Advanced calorie deficits (Fair Warning - long post)

AliceDark

Brilliant post.

Starvation mode IS, in it's simplest form, your body's metabolic processes recognizing, over the course of days or more likely weeks, that it's receiving far fewer calories than it needs. This triggers two major functions. First, when in starvation mode the body will reduce energy consumption wherever it can, starting with the least important (in it's opinion) functions first. Second the body will use any extra calories it can find and store them as fat.

It took me months and a nutritionist with the patience of a saint before I believed this was even possible, and it was an enormous struggle to get me out of the "calories in vs. calories out" midset, even though constantly reducing calories over a period of a few years was not making me lose weight and was making me sick. "Calories in vs. calories out" is probably the right answer for the majority of people trying to lose weight, but it's irresponsible to say that it's the one and only factor in play.

jofjltncb6

In...for later.

DymonNdaRgh40

Nice review.

Add that the adaptive thermogenesis is usually not in reference to the expected known effects of too big a deficit, like potential muscle mass loss resulting in lower TDEE, and eating less means less TEF resulting in lower TDEE, or weighing less means you burn less moving around resulting in lower TDEE.

But the effect also mentioned above about body slowing down spontaneous or non-exercise activity, possibly big lowering of TDEE.
And just the plain effect of body getting more efficient with BMR, TEF, and TDEE, causing a lowering.
It's that last one the studies haven't shown clear evidence of how long it takes to recover from, meaning metabolism and TDEE are back up at expected level based on LBM and what you could have been if not in extreme deficit.
That's where the slipping in to maintenance can be so bad. Some grind right in to it with little weight loss the final few weeks, showing just how little their maintenance is going to be now.

Not sure how the logic works that if no loss for 3-4 weeks, and someone just decides the last 2 lbs isn't needed to be lost, how they think they can now eat 500 more daily just because MFP says maintenance is that high.

Totally agree!

This is where I'm at. I'm still trying to lose those last few pounds as I haven't lost since October so I know I'm floating around maintenance. I'm still tweaking every little thing and trying to be patient but it's very frustrating.

I'm starting to think I may need to give my body a break from being in calorie deficit mode.

duffypratt

"Yes, initial weight loss in Ketogenesis is fast, but that's mostly because of the loss of up to 15 lbs of water, which is usually immediately replaced when
carbohydrates are returned to the body in any substantial and sustained amount. "

You have to be kidding me. That is 7 kg of water. When I did a ketosis based diet my weight fluctuated by 1-2 kg max!

note the "up to". How much will depend on how much lean mass you have along with a host of other conditions, smaller people will fluctuate less.

This is entirely true. I have lost 15lbs on a single long (85 mile) bicycle ride, and have regularly lost 8-10lbs during a 90 minute yoga class. Needless to say, this loss was almost entirely sweat.

One of the benefits of starting a low carb diet, for people with high blood pressure, is that it has an almost immediate diuretic effect which will tend to drop elevated blood pressure significantly in a very, very short time.

One thing I would add to this excellent post is that we are mainly interested in losing adipose fat, and we use the measurement of weight as a substitute. Your weight can fluctuate in the short term for other reasons, and so frequent scale readings tend to include a lot of noise along with the signal (fat loss) that we are trying to read.

dare2love81

So...to take this a step further....what, in your opinion, are symptoms or warning signs of starvation mode? How can one recognize they are in starvation mode?

ETA: Not trying to be snarky, just thought it was a good question to add to the discussion. I should also add that I have no idea what the answers to those questions are.

LoggingForLife

Thank you for this. My question is, why does the body give signals to eat, hunger pangs, when it already has stored energy that it could use first?

Fullsterkur_woman

Thank you for this. My question is, why does the body give signals to eat, hunger pangs, when it already has stored energy that it could use first?

Because, as he explained, it's costly to get at that stuff, plus, your body wants to hold onto that for when food cannot be obtained (during times of actual famine).

Think of it like this: Why would you keep going to work if you have emergency savings in the bank? Because you want to avoid dipping into that savings unless it becomes absolutely necessary.

waytobeduck

I am too sleep deprived to digest this... Bump.

LoggingForLife

Thank you for this. My question is, why does the body give signals to eat, hunger pangs, when it already has stored energy that it could use first?

Because, as he explained, it's costly to get at that stuff, plus, your body wants to hold onto that for when food cannot be obtained (during times of actual famine).

Think of it like this: Why would you keep going to work if you have emergency savings in the bank? Because you want to avoid dipping into that savings unless it becomes absolutely necessary.

Ahhh. Thank you.

eazy_

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ChrisM8971

bumping for later

Kenazwa

Appreciate the post. Thanks.

SHBoss1673

So...to take this a step further....what, in your opinion, are symptoms or warning signs of starvation mode? How can one recognize they are in starvation mode?

ETA: Not trying to be snarky, just thought it was a good question to add to the discussion. I should also add that I have no idea what the answers to those questions are.

no, no, it's a good question. And a difficult one to answer definitively. When taken to the extreme, starvation mode is relatively easy to spot. Near to complete cessation of weight loss, listless hair, skin becomes dull and sometimes you loose color. Most likely your athletic skills and maximums will drop significantly over the course of a month or so, with little or no reduction in exercise profile that would normally accompany this. More muscle fatigue and quicker muscle fatigue. Loss of appetite (I know this is counter-intuitive but the body shuts down leptin and ghrelin after a prolonged period of semi-starvation, thus removing the feelings of hunger).

