Ketosis
KimSchnizleinWECHANGED
Posts: 189
I just read a forum topic where a guy was talking about how to get into Ketosis! He said his wife was already there, and he couldn't figure out what he was doing wrong .... And after doing a forum search based on 'Ketosis" ... He's not the only one!! Do you people not understand that throwing your body into ketosis is a very bad and dangerous idea?! I could summarize all the info, but just read below .... And this is just ONE source!! I understand why someone might want to attain ketosis to burn energy from stored fat; however, the damage this can cause to vital organs is no laughing matter ... Not worth the loss of a few pounds!
Ketosis is a process in which your body converts fats into energy. During the conversion, ketones are produced as a by-product. Ketones can give your breath a sweet, fruity smell that may be mistaken for alcohol.
Your body normally uses glucose to meet its energy needs. Glucose comes from the carbohydrate in your diet. A healthy, balanced diet should provide you with all the glucose your body needs, so that ketosis does not take place. However, if your body does not have enough glucose, perhaps because your diet is very low in carbohydrates or you are starving yourself, it will begin ketosis to obtain energy from its stored fats instead. As a result of this, the ketone levels in your blood will rise. Prolonged severe ketosis can be dangerous as it can change the acidity of your blood, which may eventually lead to serious damage to your liver and kidneys.
Recently, diets that recommend you eat lots of protein and very little carbohydrate have become popular. These high protein-low carbohydrate diets - known as ketogenic diets - are intended to work by forcing your body to begin ketosis to burn fats and create quick weight loss. Because long periods of ketosis can be dangerous to your kidneys and liver, ketogenic diets are never recommended by health professionals for more than short-term use, typically no longer than 14 days. Many nutritionists warn their patients - especially women in the early stages of pregnancy - against following them at all.
Ketosis is a process in which your body converts fats into energy. During the conversion, ketones are produced as a by-product. Ketones can give your breath a sweet, fruity smell that may be mistaken for alcohol.
Your body normally uses glucose to meet its energy needs. Glucose comes from the carbohydrate in your diet. A healthy, balanced diet should provide you with all the glucose your body needs, so that ketosis does not take place. However, if your body does not have enough glucose, perhaps because your diet is very low in carbohydrates or you are starving yourself, it will begin ketosis to obtain energy from its stored fats instead. As a result of this, the ketone levels in your blood will rise. Prolonged severe ketosis can be dangerous as it can change the acidity of your blood, which may eventually lead to serious damage to your liver and kidneys.
Recently, diets that recommend you eat lots of protein and very little carbohydrate have become popular. These high protein-low carbohydrate diets - known as ketogenic diets - are intended to work by forcing your body to begin ketosis to burn fats and create quick weight loss. Because long periods of ketosis can be dangerous to your kidneys and liver, ketogenic diets are never recommended by health professionals for more than short-term use, typically no longer than 14 days. Many nutritionists warn their patients - especially women in the early stages of pregnancy - against following them at all.
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There's a lot of websites that actively promote very low calorie diets that cause ketosis, with no mention at all of the long term health risks. Any VLCD should only ever be undertaken under medical supervision and it's for short term use only, usually to reduce the weight rapidly for surgery. Yet these people seem to see it as a way of life which is worrying.0
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So.... do you believe everything you read on the internet? :laugh:
People have been pushing the dangers of high protein/low carb diets since the 70s when Atkins first came out, but they haven't been able to back up their claims with well-controlled clinical studies.
You don't have to be on a VLCD to go into ketosis and you can be on a VLCD and never go into ketosis. It's not the number of calories that causes ketosis, it's going low carb.There's a lot of websites that actively promote very low calorie diets that cause ketosis, with no mention at all of the long term health risks.0 -
The low/no carb brigade drive me nuts!! If we didnt NEED carbs, why would they exist? Granted that we eat too many of the damn things! :laugh: But too little is equally as bad for your body.
It's plain to me that if you have to 'force' your body into ketosis by 'starving' it of a macronutrient, then ketosis is a survival mechanism rather than a weight loss tool!! To survive, your body will use any tissue available to survive!! All rescources will be called up before your body dies.
You will lose weight, sure, that's why people buy into it. But you can't 'see' the damage.
