Deadlifts and Overhead press

darreneatschicken

Just got home from the gym, had a long talk with the fitness trainer there (this is a community gym) regarding deadlifts and overhead press. Okay, so I've been doing stronglifts for a couple weeks now and I'm happy with my progress in squatting and deadlifting. However, I told the trainer about Stronglifts, and his response? It sucks.

Okay, not gonna worry about what he says, because he says that every program will lead to process regardless. Therefore, I'm sticking with it. However, he did say that the overhead press is a dangerous exercise, mainly because it forces your bones into a locked position, which is unnatural, and may lead to rotator cuff injuries; it is really bad for your shoulders. I don't remember his exact words, and I may be waaayyy off regarding what he said, but the main point is that some people may do the overhead press their entire lives and not have any injuries (like Mehdi - creator of Stronglifts), but for others it isn't the same. He says that I should replace the overhead press with dumbbell shoulder press (standing shoulder press, not seated I'm assuming, else it wouldn't be a compound exercise)? He says that overhead press is not superior to dumbbell shoulder press in any way, and that is a fact.

Next topic: deadlifts. He watched me deadlift (put 45 lbs on each side) and I deadlifted from the floor, making sure to rest the barbell on the floor after each rep. He said that I shouldn't do that. He said that I should keep the barbell in the air, as it keeps the tension in my legs. If I put the weight down, he said that my body gets a second rest, and when I lift up again, I am actually putting stress on the tendons in my leg. This may lead to torn tendons. Again, don't believe me 100% in my rephrasing, I may be way off. But overall, the main message is that I shouldn't rest the bar on the floor after each rep; I should only be lifting from the floor on my first rep. I then asked why I see so many people lifting it from the floor. He said that it is because people watch too many weight lifting competitions, and in those competitions, a full rep is one that starts from the floor, and ends on the floor. However, this is not the right way to do it, and people shouldn't lift like they are in a competition.

All in all, I really trust this guy. He seems like he knows what he's talking about. He was actually my personal trainer for 10 sessions back in the summer. He has a bachelors in kinseology, and so he seems reliable. I know most of you guys don't have degrees in kinseology, but I still want to hear your guys' opinions. Also, if you do have degrees in fitness, or if you are a personal trainer yourself, your opinion is greatly valued. Please let me know!

In conclusion: should I replace overhead press with standing dumbbell shoulder press & should I stop resting the barbell on the floor after each rep while doing deadlifts?

j6o4

Seated dumbell shoulder press all the way! But thats just me, if standing overhead press works best for you then do it.

darreneatschicken

I also like seated dumbbell shoulder press more because I find that when I do a standing overhead press, there is a lot of stress on my lower back. But maybe that's just because I'm doing it with a weight that's too heavy? And does standing overhead press work more body parts than a seated shoulder press (because your standing)?

jimmmer

I'm not some big city trainer with a fancy degree....

that being said.

a) DEADlift. The clue's in the name - it's supposed to be pulled from the floor. From a DEAD stop. Sure you can touch-and-go deads if your form is great or the weight's sub-maximal. Sure you can do an assistance exercise like SLDL or RDL. But actually, honest-to-goodness deads at a significant percentage of your RM should be pulled from a dead stop. Sounds like he wants you to do something like a RDL where you'll get stronger with a less maximal load - it's possible if that's what you want. But then you won't be doing stronglifts which calls for DEADlifts.

b) OHP is a great exercise if your form is great. It's actually a great way to maintain healthy shoulders, but then you've got to do it properly. There's nothing wrong with pressing with dumbbells/kettlebells/logs/sandbags either, FYI. Most weight bearing exercise is fine as long as your form is great and you don't have any pre-existing condition that it flares up.

c) Stronglifts sucks? It's just a basic 5x5 template used by really strong people since the 50's without issues. If this trainer knows anything, he'll know that. By extension he thinks SS, ICF 5x5, Greyskull LP, Reg Park 5x5, Bill Starr's various 5x5's, Madcow's 5x5 all suck too?

j6o4

I also like seated dumbbell shoulder press more because I find that when I do a standing overhead press, there is a lot of stress on my lower back. But maybe that's just because I'm doing it with a weight that's too heavy? And does standing overhead press work more body parts than a seated shoulder press (because your standing)?

Yea, standing press works out more body parts, but I guess it's just all depends on your goals. Your lower back shouldn't be hurting, unless your using too much weight or you have incorrect form. For the deadlifting, it depends on your goals and what you want to get from deadlifting. There's differnt variations of deadlifting, incase if one variation doesn't suit the persons goal.

