Bulking and "weight" gain/ bloating

millaxoxo · February 2014

So I went from 1600 calories to about 2100 a day tryin to do a slowish clean bulk. I am female, first time. First week has gone by and I'm 5 pounds heavier. I know this is mostly due to the fact that I'm eating a lot more, high carb and so on but my question is is that since I'm so bloated and holding this water weight how will I know if I'm gaining "real " weight weekly? Will my body get used to it and drop to my initial starting weight or will it stay at this "bloated" weight and keep going up? How can I tell if I'm gaining too much weekly/eating too much if I keep retaining this water weight! Thanks

DopeItUp · February 2014

In my experience, the initial weight gain from water retention was permanent (7lbs). It doesn't just flush out, because I continue to eat much higher carbs, sodium, higher food volume, etc.. Gains after that were fat/muscle as far as I can tell. I would ignore this week's gain and focus on the following couple weeks to get a more accurate picture of actual mass you're putting on.

Having said that, it is generally recommended to walk you calories up slowly. Add 100/200 calories per week until you reach your full bulk calories. Helps mitigate some of that sudden water retention + potential extra fat gains from suddenly spiking your calories. Worth thinking about.

BluesGuitar · February 2014

Increasing your calorie count by 30% isn't "slowish" by any standard I've ever heard. A slow, clean bulk is intended to make sure your gains are "quality" gains - i.e. as much lean body mass as possible and as little body fat as possible. Unless you are on steroids, don't expect gains to be "quality" at that high of a clip. If I were you, I'd be shooting for 0.5 lb a week on average. If you are using drugs, that's a different story. Personally, I think you should increase your calories by 10% - 15% and see how your body reacts to that increase.

mrdexter1 · February 2014

As you progress gaining weight.. your strength should increase and you move to heavier weights.

if your strength doesn't increase...you re getting fat and need to get your training routine right for what you are trying to achieve and that's the easy bit..

Its the dieting that's a f....ker !

tyrsnbdr · February 2014

And take measurements. Wasit, hips, chest, arms, calves, thighs, etc...

trojan_bb · February 2014

That's a good increase, it's not too large.

The initial weight gain is water weight. Subsequent weight gain is muscle and fat, unless you are changing your diet as well. Your new weight with bloat becomes your "baseline".

waldo56 · February 2014

This. Measurements don't usually show the bloat weight much, if at all, especially areas you hold fat (waist in men).

An 5 lbs is a pretty normal number. You'll usually keep it until you start cutting, then the first 1-2 weeks you'll drop it all.

millaxoxo · February 2014

Thanks you guys! Yeah I guess I should have upped my calories slower but I know I maintain at 1950 Ish and don't want to not eat enough. Oh well trial and error I suppose but it sucks a bit! Guess I'll just deal with it lol

HungryasFuark · February 2014

Gaining 0.5 a week is a bad idea , anyone bulking up should aim for 1 or 2 pounds a month .

Kestrelwings · February 2014

Purely based on personal observation, I have seen people bulk at all sorts of different rates. I have a friend who (without drugs) has bulked at over 0.5lb per week and has stayed lean and lifts are going up briliantly. However I have also seen people who are bulking much slower but still doing a good weight training programme who have put on much more fat%. I think genetics must be a factor in how fast a bulk is 'right' for each person.

HMVOL7409 · February 2014

0.5lb/wk is average for what a female should aim for, not to mention would actually fall in your suggested range. Bad idea? Not at all. Is it always going to come on that way? Absolutely not.

alanwh · February 2014

Bad Idea???? - i'm no diet expert but i do know that 0.5lbs is 2lbs a month.

cmeiron · February 2014

0.25-0.5 lbs a week is what is normally recommended for women. Also, 0.5 x 4 weeks (1 month) = 2 lbs. (?)