Good for you for pointing this out Kim. I'm sure that the ketosis fans won't take any notice, but what more can you do :flowerforyou:0 -
Great post Kim! :flowerforyou:0
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The Real Skinny on Ketosis:
If you are familiar with the word ketosis, you have probably done some research into low-carb diets. Ketosis occurs when the body receives insufficient glucose during a fast or a low-carb diet. When glucose is not present, fat breakdown is incomplete and results in by-products known as ketone bodies. Your body is breaking down fat—but it is also breaking down muscle and other vital organs (this is, needless to say, a bad thing). Some of the undesirable side effects of ketosis include nausea, fatigue, bad breath, and dizziness, and even worse, abnormal heart rhythms, calcium depletion, and liver and kidney problems.
Many people don’t know about these side effects and believe that ketosis is a fantastic way to lose body fat. In the mid-1990s, during the height of Christine’s fitness modeling days, she says she was one of those people. She even remembers buying “ketone strips” from the drugstore. These were white strips of treated paper you urinated on; if they changed color, that meant you had achieved ketosis. By the third day of limiting carbs in order to achieve this state, she would be half out of her mind, irrational, short-tempered, tired, and confused. Worst of all, she had no idea she was actually slowing her metabolism and breaking down her muscle tissue. The Skinny Chicks program is a much better way to lose fat!
~from Skinny Chicks don't eat Salad by Christine Avanti
Yes, your body needs carbs....sorry MacMadame, but it's true....The trick is to eat complex carbs, simple sugars. And while you will lose weight with a low carb diet, you are also damaging your organs including your heart, which is being broken down for energy.....0 -
That is bad bad stuff! I ended up in the hospital while I was pregnant with my 1st and had horrible horrible "all day" sickness. I was dehydrated and hadn't been able to eat for almost a week. My ob refused! to let me leave until I quit spilling ketones. It took 36 hours of continous fluids and nutrients to get me there. My OB told me that as long as I was spilling ketones that my body would take what it needed from any place it could get it, including my baby. If you are willing to do the work it takes to starve your body of a vital nutrient you are also capable of eating a healty balanced diet with better end results! And as for Dr. Atkins don't forget the man DIED of a HEART ATTACK! That would be enough to convince me that maybe just maybe he wasn't 100% accurate!0
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first, guys, I'm neither for nor against a ketogenic diet as long as it's done for the right reasons (NOT as a fat burning diet, it's no better than any other), and done the right way watching very closely for the warning signs of issues.
that said, a few notes about this topic. First, Dr. Atkins did NOT die of a heart attack, that's a myth, he slipped on ice and smashed his head open and died of a brain hemorrhage (lovely thought). Second, while those symptoms listed above are POSSIBLE outcomes of the side effects of ketosis, most of them are symptoms of severe dehydration, which is bad, no doubt, but manageable if you monitor it closely. Third, there's no study that I've ever found to confirm that ketosis is bad for your liver or kidneys. In fact, most experts state that while it does put a higher strain on those organs, if your organs are otherwise healthy ketosis should not cause you any harm. If there is a study done that I'm unaware of, please post a link, I really would like to read it, as I said, I'm neither for or against, but love the facts of any situation.
do I think ketosis is a solid plan for weight loss, nope, in fact there ARE many studies that test the long term results of ketosis vs other types of weight loss strategies, and most (including reduced calorie, Atkins, south beach, and the Mediterranean diet) are all about the same with regards to weight loss, of course other markers for good health are a different story (like cholesterol and such, the Med diet was way better than all the others for that).
But I do believe ketogenic diets have their place. I.E. they are very good for people with seizures (epilepsy), they are great for people with certain thyroid conditions, and for people with food allergies. So Please, lets straddle the fence a bit guys, give the people the benefit of the doubt, and don't jump to conclusions.0 -
The trick is to eat complex carbs, simple sugars.
That would be...eat complex carbs instead of simple sugars....at least limit the simple sugars0 -
So.... do you believe everything you read on the internet? :laugh:
People have been pushing the dangers of high protein/low carb diets since the 70s when Atkins first came out, but they haven't been able to back up their claims with well-controlled clinical studies.
You don't have to be on a VLCD to go into ketosis and you can be on a VLCD and never go into ketosis. It's not the number of calories that causes ketosis, it's going low carb.There's a lot of websites that actively promote very low calorie diets that cause ketosis, with no mention at all of the long term health risks.
