Challenge to Embrace Debate
IronPlayground
Posts: 1,594 Member
I've been on MFP going on two years and I've read a lot of debates specifically on the nutrition side of things.
Before I go into the main point of this post, I'll add that when I first started I had hard line beliefs based on what I'd heard in the past. I believed that there are certain things you can do to magically increase fat loss. I was on a crusade to prove that diet sodas would destroy the human race faster than a nuclear strike. I've evolved a good bit since then.
Everyday, and I do literally mean everyday, you will see a post regarding carbs, sugar, clean eating, flexible dieting, Paleo, IIFYM, etc. Usually someone who is new to MFP has heard that a certain way of eating has worked for someone they know and are curious about it. What ensues is the usual bickering back and forth of people with hard line stances. This is similar to what you get in politics or religion. You're either being talked down to from the soapbox or preached at. Most people will immediately be turned off by this approach and move on. The downside is that one of those folks may actually know what they are talking about, but no one will listen because of how the information is being delivered.
Here is my take on debates and why they are important to this community when handled properly. Most of the time both people's approach will work. The beauty of having knowledgeable people giving opinions is that they usually post links to studies that support their beliefs. What that does is allows less informed people to research, for themselves, these issues. Which then leads to a more educated community.
So, here is my challenge. When these topics pop up, why not try to educate people with information to support your claim instead of trying to prove the other person wrong. Technically, unless we are talking about Tracey Anderson, then the other person is not that far off. Let the person who posted the question decide for themselves if it fits their lifestyle and they can adhere to it instead of telling them they should or shouldn't. Yes, I do realize that some people post for validation. I get that, but there nothing that can be done with those folks anyway.
I only say all this because I was one with hard line beliefs that was able to be enlightened because knowledgeable people took the time to post insightful rebuttals to controversial topics.
Before I go into the main point of this post, I'll add that when I first started I had hard line beliefs based on what I'd heard in the past. I believed that there are certain things you can do to magically increase fat loss. I was on a crusade to prove that diet sodas would destroy the human race faster than a nuclear strike. I've evolved a good bit since then.
Everyday, and I do literally mean everyday, you will see a post regarding carbs, sugar, clean eating, flexible dieting, Paleo, IIFYM, etc. Usually someone who is new to MFP has heard that a certain way of eating has worked for someone they know and are curious about it. What ensues is the usual bickering back and forth of people with hard line stances. This is similar to what you get in politics or religion. You're either being talked down to from the soapbox or preached at. Most people will immediately be turned off by this approach and move on. The downside is that one of those folks may actually know what they are talking about, but no one will listen because of how the information is being delivered.
Here is my take on debates and why they are important to this community when handled properly. Most of the time both people's approach will work. The beauty of having knowledgeable people giving opinions is that they usually post links to studies that support their beliefs. What that does is allows less informed people to research, for themselves, these issues. Which then leads to a more educated community.
So, here is my challenge. When these topics pop up, why not try to educate people with information to support your claim instead of trying to prove the other person wrong. Technically, unless we are talking about Tracey Anderson, then the other person is not that far off. Let the person who posted the question decide for themselves if it fits their lifestyle and they can adhere to it instead of telling them they should or shouldn't. Yes, I do realize that some people post for validation. I get that, but there nothing that can be done with those folks anyway.
I only say all this because I was one with hard line beliefs that was able to be enlightened because knowledgeable people took the time to post insightful rebuttals to controversial topics.
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Yay for education!
I believed a lot of crazy things when I first started. I was all about pills, cleanses and clean eating 6 meals a day at only 1200 calories. I've learned a lot in the last few years. I think it is great when we can help provide information to others. I agree that sometimes debates need to be offering our point of view with support and letting them decide. As much as we hate seeing people struggle or fail sometimes they have to learn the hard way.
