Have I been eating at "maintenance" all along?

Sweetface421 · January 2014

Again, my stats: I'm 46, 5'4", 164lbs. Wanting to lose 30 lbs.
I've been tracking and eating at a deficit for 25 days (26 today).
I've had a physical with blood work and all levels are within normal range. Blood pressure is normal and I have an "athletic heart" according to the doc. Just wish body matched that description

I was diagnosed anemic about two years ago but don't take meds any longer. Seems that issue has sorted itself out.
I was exercising 5 out of 7 days for about 15 days (Bodyrock circuit training), but stopped exercising about 10 days ago to see if I would notice a difference or see some movement on the scale. I had gained a pound and then lost it. I am lightly active, on my feet a good deal of the day: I'm a cake decorator, I lift heavy bags and heavy cakes, go up & down stairs all day, etc. I DO NOT EAT THE CAKE. I don't want to eat it because I smell it and work in it all day long.

I am still at the same weight that I was when I started 25 days ago.
Interestingly enough, I'm at the same weight I've been at for over a year now.

Does that mean that I've actually been eating at what would be considered "maintenance" for the last 25 days? Should I adjust my BMR for 500 calories less than what I'm eating now? That would put me at 920 calories! That doesn't sound right to me

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

cwolfman13 · January 2014

If your weight hasn't changed in a year then that means you have been eating maintenance for a year. Do you use food scales to weigh out portions of anything that has a weight as serving size? Do you use measuring cups for everything else? Do you log all of your condiments and cooking oils, etc?

Most likely you are underestimating your intake and not being as precise as you think you are. If your weight isn't changing then yes...you are maintaining...you just need to make sure you're being as precise as possible.

Before I started using a food scale and weighing and measuring pretty much everything, I thought I was eating around 1800 calories and not losing anything. Once I started to be consistent and log everything and most importantly, weigh and measure rather than eyeball...I quickly discovered I was eating about 550 calories more than I actually thought I was...that represented my entire deficit.

It was little things here and there like having a chicken breast and logging 4 oz...because its says a serving of chicken breast is 4oz...well and actual chicken breast is closer to 8 oz so I was eating 50% more than I thought I was. I also didn't log condiments and the like...turns out I was having way more than a Tbsp of ketchup with my roasted potatoes, etc, etc, etc...those calories add up. My handful of almonds that I was logging as 1 oz and 160 calories was about 1.5 oz and about 240 calories. I was logging 1 med apple when I'd have my apple...in reality, my apples are around 200g (from Costco)....so again, I was eating more than I was logging.

All of these errors add up quick...500 calories isn't that much wiggle room. One day of eating 4 oz more chicken breast than I logged and 1/2 Oz more nuts resulted in whopping 200 calories underestimated for my intake...and those were just the tip of the iceberg.

heybales · January 2014

Strictly speaking yes.

Now, the exact calories you are eating may be inaccurate by a decent amount, so in reality you are eating more, and must indeed bump down the calories.

Now, that will be a bump down in logged calories that may look really bad, but because you are inaccurate and actually eating more, it'll be a bump down from that really.
If you knew accurate calories it may not really be that bad.

But, before you do that, several things can be masking this.

If you are following the MFP method of eating back exercise calories to keep the deficit at 500 calories, not only may that burn be inflated from reality, but if also inaccurate eating back level there, it could be even more.

Also, if you have severely underestimated your activity and calorie burn, you could be badly undereating for level of activity, forcing body to adapt by slowing down as much of your daily activity as it can, therefore reducing your maintenance below where it's estimated to be or could be.

So I hope you have Lightly Active selected which it sounds like, hope you have 1 lb loss selected which it sounds like you do.

If exercise calories burn is with a cheaper Polar and you have an athletic heart, it's most likely underestimating your calorie burns. (it thinks low HR means low calorie burn, but if fit, that is not true).

So to keep it simple, without having to get in to being more accurate with logging foods or exercise, wait until you hit a full month (because your BMR as a woman literally does change through the month).
If still maintaining, and you didn't add an intense exercise routine just prior to last weigh-in a month ago, nor this coming weigh-in (false water weight gain), then cut out 500 calories from total eating level daily.

Don't change to more accurate logging at the same time, you'd probably double-down your deficit, not good either.
Do keep logging your exercise and eating back those calories the proper way, even if it is inflated, who cares, you've already adjusted for it by eating 500 less daily.