What I do know is that ketosis is dangerous. It can do major damage to liver and kidneys. Do I believe everything I read on the internet .... Not hardly, but I know how to respect the body God gave me, and not laugh at other's opinions or posts. I also know that there are studies that do back up the dangers of taking a low carb diet too far. Atkins didn't write a diet that will drive your body into ketosis, but people get there all the time by abusing the diet. The statement about unethical websites is true ... Simple as that.0 -
The low/no carb brigade drive me nuts!! If we didnt NEED carbs, why would they exist? Granted that we eat too many of the damn things! :laugh: But too little is equally as bad for your body.
It's plain to me that if you have to 'force' your body into ketosis by 'starving' it of a macronutrient, then ketosis is a survival mechanism rather than a weight loss tool!! To survive, your body will use any tissue available to survive!! All rescources will be called up before your body dies.
You will lose weight, sure, that's why people buy into it. But you can't 'see' the damage.
Good for you for pointing this out Kim. I'm sure that the ketosis fans won't take any notice, but what more can you do :flowerforyou:
Thanks! It's so good to know that intelligent people are out there! I have nothing against low carb diets ... I did Atkins for a yr. The biggest problem with them is that the weight loss rarely is permanent. Besides, if the naysayers were actually reading what I posted they would see that the biggest issue lie with the people not the diets themselves! They would also have picked up on the fact that throwing the body into starvation mode by consuming too few cals is the major cause of ketosis ... Not low carb diets that are followed as their creators intended. Thanks for the pat on the back ... And the flower!:bigsmile:0 -
The Real Skinny on Ketosis:
If you are familiar with the word ketosis, you have probably done some research into low-carb diets. Ketosis occurs when the body receives insufficient glucose during a fast or a low-carb diet. When glucose is not present, fat breakdown is incomplete and results in by-products known as ketone bodies. Your body is breaking down fat—but it is also breaking down muscle and other vital organs (this is, needless to say, a bad thing). Some of the undesirable side effects of ketosis include nausea, fatigue, bad breath, and dizziness, and even worse, abnormal heart rhythms, calcium depletion, and liver and kidney problems.
Many people don’t know about these side effects and believe that ketosis is a fantastic way to lose body fat. In the mid-1990s, during the height of Christine’s fitness modeling days, she says she was one of those people. She even remembers buying “ketone strips” from the drugstore. These were white strips of treated paper you urinated on; if they changed color, that meant
you had achieved ketosis. By the third day of limiting carbs in order to achieve this state, she would be half out of her mind, irrational, short-tempered, tired, and confused. Worst of all, she had no idea she was actually slowing her metabolism and breaking down her muscle tissue. The Skinny Chicks program is a much better way to lose fat!
~from Skinny Chicks don't eat Salad by Christine Avanti
Yes, your body needs carbs....sorry MacMadame, but it's true....The trick is to eat complex carbs, simple sugars. And while you will lose weight with a low carb diet, you are also damaging your organs including your heart, which is being broken down for energy.....
Great post!! You're right!0 -
first, guys, I'm neither for nor against a ketogenic diet as long as it's done for the right reasons (NOT as a fat burning diet, it's no better than any other), and done the right way watching very closely for the warning signs of issues.
that said, a few notes about this topic. First, Dr. Atkins did NOT die of a heart attack, that's a myth, he slipped on ice and smashed his head open and died of a brain hemorrhage (lovely thought). Second, while those symptoms listed above are POSSIBLE outcomes of the side effects of ketosis, most of them are symptoms of severe dehydration, which is bad, no doubt, but manageable if you monitor it closely. Third, there's no study that I've ever found to confirm that ketosis is bad for your liver or kidneys. In fact, most experts state that while it does put a higher strain on those organs, if your organs are otherwise healthy ketosis should not cause you any harm. If there is a study done that I'm unaware of, please post a link, I really would like to read it, as I said, I'm neither for or against, but love the facts of any situation.
do I think ketosis is a solid plan for weight loss, nope, in fact there ARE many studies that test the long term results of ketosis vs other types of weight loss strategies, and most (including reduced calorie, Atkins, south beach, and the Mediterranean diet) are all about the same with regards to weight loss, of course other markers for good health are a different story (like cholesterol and such, the Med diet was way better than all the others for that).
But I do believe ketogenic diets have their place. I.E. they are very good for people with seizures (epilepsy), they are great for people with certain thyroid conditions, and for people with food allergies. So Please, lets straddle the fence a bit guys, give the people the benefit of the doubt, and don't jump to conclusions.