Unfortunately, all of these symptoms are only easy to spot when you are really deep in the throws of a giant calorie deficit for multiple weeks or more, initially you may feel a little lethargic, but generally people gradually decrease their calories as the weight loss slows, so most people never even notice their reduction in energy levels. The one real easy way to identify starvation mode is the diminished weight loss. Sadly, starvation mode isn't the only reason for this symptom though, thus you can't just see someone as not being able to lose weight and immediately attribute it to starvation mode.

SHBoss1673

Thank you for this. My question is, why does the body give signals to eat, hunger pangs, when it already has stored energy that it could use first?

Because, as he explained, it's costly to get at that stuff, plus, your body wants to hold onto that for when food cannot be obtained (during times of actual famine).

Think of it like this: Why would you keep going to work if you have emergency savings in the bank? Because you want to avoid dipping into that savings unless it becomes absolutely necessary.

100 % correct, and it's an analogy I've used in the past. Although hunger and feelings of hunger come from a different mechanism. If you want to learn more on that look up ghrelin and leptin. Incidentally this becomes another symptom of starvation mode, the cessation of hunger feelings even when you aren't eating enough.

marciebrian

saving for read later

dmt4641

So what is your suggestion to figure out your TDEE and correct deficit without going into starvation mode? I don't have much to lose and my weight is back to its "happy place" where it likes to stay unless I really watch what I eat. The scale has been hovering around the same weight for a few weeks but I am scared to lower my deficit any more (I'm doing TDEE minus 15% and weight training plus cardio). But I really don't want to end up where I have to eat 1800 instead of 2100 to maintain after this is done because I have lowered my TDEE with dieting.

stanleypoobrick

"Yes, initial weight loss in Ketogenesis is fast, but that's mostly because of the loss of up to 15 lbs of water, which is usually immediately replaced when
carbohydrates are returned to the body in any substantial and sustained amount. "

You have to be kidding me. That is 7 kg of water. When I did a ketosis based diet my weight fluctuated by 1-2 kg max!

Every single cell in your body is 70% water; you can lose a ridiculous amount of weight by dehydrating yourself. That's how MMA fighters can lose 15lbs in the lead-up to a fight to make a lower weight class and then put it straight back on in the week before the actual fight.

BigGuy47

tagged to read again

SHBoss1673

So what is your suggestion to figure out your TDEE and correct deficit without going into starvation mode? I don't have much to lose and my weight is back to its "happy place" where it likes to stay unless I really watch what I eat. The scale has been hovering around the same weight for a few weeks but I am scared to lower my deficit any more (I'm doing TDEE minus 15% and weight training plus cardio). But I really don't want to end up where I have to eat 1800 instead of 2100 to maintain after this is done because I have lowered my TDEE with dieting.

It's fine to work off a website calculation as a starting point. Bare in mind that this method will take a long time to get right unless you are really lucky and hit spot on on the first try. After you put in your data points it spits out a TDEE which should get you close. At that point, if you really want to be thorough, you must have your lean mass tested, using something relatively accurate like a Bod Pod, eat your TDEE + exercise calories <-- yet another variable that may or may not be accurate, if your weight doesn't change over about a 3 or 4 week period (within about a 4 or 5 lb margin for error for woman or a 5 to 8 lb margin for error for men), go back to the bod pod and retest, if you're about the same lean mass as you were before, then you know that the TDEE you caculated should be close to correct (probably within 100 calories of dead on I'd say) You have to keep doing this even as you create a calorie deficit, if at any point in time you stop losing weight while in a deficit, or if you are still losing weight but not losing fat, then you're probably not at the correct calorie level.

But none of the above is possible without a solid baseline TDEE, so if your first results are not equal, you must tweak and retry. If you want you can do this with a Bio-electrical impedance scale (a body fat scale), but you'll have more fluctuation this way, and you must be extremely careful to use it at the same time of day, having eaten the same amount, having drank the same amount, and having repeated your bathroom schedule perfectly, or else it won't be very accurate.

Difficult? Yes. Time consuming? Most definitely. Worth it? I think so.

Paco4gsc

- Whether you want to believe it or not, starvation mode is real
Many people may have the wrong idea of what starvation mode is, but that doesn't make it false, it makes their concept of it false. It's up to us as intelligent human beings to combat misinformation where ever we can. That means when someone spouts something wrong or silly about starvation mode. Speak up. But do it respectfully, and provide not just a response, but proof. There's plenty out there I can give you tons of studies if you need them. But just talking about the metabolic processes surrounding this state should be enough( no studies needed, these are facts about the body, not up for debate). What starvation mode isn't: it has nothing to do with 1200 calories, it doesn't happen after 1 day of not eating, and it is NOT starvation (two completely separate terms), starvation is a state, starvation mode is a process. Yes someone in prolonged, deep starvation mode can eventually starve, but except in the case of complete absence of food, starvation istself is extremely rare and someone giving you case studies on starvation to prove points on starvation mode are only showing their scientific ignorance.
Starvation mode IS, in it's simplest form, your body's metabolic processes recognizing, over the course of days or more likely weeks, that it's receiving far fewer calories than it needs. This triggers two major functions. First, when in starvation mode the body will reduce energy consumption wherever it can, starting with the least important (in it's opinion) functions first. Second the body will use any extra calories it can find and store them as fat. So when someone says starvation mode is a myth, please try to explain that it's not a myth, it's just difficult to prove, and you can't just blithely say someone's in that state without some serious analysis.

This needs to be immediately copy and pasted as a reply to any time someone spouts nonsensical gibberish for/against starvation mode.