And you wouldn't adjust your BMR 500 less, you'd adjust your TDEE 500 less, which is what the above accomplishes. Since that's what is confirmed to be lower (well, or your eating is higher, however you want to view it).

JenMc14 · January 2014

I started at 165 at 5'4" and some change. I got down to 117 eating between 1300-1500 most days. I ended up gaining some weight back, and am working to get back to 120 from. My current136.

I agree with wolf man about being diligent about weighing and measuring all your food. Everything, even ketchup.

VioletHaz · January 2014

If you have only been exercising for the last 25 days you may be replacing fat with muscle which weighs more. Please don't eat less than 1200 cals, that's just not healthy. I eat the extra calories a work out gives me too because I am a busy person who needs energy.
Give it time and don't let the scale discourage you. Take some body measurements and measure against that in another two to three weeks but I bet the scale moves some by then

Good luck!

WalkingAlong · January 2014

Even though you stopped exercising, I still think you might have water weight issues muddying the waters. BodyRock is hard. I've stalled for months with a major step-up in exercise. The scale caught up in the end.

Though lowering your calories for a week or two isn't going to hurt, either. You don't have to go a full 500 less, if you feel like you're already low. Go 200 less.

lovebig30 · January 2014

you might be more active at work than you think which may be causeing you to under eat. I work in pizza on my feet all day and had my mfp set to lightly active then I got a bodymedia to track my burn and as I adjusted mfp to match I had to change my level to active and still burn more than that on most days.

Sweetface421 · January 2014

Thanks so much for all the advice!
I do measure my foods... I'm a baker after all

I have not been going by my TDEE, which is 1736 (little to no exercise). That's over 300 more calories than I'm taking in now!
How could I lose weight by taking in more calories than I'm burning? Isn't it calories in, calories out? If I'm maintaining at 1420 and I start eating over 300 more calories, won't I GAIN?
I'm confused.

heybales · January 2014

May be a baker, but since you said measure I want to confirm and emphasis for others, calories is based on grams of food, not volume.
You measure volume.
You weigh mass, and therefore grams, and therefore most accurate logging of calories.

And that doesn't take in to account nutrition labels and going by "about 1 serving" when it's really 1.25 by weight. Those things will add up.

Now, if you mean you have been weighing all your foods, and doing packaged items correctly by weight per serving too, then do not reduce 500 calories.

Your TDEE level is not sedentary, and neither is your MFP activity level - you are clearly Lightly Active, without exercise in either case.

If you do exercise 2-3 hrs a week, your TDEE level goes up to Moderately Active. And in MFP you would log that and eat it back.

Oh, and TDEE is what would maintain, you would eat less than your TDEE of course, which is what you are trying to do already.

If your current accurate eating level is already that far below where estimated potential would be, it likely means you've lost or never had the same muscle mass as an average gal your age, weight, height would have.
That could be the result of past diets and burning off muscle along with fat, or you've always led a sedentary life and never got much muscle, ect.
In addition to that, your body can cause you, even with active job, to slow down daily movements enough you aren't burning your potential either, even with less muscle mass.
In addition to that, you may have suppressed your metabolism up to 20% depending on how badly and long you've under eaten for your potential, body was just forced to get more efficient, so it can do the same required functions on less calories now.
Recent study saw no increase to that one after 9 months, so that may be one to live with.

So you really don't exercise at all, and eat back any calories?

If you indeed weigh all the food that goes in your mouth, and you don't exercise, and you have no medical issues like with thyroid (which wouldn't really change the end result but would explain why) - then indeed you would need to lower calories.

Because in current state - you aren't going to gain any muscle mass back, so that's not a way to increase metabolism.
You could try to eat more to increase your daily activity - and you may not have even noticed that slowing down, most don't until they eat more and feel more energetic and move more daily. Eating 200 more could cause you to burn 400 more that way.
You may or may not be able to increase metabolism, it would likely take so long might as well wait until at goal weight.

Maintenance will suck with being able to eat so little obviously, and be tough with little margin for error.

kspark658 · January 2014

*sigh* no, it's not always about calories in vs calories out. You are a person, not a mathematical equation.... and those equations are guidelines, not rules.
My personal experience is that if I eat too little (for me that's 15-1600 calories) I won't lose weight. I can be an angel, never "cheat", measure every portion etc etc... and I will not lose a thing. Moreover, I'm usually grumpy, tired and resort to emotional eating or grabbign whatever on the run..... bad news for my health.
I find that if I eat closer to 1700- 1800 calories, that's my "sweet spot", where I can eat enough to be satisfied, healthy, energetic, and yes, I lose weight.... slowly...