OP I don't think you need to worry too much about that initial jump. Anyone going from dieting to eating a surplus (or even maintenance) is likely to experience about 3-5 lbs of water gain from glycogen replenishment and extra food "bulk". It may drop back down a bit in the next couple of weeks, before slowly tracking upward again, or you may just continue to gain from there. Sounds like you're doing just fine.

HungryasFuark · February 2014

haha sorryyy guyss im a metric reader ! ..my bad

cmeiron · February 2014

lol your reply makes more sense now

No worries

waldo56 · February 2014

1-2 lbs a months is very slow, even for a female.

Males can gain 3-4 lbs a month without excessive fat gain.

BluesGuitar · February 2014

Really? Interesting.

So what exactly is your suggestion for her? 3 - 4 a month as well, since you don't like the 1-2? So in theory you can put 48 lbs of lean body mass on her during the year?

Let me tell you something, if you can put 48 lbs of muscle on MALES during a calendar year without any sort of steroids, you would be one of the most highly requested trainers around my town and any other town. You should publish your methods.

Those gains are pushing it even for a new lifter experiencing new lifter gains (and you aint gonna get 50 lbs of muscle). Hell, I'll be the first in line. Sign me up.

I think that's shoddy advice. OP, take the conservative route. Shoot for the 1-2 lbs a month and see how your body acclimates to those gains. Last thing you want is to take it too fast and three months into it have 9 - 12 lbs of bad gains you have to recomposition out of.

JoRocka · February 2014

I know women bulk slower than men- but from what I've read on BB in the women's forum- the women who have gone ham and accepted the heavier fat- have seen much greater results as far as strength and size gains than those going about it the slower more conservative method. i'm more inclined to go the dirty eat all the things method- but my restriction is clothing- so keep that in mind. I have a job that involves very specific- clothes- and they are expensive- and hard to alter- and can only be altered but so much... so- be aware- clothing will/might be an issue. I'm living in stretching workout pants and hating every day at work- all my dresses still fit- but they are just awful for the winter. My boss apparently doesn't approve of work out pants for work.

anyway- back on topic

Jumping up 600-700 calories in one pop is a bit- you're definitely going to see some initial body reaction- I did maintenance for a month- then jumped up to and it was 400 or so and I think I'm still a little light- and I'm having pretty good results with size- but strenght seems mediocre.

The big jump just is hard mentally and also because of the initial gain you see from retention- by doing gradual step ups it's usually easier to accommodate and the body's reaction is less shocking. It's not going to kill you either way- you're going to cut it off at the end of your bulk.

waldo56 · February 2014

Growth doesn't go in blocks; the first x amount of surplus goes to muscle the remainder to goes to fat, that is not how the body works. There will always be fat gain with muscle gain. The efficiency of the gains tends to decline as the surplus size increases, but there are no absolute cutoffs. Fat gain is always part of the equation and to be expected.

Most first bulking year guys can gain about 2 lb/mo of muscle with a reasonable surplus. But if they try to gain 2 lb/mo, they won't gain 2 lb of muscle. Chances are they'd gain at a rate similar to a somewhat higher intake. I gain at roughly 2:1 M:F up to about 2 lb muscle, then the efficiency drops off a good bit. Were I to have a 250 cal surplus and try to gain 2 lb total per month, I'd expect 1.3 lbs muscle and 0.7 lbs fat. Perhaps I'd see some good efficiency and gain 1.5 lb muscle and 0.5 lb fat. But I could run a higher surplus with very little efficiency loss and hit 2 lb/mo with a surplus closer to 400 cal/day.

If a woman gains at 1:3 M:F up to about 1 lb muscle/mo, gaining 1 lb a month is not going to give a pound of muscle. Even if there are efficiency gains as surplus size decreases in the peak efficiency zone, its not a huge difference. Maybe you can achieve 1:2 so that 1 lb turns out to be 0.3 lb muscle and 0.7 lb fat.

