 may be okay for endurance athletes, I doubt it is any good if you want to carry muscle.

Okay so is this diet optimal for endurance athletes because of the high amount of carbs? And in that case, wouldn't McDougall's diet also be optimal for endurance athletes?

livingleanlivingclean

at 80/10/10 you will have trouble building muscle, and if you are cutting good luck retaining what you already have. 80/10/10 may be okay for endurance athletes, I doubt it is any good if you want to carry muscle.

Okay so is this diet optimal for endurance athletes because of the high amount of carbs? And in that case, wouldn't McDougall's diet also be optimal for endurance athletes?

I would suggest that you may need more protein as an endurance athlete to help try and retain muscle.

neanderthin

http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/?page=bios_strength

If you go to their forums a look at protein as a subject, most vegans are saying 1g per lb of lean mass, which is the same here.......why are you confused? you linked the site.

Ok, my original post was about which VEGAN nutrition plan is optimal for athletes and health. You brought up that a vegan diet is extremely difficult to maintain, which has nothing to do with what I was asking. Having said that, I see that these bodybuilders suggest a high amount of protein to be BODYBUILDERS.

So I guess my question is this; For someone who is just looking to be healthy, but still be athletic and develop practical strength, which plant based diet is appropriate? Why?

No, what I said was that requiring an amount of protein to build or maintain muscle when dieting on a vegan diet is extremely difficult and the reason why most vegan sites try and discount protein in general, and probably why your here asking this very question. The vegan link you posted seemed to think it was important so maybe that may be a good place to get information about a vegan diet, considering it's vegan. Yoy.

rsmorlen

http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/?page=bios_strength

If you go to their forums a look at protein as a subject, most vegans are saying 1g per lb of lean mass, which is the same here.......why are you confused? you linked the site.

Ok, my original post was about which VEGAN nutrition plan is optimal for athletes and health. You brought up that a vegan diet is extremely difficult to maintain, which has nothing to do with what I was asking. Having said that, I see that these bodybuilders suggest a high amount of protein to be BODYBUILDERS.

So I guess my question is this; For someone who is just looking to be healthy, but still be athletic and develop practical strength, which plant based diet is appropriate? Why?

No, what I said was that requiring an amount of protein to build or maintain muscle when dieting on a vegan diet is extremely difficult and the reason why most vegan sites try and discount protein in general, and probably why your here asking this very question. The vegan link you posted seemed to think it was important so maybe that may be a good place to get information about a vegan diet, considering it's vegan. Yoy.

Ah okay, now I think we're on the same page. So you're saying that no mater what type of vegan lifestyle, it's difficult to build muscle, and therefore not great for someone doing crossfit, gymnastics, weightlifting. But it is possible.

Shellz31

I want in on this. I've been trying out a plant based diet for the past few months and haven't really had trouble with getting enough protein for me - however I'm not a body builder. So far I've had issues with Calcium and Iron.

Anyway, I'm interested to see where this leads.

Eat some beans/legumes and you'll have no trouble getting plenty of iron :happy: Butternut squash, chickpeas, some other select veggies, and fortified almond/soy/rice milk will get you calcium :bigsmile:

neanderthin

http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/?page=bios_strength

If you go to their forums a look at protein as a subject, most vegans are saying 1g per lb of lean mass, which is the same here.......why are you confused? you linked the site.

Ok, my original post was about which VEGAN nutrition plan is optimal for athletes and health. You brought up that a vegan diet is extremely difficult to maintain, which has nothing to do with what I was asking. Having said that, I see that these bodybuilders suggest a high amount of protein to be BODYBUILDERS.

So I guess my question is this; For someone who is just looking to be healthy, but still be athletic and develop practical strength, which plant based diet is appropriate? Why?

No, what I said was that requiring an amount of protein to build or maintain muscle when dieting on a vegan diet is extremely difficult and the reason why most vegan sites try and discount protein in general, and probably why your here asking this very question. The vegan link you posted seemed to think it was important so maybe that may be a good place to get information about a vegan diet, considering it's vegan. Yoy.

Ah okay, now I think we're on the same page. So you're saying that no mater what type of vegan lifestyle, it's difficult to build muscle, and therefore not great for someone doing crossfit, gymnastics, weightlifting. But it is possible.

Yes. Protein is the building block for muscle repair, maintenance and building and why if it isn't supplied through diet your body will simply break down existing muscle to supply those amino acids that are needed. When in a deficit protein also becomes more of the focus because that 10% that is recommended in that 1 diet can be pretty small and even on a 2000 calorie diet is still not enough for anyone that is active and imo is still insufficient for someone sedentary. I would suggest at least .8/g/lb/lbm and in a deficit add 30% if you active at all.

STC1188

After looking at the pics, they might be vegan, but they have some other "supplements" that are helping them build muscle. That changes the whole question because these "supplements" change dietary requirements.

However, I would recommend getting at least 1g/lb bodyweight if you are serious about any sort of muscle building (especially with all the fiber those sorts of diets have naturally).

rsmorlen

Okay so then the next question that comes up is about Soy protein. One of the most common sources of vegan protein is Soy (tofu and tempeh). I know you can buy rice, hemp, and pea protein powders, but I'm curious as to what I can eat not what supplements I need to buy.

So I've heard that, in men, Soy increases estrogen and is not good for them. But I've also heard that only applies to Soy isolates. So which is true? I am also aware there is wheat protein like seitan, and there are beans and lentils. Any comments on those would be great as well.

longwar

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/nutrient-metabolism-overview.html

That is a great primer on how the different nutrients work.
This (in order) is what's the body will use-Carbs first, then fats....and after absolute starvation it will start to dig into muscle to make glycogen. You eat your starches, eat some legumes, eat your greens. You will be a machine.

Eating at a deficit you will always lose fat and some lean body mass. The only people who can sometimes get away with losing fat but gaining muscle are absolute beginners to weight lifting. You want to look like a bodybuilder? Take drugs, eat over your maintenance calories..gain weight (fat and muscle) ...then diet you'll look ripped. Most guys who get on stage take drugs, that changes a lot. You want to look good naked? That's not a bodybuilder...that's Brad Pitt in fight club.

You have to think about why you want to be vegan. Health? Political/Moral? If you just want to lose weight faster there are a ton of ways to do that. I'm vegan because I've tried everything, and I felt my best as a vegan and other reasons.

Lastly, I would stay away from all the processed food. Tofu dogs, Wheat burgers, soy protein powders....most vegans who continue to eat processed food end up looking like everyone else who eats processed food. If you just don't want to kill animals, then that's cool. You want optimal health, stick to natural foods.

Good Luck!

FlaxMilk

You get can enough protein as a vegan, especially if you don't have gluten restrictions, but I don't honestly think the 80/10/10 plan is appropriate for pretty much anyone.

Achrya

You get can enough protein as a vegan, especially if you don't have gluten restrictions, but I don't honestly think the 80/10/10 plan is appropriate for pretty much anyone.

Is that 80-carb/10-protein/10-fat?


Jaysus.

FlaxMilk

You get can enough protein as a vegan, especially if you don't have gluten restrictions, but I don't honestly think the 80/10/10 plan is appropriate for pretty much anyone.

Is that 80-carb/10-protein/10-fat?

Jaysus.

Yup. And as someone who naturally gravitates toward carbs, carbs, and more carbs, I can vouch for you OP that you feel very different when you get enough protein and when you don't. And right now, I'm very sedentary, and I still feel the difference when I don't eat enough protein and when I do.