As someone said the other day if you can't stick to the "optimal" way then that way is not optimal for you.0 -
food for thought.0
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In for healthy debate.
i think the problem comes in when someone comes in with a chip on their shoulder, or just demonstrably false information. Threads get sidetracked by the one nutcase who thinks their 30-day water fast is the 'jump start' everyone needs. A lot of veterans want to educate, but also want to point out when something is a Very Bad Idea.
Plus, sometimes threads are so ridiculous that cat gifs are the only way to properly express your feelings about them.0 -
So, here is my challenge. When these topics pop up, why not try to educate people with information to support your claim instead of trying to prove the other person wrong.
Why not?
Because people, by and large, don't want to be the one being convinced, they want to be the one doing the convincing. And the strength of that "want" is generally inversely proportional to how much they actually know.
That...is the brutal reality.
But I wish you luck with your crusade! It seems you've convinced yourself you've found the One True Path (winks ironically) and I wish you luck with it!
:drinker:0 -
So, here is my challenge. When these topics pop up, why not try to educate people with information to support your claim instead of trying to prove the other person wrong.
Why not?
Because people, by and large, don't want to be the one being convinced, they want to be the one doing the convincing. And the strength of that "want" is generally inversely proportional to how much they actually know.
That...is the brutal reality.
But I wish you luck with your crusade! It seems you've convinced yourself you've found the One True Path (winks ironically) and I wish you luck with it!
:drinker:
I didn't see anywhere in his OP where he said there's only one way. He mentioned a few things he used to think that he's changed his mind on, but he didn't say they were wrong. What did I miss that he was promoting as the "One True Path"?0 -
The OP is taking a "hard line" position on how debate "should" be structured - hence the irony.
It's all good - we all do this in our own way - I'm not going off on the OP, just having some casual chat board fun - hence the :drinker:.0 -
As someone who is here to learn, I appreciate the opportunity to discuss different approaches in a rational, adult manner.
Unfortunately, there is so much FUD out there that wading through it can be a challenge even to the most scientifically litterate amoungst us. It's sad that so many folks want a quick fix that they are willing to throw all rationality out the window, and worse, react very poorly when their premises are challenged.
Someday I'll start threads cataloguing all of the Really Bad Ideas (Green Coffee Bean, Raspberry Ketones, (magic pill/cleanse of the day), but Oprah/Dr. OZ/ Suzanne Sommers/etx said...) and BroScience (China Study, Calories Don't Matter, (x) is evil and should never be consumed by humans, eeeek! Chemicals!) that seem to come up with annoying frequency, just to save folks time.0 -
BUMP0
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I personally think this is a great post. When I create a topic I hope to learn as much as possible, instead of people telling me what to do, I would love to hear the reasoning behind it. I read all the posts I can and try to learn from people. MFP has been a great source of information for a stupid dude like me!0
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The challenge lies in debate with intelligent points being made, and then attempts to argue with those points basically by bringing up false information without any truth to back it up. Even when those of us with good information do bring up scientific proof, others will post their own links to sites that often are not backed up with any sort of scientific data and readers don't know how to tell the difference. A lot of noobs simply get a lot of data thrown at them via links to this site and that site and this expert and that expert and honestly, how do they know who to believe? It takes a long time to learn which sites are actual scientifically researched sites and which experts are medically trained and respected within their own scientific communities, as opposed to media- glorified hype.0
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As someone who still has a lot to learn, I realllllly appreciate it when people post information and links to actual studies. I'm still trying to find my way and make sense of the often contradictory approaches.....and realizing that because everyone is different, sometimes different approaches work better for one group than another.0
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I'm not an idiot, okay? I wouldn't believe it if it weren't true. Obviously if I was wrong I'd change my mind about it to be right again.
But you don't know any more than I do. You're just some person on the internet - that doesn't make you any more right than I am.
Just because you heard something somewhere is true and you think it's true is no better than me. And you can link all the studies and research you want but you can find studies that say anything.
I have two friends who did that and lost all their weight. My doctor told me, too.
So just because you have 10,000 posts on the fitness pal doesn't mean you're right.0 -
[/quote]
Why not?