There is also the lower bound problem. Estimating calorie intake, expenditure, and maintenance level is an imprecise science (plus maintenance level will rise when you are in a surplus). Meal timing is generally not considered important when standard gaining or losing, but it could become a very real issue when trying to maintain a tiny surplus. The key to growth is consistency, being in consistent calorie surplus 24/7, to have round the clock protein synthesis occurring. With a large enough surplus, this isn't an issue, as there is more than enough cushion. When trying to maintain a tiny surplus though, you are going to have efficiency issues.

But what is large enough, where does the lower bound problem cease to occur? This is not an easy question to answer and is probably individual to each person. Surpluses in the 100-200 cal/day area would surely be expected to have issues. 300-400 cal, probably not.

400 cal/day is a very good number for both males and females (3.2 lb/mo). It is enough that you won't run into any issues from being overly conservative, yet is small enough that fat gain won't be excessive. You should be able to hit near your max efficient monthly growth rate. If you are confident in how your body acts (as in you're not a beginner), you can probably shave 100 cal/day off of that and still do fine (for females and males that don't gain efficiently anymore), beginner males can probably tack on another 100 (to 500 cal/day) without much increase to fat gain. For every pound of muscle gained females will have to spend longer cutting afterwards; it sucks, but that's reality.

BluesGuitar · February 2014

+Waldo56 - I do understand that you should expect fat gain along with lean mass gain during a bulk. However, your original statement was that "males can gain 3-4 lbs a month without excessive fat gain". I disagreed with that statement (as the average lifter that has exhausted newbee gains will typically see a 1:1 muscle to fat ratio) and that is where my statement regarding your presumed ability to put on significant lean mass over a full year came from.

According to this last post YOU apparently can put on muscle to fat at a 2:1 clip, or even HIGHER - 3:1, per your "Perhaps I'd see some good efficiency and gain1.5 of muscle and 0.5 to fat". Do you realize what a genetic specimen you are? In no sports science literature have I ever heard of that type of ratio for the average NATURAL lifter. Ever. If true, you are an outlier, which is great, but expecting that from the average lifter is wishful thinking.

Also, in the third paragraph above you state that a woman should expect a muscle to fat ratio of 1:3? So women have a significantly lower expected ratio than men? Though I know may women may expect less absolute hypertrophy gains due to hormonal and physiological reasons, I've never heard of any reason why a woman should gain at a 1:3 pace versus your supposed 3:1 gains. I'd be really interested in reading any study that references that sort of a difference between the sexes.

You state in your last paragraph 3.2 lbs a month is "a very good number for males and females". Well, if your 1:3 muscle to fat ratio were accurate for women at the end of 3 months she would have a roughly a 10 lb gain where she would expect 2.5 lbs of muscle to 7.5 fat? That would be a silly recommendation if those numbers played out that way.

They don't.

I can go on, but I guess the bottom line is that I'm just not buying what you are selling and so stick to my original recommendation: Approximately 2 lbs a month for the average female trainee, if natural, in order to maximize lean gains.

OP, best of luck.

waldo56 · February 2014

You sound like a person that's done a lot of reading and not a whole lot of doing.

Someone that doesn't understand the realities of what its like to run a surplus. Am I even gaining? Am I gaining too fast? What if my maintenance calc is wrong? Most people "cheat" when bulking and undereat. Most people's metabolism will rise when bulking, which will eat up your suplus. Most people have a good amount of NEAT increase when they start bulking, and end up with a smaller surplus than they expected.

Running a small but consistent surplus is not easy to do. Starting out with a +400 goal means you'll probably undershoot, but you will be in a surplus (hence why I said with experience, one can try to go lower).

And are you 'cusing me of not being natty (if so, woooo, that's when you know you've made it). I do bulk very clean, however there are reasons:
- Consistency, I can maintain a very consistent intake day after day
- LISS, I never quit the easy-moderate cardio when bulking, IMHO it keeps the gains cleaner
- Protein spread, I'm also a believer in protein before bed, protein when walking up, and no big gaps during the day, again IMHO it keeps the gains cleaner.

Bulking and "weight" gain/ bloating

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