You're wrong about the kidney and liver damage possibilities. They definitely exist, and there are studies that have been done, as well as, people admitted to hospitals because of said damage related to ketosis ... I've cared for them myself. The only thyroid condition that might benefit from a diet that is ketogenic in nature would be someone with hyperthyroid, and those people should be closely followed and supervised by a Dr. I'm sorry that you feel that medical research is a jump to conclusions. My only point here was to point out that people that purposely starve themselves (as the posts I was referring to blatantly stated), are taking chances. Severe dehydration is not a cause of ketosis .... Actually throwing the body into starvation mode and screwing up your metabolism, and then staying there for a long period of time is the main cause of ketosis.0 -
Well, i dont believe in diets at all.... they only work while you are on them!!! I believe in a life style change, eating the foods i like in proper proportions.... anything else is just redunnkulious!!! Can you really live that way for life???? I guess its ok to diet (its just not for me), but once you lose the weight you really have to change your way of looking at food (life style change)! I would rather lose weight the slow and healthy way (1-2lbs a week), and keep it off enjoying the foods i love!!! As far as Ketosis goes, i dont believe that is healthy or unhealthy its just another way some diet and unless you plan to follow it for life you will gain some of the weight back if not all of it plus some!!!
Researchers at UCLA in 2007 concluded that "Diets Are Not the Answer", in a report about effective obesity treatments. They found that:
■"Studies show that one third to two thirds of dieters regain more weight than they lost on their diets."
■"There is little support for the notion that diets lead to lasting weight loss or health benefits."
The UCLA researchers concluded:
It appears that dieters who manage to sustain a weight loss are the rare exception, rather than the rule. Dieters who gain back more weight than they lost may very well be the norm, rather than an unlucky minority
http://www.diet-blog.com/08/do_diets_work.php0 -
You're wrong about the kidney and liver damage possibilities. They definitely exist, and there are studies that have been done, as well as, people admitted to hospitals because of said damage related to ketosis ... I've cared for them myself. The only thyroid condition that might benefit from a diet that is ketogenic in nature would be someone with hyperthyroid, and those people should be closely followed and supervised by a Dr. I'm sorry that you feel that medical research is a jump to conclusions. My only point here was to point out that people that purposely starve themselves (as the posts I was referring to blatantly stated), are taking chances. Severe dehydration is not a cause of ketosis .... Actually throwing the body into starvation mode and screwing up your metabolism, and then staying there for a long period of time is the main cause of ketosis.
:glasses: :glasses: :glasses:
Everyone be happy.
Anyway.
I've done plenty of research through well known publications and research portals and I've never once found research that indicates that people with otherwise healthy liver and kidney function had damage done because of being in ketosis. I'll agree that people that have issues with either of those organs already can further damage them, but I've never seen any research done that proves that a healthy kidney or liver is damaged by the conversion of ketone bodies or the increased production of uric acid. If there is some research you have, I'd be more than happy to read it and, if reasonable, alter my opinion, but until I find some, I'm not going to. I, by no means think I'm perfect on this (or any subject) and would be happy to re-think my opinion if warranted, but as I said, I'd like to at least read the studies before I do so. Just saying "Your wrong" doesn't phase me. If I'm wrong, please (and I'm being completely serious here, nothing snarky), point me to the studies. Again, no problem here with admitting I'm wrong (if I am), I have been before, and will be again.
As to the thyroid subject. Of course I was speaking of hypothyroidism. Not sure why you would even mention it considering what you thought I was talking about was what I was, especially in a tone that (maybe I'm wrong but it felt that way) sounded completely confrontational.
anyway, it's not that big of a deal.
Have a good week all!
-Banks
Oh, P.S. if anyone wants that really well done study on all the different types of diets and their long term effects on obese people, I could probably dig it up, it was in the New England Journal of Medicine about a year or two ago, I have it saved somewhere. Might take me a day or two, and I can't post it directly (it's illegal) but I can get you the study name, and publisher information if you want to go to the library or something. It was a really well written study, over 1 year with a lot of participants and very good control techniques.0 -
The trick is to eat complex carbs, simple sugars.