Because people, by and large, don't want to be the one being convinced, they want to be the one doing the convincing. And the strength of that "want" is generally inversely proportional to how much they actually know.
That...is the brutal reality.
[/quote]
I've found this to be pretty true. I feel like a lot of times when someone posts a question about nutrition they are looking for certain answer and when they don't get that they argue. For example, if you ask MFP if you can eat 5000 calories a day and not exercise and still lose weight hoping to be told that sure, that's a great idea and why not, you're not going to hear what you want to hear. Does that make sense? I genuinely believe there are people on here who just don't want to do the actual work required to meet their goals and come here looking for a pat on the back for their excuses. And while I'm not saying that's a reason to be nasty to someone, it does get irritating.0 -
On the other hand, posting obvious reasons for why an uninformed poster is wrong may actually educate an uninformed browser - so much easier to correct someone's thinking if they never have to let on that they were wrong in the first place.
Also, I have to concur with the poster who said it's hard for the layperson to distinguish between scientific evidence and a bunch of untested hypotheses or societal myths. Not many know which journals are crap and which are respectable. Most still think getting the info off of someone's professional-looking blog actually means something.0 -
So, here is my challenge. When these topics pop up, why not try to educate people with information to support your claim instead of trying to prove the other person wrong.
A appropriate quote i think:Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.
I always like to challenge my beliefs with conflicting data......sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. :happy:0 -
What's wrong with Tracey Anderson? Because of her, I'm no longer able to lift anything heavy, giving me the benefit of having men flock to my aid.0
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in....to see where this goes...0
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here are my thoughts..
Debates, by nature, are going to be argumentative. No one goes into a debate sees one counter point and say's oh yeaa you were right, and I am wrong..and most debates typically end with no one agreeing on said topic.
I do find it ironic that you complain about debates on MFP, and then try to set up rules based on how you want debates to go.
As far as MFP goes, the reason that the sugar, detox, carb threads seem to get snarky is because there are about a million threads on each subject and no one ever agrees on them. If you truly believe that sugar is "toxic" then nothing I am going to say is going to make you think that way; plus, since there are so many bunk studies and documentaries about the "evils" of sugar people are just going to keep blindly pointing to them and ignoring everything else....
So nice try, but what you want to happen is probably not going to happen...
oh, and I will keep being a wise *kitten* because that is who I am..0 -
As someone who is here to learn, I appreciate the opportunity to discuss different approaches in a rational, adult manner.
Unfortunately, there is so much FUD out there that wading through it can be a challenge even to the most scientifically litterate amoungst us. It's sad that so many folks want a quick fix that they are willing to throw all rationality out the window, and worse, react very poorly when their premises are challenged.
Someday I'll start threads cataloguing all of the Really Bad Ideas (Green Coffee Bean, Raspberry Ketones, (magic pill/cleanse of the day), but Oprah/Dr. OZ/ Suzanne Sommers/etx said...) and BroScience (China Study, Calories Don't Matter, (x) is evil and should never be consumed by humans, eeeek! Chemicals!) that seem to come up with annoying frequency, just to save folks time.
that has already been done by yours truly....it just causes more people to get pissed...but they are fun!0 -
I think the debates here are just fine, and people need to grow thicker skin. Changing someone's mindset isn't usually a clean process.
Watch British Parliamentary debates if you want to see real action.0 -
My intent was not to try to establish a set of rules for healthy debate.
From personal experience and from what others have posted, there were things I believed were "the" way when I first started. I had to read, read some more and then read again to prove to me that what I believed wasn't exactly accurate.
Look, I get that some people just like to argue. I'm not on some crusade to change people's personality. This isn't even about people being rude on here. I could care less about that. It's taking the time to help educate people with quality advice that matters.