I guess the message is to keep at it... review the stats you put in for your diet/fitness profile. Eat at or close to the calorie goal.... don't worry about being too far under or over... just aim for near. Aim for happy, satisfied and healthy.
Good luck!

Sweetface421 · January 2014

All of your advice is really good. Thank you so much.
I'm trying to look at this month as an "experiment" to see what I need to adjust in order to get some downward movement on the scale. I'm frustrated and I want to understand what I'm doing wrong. I want to lose this weight and I don't understand why my body is hanging on to it.

In looking at my caloric intake over the past 25 days, I can see that I was eating way under my recommended MFP calorie allotment early on, for many days. But, I also ate back at least half of the exercise calories I gained. All in all, I was still eating way under my MFP number.
In those 15 days, I did not lose weight. In fact, I gained one pound. The day that I gained that pound, I decided to stop the exercise routine and just eat to my MFP number, as close as I could get to it without going over. After about four days, I lost that one pound, which put me right back to my starting weight, which has been pretty constant over the past year, without my counting calories.

It's now been 10 days since I weighed myself. I weighed myself first thing this morning, after I used the bathroom, no food, no drink: I'm still at 164.
No movement whatsoever.

I have also been taking body measurements. No change or loss in inches since December 22nd.

So, I was eating way BELOW my MFP number, but exercising a lot and eating some calories back for over two weeks.
No movement.
I then started eating TO my MFP number (trying to stay within 100 calories), no exercise other than daily activities, for 10 days.
No movement.

It seems to me that maybe my body needs a "shock" in order to lose weight, but I'm at a loss as to what to do...

bcattoes · January 2014

OP, have you measured? Any inches lost or gained. If you are the same weight and same size, then yeah, that's maintenance.

Sweetface421 · January 2014

Yes, I mentioned in my above post that I've been taking body measurements. Over the past 25 days, there has been no change, even while exercising with the Bodyrock workouts for two weeks.
Weight is the same.

What can I do to change this? Do I need to do a metabolism reset?

mccindy72 · January 2014

mccindy72 · January 2014

No, you need to eat fewer calories than you burn. You are either overestimating your calories burned, or underestimating your calories eaten, or both. Change those and you'll begin to see a loss.

heybales · January 2014

Take a diet break, massive exercise and bigger than needed deficit is a lot of stress on your body, besides you worrying about the weight loss.

Change to maintenance level eating, just do some walking, if 30-45 min don't worry about the calorie burn eating at maintenance.

Then slowly start reaching your goals with the deficit in there.

mccindy72 · January 2014

OP is obviously already at maintenance level eating, since she hasn't lost any weight.

bcattoes · January 2014

This ^^ When your calories in and calories out are the same (maintenance), then you need to change one or both of those to lose.

Sweetface421 · January 2014

Maybe I'm not understanding what you're saying. This is the issue: I HAVE been eating at maintenance level this whole time - My weight is not changing, whether I eat TO my MFP number or way below MFP number.
Should I start eating above the MFP number? Should I just stop tracking calories altogether? That doesn't work because I did it last year and I stayed the same.

mccindy72 · January 2014

that is why I said this person's post was incorrect. You need to continue tracking, but make sure you are extremely accurate in both burn and intake. MFP calculates burn too high most of the time, and heart monitors do also, especially if you are doing exercise that is not constant (constant cardio like running and elliptical are more accurate with HRM). Otherwise keep your numbers the same, and then eat fewer calories according to what you are already calculating. This will give you a deficit. Your main goal here is to determine what intake creates a deficit for you. Since you are eating at maintenance now, decrease by 200-300 calories and you'll be at a deficit.

heybales · January 2014

And here's why I'm going to suggest that chasing an already potentially suppressed metabolism in to the ground will leave you with little room for movement later, and a terrible maintenance level. What is a 2 week test after all this time anyway?

Eat 250 more daily for 2 weeks, that's all. Guess how much you should gain if you are at full potential maintenance, and you don't change your activity level?

1 lb, that's all, slowly through the 2 weeks. If you gain a bunch of water weight fast, then it wasn't maintenance, or you wouldn't have had the glucose stores to refill with attached water.