That would be...eat complex carbs instead of simple sugars....at least limit the simple sugars
lol, I was gonna say. That would be an interesting diet. :laugh:0 -
I have to echo banks - there is no scientific evidence that low carb will harm a normal healthy kidney, however there is plenty scientific date pointing to a diet high in carbohydrates will lead to obesity/diabetes and a whole host of heath problems. grains/carbs exist because humans farm them, however they were not meant to be eaten in their raw form. Frankly, the only nutrition question we really need to ask ourselves is: how should I eat in order to optimize my function.
I don't care how "healthy" you might think vegetarianism is, if you are chronically fatigued and storing tons of excess body fat while eating vegetarian, clearly it's not the right type of diet for you.
Conversely, to all those individuals who brag that they never eat any vegetables but who walk around with a 30 lbs spare-tire sitting around their midsections or a lovely set of scars from a recent quadruple bypass surgery… guess what guys, your diets suck too.
Ok, so can we agree how silly it is to argue that there is a "one size fits all", best diet. But how to begin determing the optimal diet for yourself?
I think before one starts bashing people for their nutritional choices, walk a mile in their shoes. They may have a a condition which has lead them to that lifestyle. And until diet genotyping is readily available, there will be all kinds of "fad" diets.
Stop bashing LC, you don't like it, move on.0 -
And as for Dr. Atkins don't forget the man DIED of a HEART ATTACK! That would be enough to convince me that maybe just maybe he wasn't 100% accurate!
This is not fact
Myth: Dr. Atkins died of a heart attack.
Fact: Dr. Atkins died as a result of a serious head injury from a fall that occurred April 8th, 2003. Hospital records detail the clinical course that occurred following arrival of Emergency Medical Services through the entirety of his hospitalization, confirming that after losing consciousness on the way to the hospital, Dr. Atkins condition failed to improve despite emergency neurosurgical treatment. Dr. Atkins was adamant about not wanting life support, and when his wishes were honored, he passed away on April 17th when ventilator life support was withdrawn.
Near the end of his life, Dr. Atkins was struggling with the effects of cardiomyopathy, and he did not hide that fact. Cardiomyopathy is a serious and progressive condition caused by a viral infection. Though this condition weakened his heart, its cause was clearly related to an infection and not his diet.
Just FYI0 -
first, guys, I'm neither for nor against a ketogenic diet as long as it's done for the right reasons (NOT as a fat burning diet, it's no better than any other), and done the right way watching very closely for the warning signs of issues.
that said, a few notes about this topic. First, Dr. Atkins did NOT die of a heart attack, that's a myth, he slipped on ice and smashed his head open and died of a brain hemorrhage (lovely thought). Second, while those symptoms listed above are POSSIBLE outcomes of the side effects of ketosis, most of them are symptoms of severe dehydration, which is bad, no doubt, but manageable if you monitor it closely. Third, there's no study that I've ever found to confirm that ketosis is bad for your liver or kidneys. In fact, most experts state that while it does put a higher strain on those organs, if your organs are otherwise healthy ketosis should not cause you any harm. If there is a study done that I'm unaware of, please post a link, I really would like to read it, as I said, I'm neither for or against, but love the facts of any situation.
do I think ketosis is a solid plan for weight loss, nope, in fact there ARE many studies that test the long term results of ketosis vs other types of weight loss strategies, and most (including reduced calorie, Atkins, south beach, and the Mediterranean diet) are all about the same with regards to weight loss, of course other markers for good health are a different story (like cholesterol and such, the Med diet was way better than all the others for that).
But I do believe ketogenic diets have their place. I.E. they are very good for people with seizures (epilepsy), they are great for people with certain thyroid conditions, and for people with food allergies. So Please, lets straddle the fence a bit guys, give the people the benefit of the doubt, and don't jump to conclusions.