GiGiBeans

Thought this was an interesting read on stop& go versus resetting for deads
http://www.allthingsgym.com/things-i-think-i-know-all-deadlifts-should-be-touch-go-2/

I do S&G and db ohp because I'm old and broken already.

DavPul

He's mostly right about the OHP and mostly wrong about the deadlifts

darreneatschicken

So I think I'm going to stop overhead pressing, and instead replace it with standing dumbbell shoulder press. Does anyone have any tips for the standing shoulder press? How do I make it so that my lower back isn't stressed? Do I just lower the weight? Tighten my back?

Also, if I replace the OHD with standing overhead press, will I be at a disadvantage? My personal trainer says no, but I want to hear what you guys think.

I'm still really confused about the deadlifts though. I don't know if I should change how I'm doing it (resting it on the ground after each rep).

After some research, I've identified all the deadlift forms:

Conventional: what I'm doing right now - resting the bar on the ground after each rep

Romanian: the same as what I'm doing right now, except, that I don't rest the bar on the ground after each rep; the bar should only go down to about mid-shin

Stiff-legged: your kness stay straight the entire time - seems like more of a stretch than an actual weight lifting exercise - there's no point for me to do this

So... this leaves the conventional deadlift and the romanian deadlift. Which one is better? My personal trainer seems to say that the romanian deadlift is better.

DavPul

Are you having any issues? If you've been doing these this way for months and there aren't any problems I wouldn't be rushing to stop doing them. I'd just file this information to remember down the line if an issue surfaces. No reason to panic just yet

Shawshankcan

Just because someone is educated, it doesn't mean you should listen to them.
Ohp is fine with a barbell.
Deadlifts breaking from the floor are a great exercise.

darreneatschicken

Just because someone is educated, it doesn't mean you should listen to them.
Ohp is fine with a barbell.
Deadlifts breaking from the floor are a great exercise.

I listened to him is because yes, he is educated, else what would be the point of being educated. For example, if you take a person with an English degree, and you take a person who reads about literature on the internet all the time and reads and writes books, novels, poems, etc. all the time, who do you think knows more about English? The person with the English degree. After all, how can you trust stuff you read on the internet, and how do you know if your writing and reading is good?

Also, the personal trainer gave reasons for his opinion.

You say OHP is fine, but WHY is it fine? What make it superior to standing overhead press?

You say deadlifts breaking from the floor is a great exercise, but WHY is it a great exercise? What makes it better than the RDL?

darreneatschicken

Are you having any issues? If you've been doing these this way for months and there aren't any problems I wouldn't be rushing to stop doing them. I'd just file this information to remember down the line if an issue surfaces. No reason to panic just yet

No, no issues yet, but I've only been doing stronglifts for 2 weeks. It's just that if I can prevent a problem before it happens, that would be preferred.

darreneatschicken

You guys keep telling me that a conventional deadlift is superior to a RDL, but you fail to tell me WHY that is. What is the kinseiology behind this theory?

fitspo145

In to read responses about the OHP. I really feel it in my lower back so it's probably due to form but if there really is no 'advantage' over the dumbbell press I'll probably just substitute with that.

lwoodroff

the chapter on the press in 'starting strength' by Mark Rippetoe is very helpful, and I think more technical and detailed in the body mechanics. I'd trust that more than your trainer!

Hendrix7

You guys keep telling me that a conventional deadlift is superior to a RDL, but you fail to tell me WHY that is. What is the kinseiology behind this theory?

It's pretty simple - If you always pull with touch and go reps/ or not letting the bar rest on the floor between reps you won't develop as much strength off the floor....which if you are training to improve your deadlift strength is going to be a problem.

I don't like saying ___ exercise is better than ___ exercise because it depends on what you are trying to achieve. Most of the time the answer is to do both of the things you are arguing about.

In order to improve the conventional deadlift, you must spend a reasonable amount of time training the deadlift - from a dead stop.

If you perform deadlift variations only to train the hamstrings and lower back, you could make a case that the RDL would a better choice.

(standing shoulder press, not seated I'm assuming, else it wouldn't be a compound exercise)

seated or standing it's still a compound exercise.

usually people who have issues with the barbell overhead press are people who either don't warm up property and take care of their rotator cuffs, have a pre-existing shoulder issue or have poor shoulder mobility which puts them in a poor position to press...I would rather address those issues than just switching to a dumbell press and carrying on like everything is fine.