The funny part about a lot of the arguments you see is that both sides are actually not wrong. It really comes down to each individuals preference. Now, understand that I'm talking about healthy approaches not unhealthy. But, a debate about how much carbs a person should eat lies somewhere in the middle of the argument most of the time with both sides being somewhat accurate.0 -
I think the debates here are just fine, and people need to grow thicker skin. Changing someone's mindset isn't usually a clean process.
Watch British Parliamentary debates if you want to see real action.
seriously, or read some of the stuff around the time after the American Revolutionary war that they wrote about each other...0 -
My intent was not to try to establish a set of rules for healthy debate.
From personal experience and from what others have posted, there were things I believed were "the" way when I first started. I had to read, read some more and then read again to prove to me that what I believed wasn't exactly accurate.
Look, I get that some people just like to argue. I'm not on some crusade to change people's personality. This isn't even about people being rude on here. I could care less about that. It's taking the time to help educate people with quality advice that matters.
The funny part about a lot of the arguments you see is that both sides are actually not wrong. It really comes down to each individuals preference. Now, understand that I'm talking about healthy approaches not unhealthy. But, a debate about how much carbs a person should eat lies somewhere in the middle of the argument most of the time with both sides being somewhat accurate.
I mean this with all due respect, but who made you the Debate Rule King of MFP? I have like 6000 more posts then you do, shouldn't I be debate king????0 -
Let the process happen. Again, it's not always pretty, and yes feelings get hurt, but I honestky think we all grow from a healthy and vigorous debate process. It forces us to hone our thinking about the information that is available. If anything, it's the mindset towards debate that needs to change, i.e. vigorous debate isn't bullying or mean, it's simply an intellectual process.0
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:explode:0
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I think the debates here are just fine, and people need to grow thicker skin. Changing someone's mindset isn't usually a clean process.
Watch British Parliamentary debates if you want to see real action.
"I love argument, I love debate. I don't expect anyone just to sit there and agree with me, that's not their job." Margaret Thatcher
"If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen." Harry S. Truman and Grandma0 -
My intent was not to try to establish a set of rules for healthy debate.
From personal experience and from what others have posted, there were things I believed were "the" way when I first started. I had to read, read some more and then read again to prove to me that what I believed wasn't exactly accurate.
Look, I get that some people just like to argue. I'm not on some crusade to change people's personality. This isn't even about people being rude on here. I could care less about that. It's taking the time to help educate people with quality advice that matters.
The funny part about a lot of the arguments you see is that both sides are actually not wrong. It really comes down to each individuals preference. Now, understand that I'm talking about healthy approaches not unhealthy. But, a debate about how much carbs a person should eat lies somewhere in the middle of the argument most of the time with both sides being somewhat accurate.
I mean this with all due respect, but who made you the Debate Rule King of MFP? I have like 6000 more posts then you do, shouldn't I be debate king????
So Post count indicates right or wrong ? So Post count indicates a persons knowledge. ? I know that my low post count may indicate I don't spell very well.0 -
I think the debates here are just fine, and people need to grow thicker skin. Changing someone's mindset isn't usually a clean process.
Watch British Parliamentary debates if you want to see real action.
"I love argument, I love debate. I don't expect anyone just to sit there and agree with me, that's not their job." Margaret Thatcher
"If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen." Harry S. Truman and Grandma
Grandma was one smart cookie!
Mmmmm, cookies. . . .0 -
My intent was not to try to establish a set of rules for healthy debate.
From personal experience and from what others have posted, there were things I believed were "the" way when I first started. I had to read, read some more and then read again to prove to me that what I believed wasn't exactly accurate.
Look, I get that some people just like to argue. I'm not on some crusade to change people's personality. This isn't even about people being rude on here. I could care less about that. It's taking the time to help educate people with quality advice that matters.
The funny part about a lot of the arguments you see is that both sides are actually not wrong. It really comes down to each individuals preference. Now, understand that I'm talking about healthy approaches not unhealthy. But, a debate about how much carbs a person should eat lies somewhere in the middle of the argument most of the time with both sides being somewhat accurate.
QFT-Nice post0
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