Well said thanks Banks0 -
first, guys, I'm neither for nor against a ketogenic diet as long as it's done for the right reasons (NOT as a fat burning diet, it's no better than any other), and done the right way watching very closely for the warning signs of issues.
that said, a few notes about this topic. First, Dr. Atkins did NOT die of a heart attack, that's a myth, he slipped on ice and smashed his head open and died of a brain hemorrhage (lovely thought). Second, while those symptoms listed above are POSSIBLE outcomes of the side effects of ketosis, most of them are symptoms of severe dehydration, which is bad, no doubt, but manageable if you monitor it closely. Third, there's no study that I've ever found to confirm that ketosis is bad for your liver or kidneys. In fact, most experts state that while it does put a higher strain on those organs, if your organs are otherwise healthy ketosis should not cause you any harm. If there is a study done that I'm unaware of, please post a link, I really would like to read it, as I said, I'm neither for or against, but love the facts of any situation.
do I think ketosis is a solid plan for weight loss, nope, in fact there ARE many studies that test the long term results of ketosis vs other types of weight loss strategies, and most (including reduced calorie, Atkins, south beach, and the Mediterranean diet) are all about the same with regards to weight loss, of course other markers for good health are a different story (like cholesterol and such, the Med diet was way better than all the others for that).
But I do believe ketogenic diets have their place. I.E. they are very good for people with seizures (epilepsy), they are great for people with certain thyroid conditions, and for people with food allergies. So Please, lets straddle the fence a bit guys, give the people the benefit of the doubt, and don't jump to conclusions.
You're wrong about the kidney and liver damage possibilities. They definitely exist, and there are studies that have been done, as well as, people admitted to hospitals because of said damage related to ketosis ... I've cared for them myself. The only thyroid condition that might benefit from a diet that is ketogenic in nature would be someone with hyperthyroid, and those people should be closely followed and supervised by a Dr. I'm sorry that you feel that medical research is a jump to conclusions. My only point here was to point out that people that purposely starve themselves (as the posts I was referring to blatantly stated), are taking chances. Severe dehydration is not a cause of ketosis .... Actually throwing the body into starvation mode and screwing up your metabolism, and then staying there for a long period of time is the main cause of ketosis.
I eat Low Carb, and under dr. supervision. I asked my doctor and nutritionist about this and the answer I got about Liver/Kidney damage is this. IF you have damage to these organs already - Low Carb is not recommended, but for healthy individuals under doctors supervision this is rare.
Honest, there are plenty of studies both ways.0 -
Ok, so can we agree how silly it is to argue that there is a "one size fits all", best diet. But how to begin determing the optimal diet for yourself?
I think before one starts bashing people for their nutritional choices, walk a mile in their shoes. They may have a a condition which has lead them to that lifestyle. And until diet genotyping is readily available, there will be all kinds of "fad" diets.
Stop bashing LC, you don't like it, move on.
Thanks Mojo.....I could not have said it better.......0 -
Well said, GiGi. :drinker:Well, i dont believe in diets at all.... they only work while you are on them!!! I believe in a life style change, eating the foods i like in proper proportions.... anything else is just redunnkulious!!! Can you really live that way for life???? I guess its ok to diet (its just not for me), but once you lose the weight you really have to change your way of looking at food (life style change)! I would rather lose weight the slow and healthy way (1-2lbs a week), and keep it off enjoying the foods i love!!!0 -
Sorry for the inaccurate info about Dr. Atkins' death. Funny what passes for truth in the news nowadays. Thanks for the info.0
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I think before one starts bashing people for their nutritional choices, walk a mile in their shoes. They may have a a condition which has lead them to that lifestyle. And until diet genotyping is readily available, there will be all kinds of "fad" diets.
Stop bashing LC, you don't like it, move on.
Hear hear! Well said!
To further clarify - the OP said that she did Atkins for a year - apparently without success. OP, I'm sorry it didn't work for you. I have one question - did you work through the phases all the way to maintenance? Did you follow the plan religiously? For whatever reason, it didn't work for you. BUT, it has worked for hundreds of thousands of people. And by the way, I've worked in hospitals for 25 years, and I've NEVER had a case come in of someone who ended up with kidney or liver disease due to eating low carb. You said you had cared for them - in what capacity? And exactly how many cases?
Regardless of the answers to those questions - why don't you work your plan and just let us work ours? The implication that we don't respect the body God gave us if we do low-carb is just plain inflammatory and insulting.0 -
Sorry for the inaccurate info about Dr. Atkins' death. Funny what passes for truth in the news nowadays. Thanks for the info.
I, too, didn't know he died of a head injury - and that his heart condition was cardiomyopathy not cardiac failure.
The British Press are brilliant at printing outright lies if it fits their agenda, and over here, Atkins is deemed to be bad news.
The diet that all the magazines are raving about at the moment is the Dukan diet - has anyone here heard of it, or tried it?0 -
Dukan is just another High protein diet.0
This discussion has been closed.
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