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1077746-starvation-mode-adaptive-thermogenesis-and-weight-loss

Not only the studies presented at the beginning, but several links near the end with some documentaries on studies that were turning up some great info, potentially depressing, but good to know, that matched the earlier studies the post starts out with.

The mere fact you stopped exercise and ate about the same amount with no weight change proves your body is willing to adapt how much it expends in your daily life.

The question is, has it already adapted? The max amount the studies have shown? Do you want to attempt weight loss with a max suppressed metabolism, eventually you will lose weight of course, but at what low level? Perhaps it's not max adapted, do you want to force it to that level first? Or is there no ability to lose it anymore while eating at a higher level, and down is the only direction?

As a few in this topic have already shared, and many others on MFP have found, you may be able to adapt back up again enough that you can lose while eating more than bare bones minimum.

Now maybe that 2 weeks of intense workout weren't long enough, or you didn't really push as hard as you thought, but if you were truly eating at full burning maintenance level, then you should have seen some great improvements from that exercise.
The more deficit, the less improvement, eating in surplus the best improvement from exercise.
Maintenance level should have shown some, unless the body was just so stressed out, it wasn't about to make improvements that would require even more energy to sustain, when it already wasn't getting enough for current functions.

CouleeRunner · January 2014

heybales is never wrong. I would listen to him OP, he knows what he is talking about.

darkestdayz · January 2014

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/872212-you-re-probably-eating-more-than-you-think

Read this, please~ this will definitely be an eye opener!

Sweetface421 · January 2014

Okay, I think I'm understanding this now.
I'm already eating at a "maintenance" level since my body hasn't changed in over a year (probably longer - I've been at this weight for about three years, even with other weight loss attempts; My body always goes back to THIS weight).

In looking ahead to reaching my goal weight: If I keep lowering my BMR and taking in less food in order to achieve weight loss, when I reach my goal, I'd be eating at a very low maintenence level, which would not be sustainable. This is because my body/metabolism has adapted.

So what I need to do is start eating higher than my BMR by about 250-300 calories a day for a longer period of time (two weeks or so) to get my body to adapt to a higher calorie intake IN ORDER to lower my caloric intake somewhere down the line to LOSE weight and change my body's BMR.
Is that correct?

How long would you suggest I follow this path? Three months, raising my caloric intake every two - three weeks?
Should I look at the Eat More, Weigh Less/Metabolism Reset Board for advice?

Thanks so much for the suggestions/advice. This is finally making some sense to me.

erickirb · January 2014

OP there is a 99% chance that you are eating more than you think you are if you are eating what you think is a deficit and not losing.

Do you weight all solids that you eat and measure all the liquids? If not you may be eating 10-50% more than you think you are

lmarshel · January 2014

I took a look at your food diary for the past week or so, and you log a lot of Homemade or Generic items into your food log. Are those items you entered yourself based on the recipe you use? Or did you just find those in the MFP database and use them?

Your best bet is to either enter the complete recipe you use at home based on the brands you cook with using MFPs recipe builder function and log from them. Or if you're eating something that you buy prepared, find that exact brand and log it.

For instance, I see you logged wheat bread at 70 calories. But there is no brand listed. I'm a BIG label reader, and I have seen wheat bread in the store at 50 cals a slice and as much as 120 cals a slice. Pay attention to your brands and be SPECIFIC. It makes a huge difference.

And, of course, if you made that bread at home you should be logging it from your own personal recipe.

heybales · January 2014

The 2 weeks is more of a test, depending on your genetics and ability to adapt up as fast as you may adapt down, it may not doing much for actually helping metabolism in that brief time.

But as a test, it may help you confirm a few things.

If you ate that 250 more daily for 2 weeks, and
Gained 1 lb slowly over the whole time - prior eating level was TDEE then. Why it's so low is another matter.
Gained 1 - 3 lbs fast in first days or week - prior eating level was not TDEE then. If it had been, there would have been no glucose stores to top off to cause water weight fast gain.
Gain nothing - glucose stores may be topped off, but body was willing to adapt higher and this may be TDEE, but gotta test this level now.

If 1st effect, you nailed your TDEE for whatever the level of activity was you are doing, keep doing that level and eat 250-500 less daily with whatever level of accuracy in food logging you are doing.
If 2nd or 3rd effect, you increase another 250 daily for another 2 weeks, and see what response you get.

And while doing this testing, if there is any ability for the body to adapt higher, it has chance to.