Does anyone have any tips for the standing shoulder press? How do I make it so that my lower back isn't stressed? Do I just lower the weight? Tighten my back?

squeeze your glutes really hard during the whole movement, this was the best tip anyone ever gave me for overhead press. I still don't really understand why it makes so much difference...but it does.

again, if you have poor shoulder mobility you will try to lean back to get the bar overhead, can you get a broomstick overhead while remaining completely upright? if not you need to work on that before using anything heavier.

http://www.ericcressey.com/train-overhead

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/most_recent/are_you_ready_to_overhead_press

Shawshankcan

Just because someone is educated, it doesn't mean you should listen to them.
Ohp is fine with a barbell.
Deadlifts breaking from the floor are a great exercise.

I listened to him is because yes, he is educated, else what would be the point of being educated. For example, if you take a person with an English degree, and you take a person who reads about literature on the internet all the time and reads and writes books, novels, poems, etc. all the time, who do you think knows more about English? The person with the English degree. After all, how can you trust stuff you read on the internet, and how do you know if your writing and reading is good?

Also, the personal trainer gave reasons for his opinion.

You say OHP is fine, but WHY is it fine? What make it superior to standing overhead press?

You say deadlifts breaking from the floor is a great exercise, but WHY is it a great exercise? What makes it better than the RDL?

Just because someone has a degree, doesn't mean they actually understand what they are talking about. On a side note, I knew a number of people with English degrees, doesn't mean I would trust them in that regards. There are many oaths to get a degree, some have more weight than others.

That being said, somewhere years ago, someone got the notion that overhead pressing was bad for shoulders. It is simply not the case unless you have a lack of mobility or other issues with your shoulder(s). If you have an issue, you need to take care of that instead. With that being said, you are comfortable with dumbbells instead, go for it. I suggest doing it standing though. One thin I did wrong for years was doing all my pressing seated. Now I have to do it standing and it took me a number of months to get my core strong enough for it.

Deadlifts has already been mentioned.

Chadomaniac

Barbell OHP will result in more stability .

For DL . I personally pause at the when the bar hits the ground so I can adjust my form and put less pressure on my lower back . Better than jerking straight up imo



Do what makes u feel comfortable . All the other bs wont change the size of your muscles .

Use the correct form at a reasonable weight and you will make solid progress

darreneatschicken

Just because someone is educated, it doesn't mean you should listen to them.
Ohp is fine with a barbell.
Deadlifts breaking from the floor are a great exercise.

I listened to him is because yes, he is educated, else what would be the point of being educated. For example, if you take a person with an English degree, and you take a person who reads about literature on the internet all the time and reads and writes books, novels, poems, etc. all the time, who do you think knows more about English? The person with the English degree. After all, how can you trust stuff you read on the internet, and how do you know if your writing and reading is good?

Also, the personal trainer gave reasons for his opinion.

You say OHP is fine, but WHY is it fine? What make it superior to standing overhead press?

You say deadlifts breaking from the floor is a great exercise, but WHY is it a great exercise? What makes it better than the RDL?

Just because someone has a degree, doesn't mean they actually understand what they are talking about. On a side note, I knew a number of people with English degrees, doesn't mean I would trust them in that regards. There are many oaths to get a degree, some have more weight than others.

That being said, somewhere years ago, someone got the notion that overhead pressing was bad for shoulders. It is simply not the case unless you have a lack of mobility or other issues with your shoulder(s). If you have an issue, you need to take care of that instead. With that being said, you are comfortable with dumbbells instead, go for it. I suggest doing it standing though. One thin I did wrong for years was doing all my pressing seated. Now I have to do it standing and it took me a number of months to get my core strong enough for it.

Deadlifts has already been mentioned.

This guy knows what he's talking about though. He told me the kinseology aspect of his reasoning. Even offered to draw me a picture. So does conventional dead-lifting tear your tendons? Judging from your guys' responses, I'm guessing it doesn't, but can someone tell me why it doesn't?

darreneatschicken

Barbell OHP will result in more stability .

For DL . I personally pause at the when the bar hits the ground so I can adjust my form and put less pressure on my lower back . Better than jerking straight up imo



Do what makes u feel comfortable . All the other bs wont change the size of your muscles .

Use the correct form at a reasonable weight and you will make solid progress

What do you mean by when you say "all the other bs"