Also, your BMR can only lower so much (you may have meant TDEE as daily burn), those are the base functions for life and must be done, perhaps a tad more efficient, or a tad slower, so it lowers a tad. But the body responds to keeping enough energy for that by lowering other aspects of your daily routine.
For one thing, eating less means less energy used in processing food.
Body can slow down your spontaneous physical activity (SPA) or non-exercise activity (NEAT) so less is actually burned all day than what it did before.
Exercise intensity as measured by pace or weight on the bar can lower burning less calories there too.

So normally what you'll hear folks report when they eat at maintenance or a more reasonable deficit is they have more energy, their workouts got stronger, their skin/hair/whatever started looking better, ect.

In essence the body started burning more energy daily because they ate more. The goal is to get it to increase to the max of what it can burn, and then you take a reasonable deficit so it's willing to keep burning at higher level without adapting down.

The last potential of a diet of muscle mass loss is almost automatically improved by that same application, but more protein also helps with that, as well as resistance training, like you were trying to do.

How long depends on genetics and how stressed your body is in other ways.
Lack of sleep and that additional stress has shown to hurt weight/fat loss.
Some show when they stop eating some food types they were sensitive to they removed stress that hurt weight loss.

So you may find your TDEE for current activity right on, but discover if you take too steep a deficit your body must be adapting lower because the expected amount of loss starts decreasing, but if you raise calories to less deficit it remains what is expected.

So many times a choice - slow weight loss because you made purposeful decisions to keep it slow, or you attempted big and forced the body slow anyway.
Which leads to more aggravation and stress over the situation, which isn't good either.

Sweetface421 · January 2014

Yes, I cook at home a lot. I create a weekly menu for my family and then I enter my recipes into the recipe builder on MFP and I look at the caloric information on the items that I use in the recipe. I measure my specific portion using a scale that measures by the quarter ounce or I measure it out in measuring cups.

So far this past week I have made these recipes:
Pancetta Fried Rice (which I make with long-grain white rice and cubed pancetta - although this week I used cubed ham instead of the pancetta)
Pasta alla Bettola (I use whole grain penne pasta and make a homemade vodka cream sauce, not bottled)
Homemade Corn Dogs (using kosher beef hot dogs and a homemade buttermilk/corn meal-based batter)
Kid-Friendly Pizzas (using whole wheat Pillsbury Grands biscuits as the crust, bottled pizza sauce, mozzarella cheese & turkey pepperoni)
We ate at a friend's house last night and we ate out one afternoon at Blue Coast Burrito, where I ordered a chicken salad with rice, lettuce, black beans, pico and guacamole.
I do not eat cheese (unless it's on pizza, and then VERY light) or drink milk. I hate sour cream.

I look up the calorie info on all of the items that I eat and search the MFP database for specific brands. Sometimes, like last night, I was at a party and did not have access to the caloric information for the food that was offered, so I estimate, based on the items in MFP's database. But that's very much the exception. We mostly eat at home and, when we eat out, we eat at the same places, for the most part.
I'm not "eyeballing" unless I'm in a situation where I have no alternative.

So yes, I'm logging my food correctly. If I'm in a situation where I don't have the exact information, I over-estimate the caloric intake, jut to be on the safe side.

tigersword · January 2014

Again, are you WEIGHING your food? It doesn't look like you are actually weighing your food on a scale, based on the few days I spot checked your diary. Measuring cups don't work for non liquid ingredients.

Sweetface421 · January 2014

Thanks for this information. It is appreciated.
I deal with a lot of stress on a constant basis (abusive, manipulative X, custody issues). Plus, I'm trying to run my own business, raise children and be a good wife & partner. I did lose 30+ pounds about fifteen years ago on the Atkins diet and kept it off until I had my daughter seven years ago, at the age of 40. Sometimes I wonder if my hormones are just completely out-of-whack because of that and my age.

I am going to look at this information closely and adapt my diet to see if this is the issue I'm dealing with. I'm trying not to be anxious and just want to figure out why this happens every time. It's really the definition of insanity: I keep doing the same thing over & over again, expecting different results but always get the SAME. Time to try something different!

Sweetface421 · January 2014

Yes, I use measuring cups for food items that require measuring and weigh food items that need to weighed.
For example, I measure cooked rice or cooking oil in a measuring cup but I WEIGH a slice of turkey. Is that incorrect?

Have I been eating at "maintenance" all along?

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