"Dieting" and losing LBM...and then bulking

Fithealthyforlife

Has anyone here who is bulking now, previously gone on a diet, but did it before you knew the right way to lose weight without losing LBM? And as a result you lost a good amount of muscle (say 5 or more pounds of it)...

And now you're purposely gaining weight to get the muscle back.

Has this happened to anyone here? I'm not talking about intentional bulk/cut cycles where you lose 1-2 lbs of muscle on an aggressive cut. I'm talking about weight loss that was either intentional or unintentional, and resulted in a loss of significant LBM.

(I was never overweight, but a similar thing happened to me years ago. I had very low body fat, and accidently didn't eat enough to hit maintenance on average for a number of years (because I didn't know about maintenance intake/eating back exercise calories back then) and didn't strength train often. Result was a 20-lb weight loss over about 10 years, most of which was LBM. And to get it back, I've been finding I have to eat a lot more than I ever did in the past...

And now I'm bulking. Anyone else with similar experiences?

Fithealthyforlife

It's a shame, but a lot of the scientific papers I've read on energy expenditure and caloric needs, talk about a universal decrease in BMR as people diet. And they have found that it's due almost entirely to muscle loss. I say it's a shame because they just accept that muscle loss is part of losing weight/dieting (but it doesn't have to be).

AliceDark

I'm in a very similar boat. I've had not the best relationship with food, and didn't realize I'd been eating at a consistent deficit for years until I started having to reduce weights on my lifts and was still injuring myself even at the lighter weights. Yay for losing muscle.

I took about six weeks to step up my intake, then started eating consistently at (what should be) a surplus at the beginning of January. Since then, I've already upped my intake by 100cal/day once, but I'm anticipating I'll have to do that at least once more. I'm trying to take it very slowly and give my body plenty of time to adjust, so I could probably be upping more quickly but I'm choosing not to. I'm gaining strength fairly quickly, which I love; my weight is up since I started but it's still fluctuating a lot. I guess that's pretty common for women trying to bulk, so I'm just trying to stick with it and enjoy the process.

lre224

I agree with you that it doesn't have to be.

I'm still working on getting to my goal weight; I haven't succeeded yet. I work with a personal trainer 3x/week who has a Tanita Ironman scale, where it tells you muscle mass, % body fat and such. He weighs me on it once/month so we have an idea of where I'm at as far as % body fat & muscle. While it might not be the most accurate method out there, it's relative from month to month by using the same reference point. With the trainer, I lift weights & I do cardio on my own.

What I've found is that when I succeed in eating well; then my body fat % will drop while muscle mass stays relatively the same. However, if I eat poorly that month, even though I might show a weight loss, the muscle mass and % hydration will drop. His goal is to keep my muscle mass relatively the same while losing % body fat. I've had muscle mass drop 5 lbs in a month before, then I'm able to bring it back up.

waternazi59

...decrease in BMR as people diet. And they have found that it's due almost entirely to muscle loss. I say it's a shame because they just accept that muscle loss is part of losing weight/dieting (but it doesn't have to be).

Hello! I'm new here but your post caught my attention, could you please point me in the direction of informing myself how not to lose muscle as a result of losing weight? Tks. W

Fithealthyforlife

I always feel like people who have weight to lose would avoid having to intentionally bulk later if they could just keep the muscle. I've read that people eating enough protein and who are active in ways that trigger protein sysnthesis from time-to-time, tend to gain about 30-40% of their weight as LBM when they gat "fat" from overeating chronically. Probably 20-35% of that total LBM is muscle, I would guess. So, the moral of the story is that "getting fat" is really like a bulk phase, just with a lower ratio of muscle gain and a higher ratio of fat gain.

But then people go and do the exact opposite when they lose, and shed most of what they built up. And their BMR decreases.

wheird

Well, the good part is that you can regain that lost LBM fairly quickly. Within a couple months.

liftsforchocolate

When I lost weight a while back (before I started lifting) I was eating around 1200 cals and burning off 500-600 calories everyday. Not only that, but I was eating maybe 50% carbs, 30% fat, and 20% protein. Most of the weight I lost was muscle and when I did do a mini bulk, I was eating "maintenance" and 100-200 cals over some days and gained a considerable amount of fat to my already flabby body.

It took a long time @ 1700 cals and lifting to fix my stupid mistakes, and I'm still cutting. When I see people eating only fruits and vegetables, 2 hrs of cardio everyday, 1000 cals (or less), I cringe and want to sit them down and just tell them how ridiculous they're being again and again until it clicks. I tried this with my sister but it hasn't clicked with her yet, b/c she's lost "4 pounds".

Dieting like that, fasting etc were the dumbest things I have ever done and wish I could go back at eat a sensible 1400-1500 cals of proper macros, but can't change the past! I think also when the bmr is so low, muscle is lost, bulking leads to more fat gain primarily anyway right? (Not sure, but I read this somewhere).

ab_1203

Im in this situation, but Im not gaining weight now, just losing more fat and then Ill gain. I was doing tons of exercise( insanity everyday, football and jogging), not feeding myself enough calories, probably getting around 1200 a day which is nothing for a guy and I also wasnt eating enough protein while fasting most of the time. I also didnt strength train. I just wanted the fat gone and all I knew was to do more exercise and eat less, I knew nothing about macros. I lost a lot of muscle, more than fat. Now Im working on stripping of the fat and then Ill start bulking. It really does suck.

Fithealthyforlife

Well, the good part is that you can regain that lost LBM fairly quickly. Within a couple months.

Not for me! My new "set point" appears to be my *current* weight, since I've been here (+/-6 lbs) for a few years now. I wish it was my old/default weight, but it's not. My body is doing everything it can to try to burn calories to keep from gaining. I am trying meditation to help reduce this.

Gaining is therefore taking a lot of calories.

I bulked for 3 months, and gained 7-8 lbs, then lost 2, for a net gain of 5 or so...

Back at it.

Slim_strategy

When I lost weight a while back (before I started lifting) I was eating around 1200 cals and burning off 500-600 calories everyday. Not only that, but I was eating maybe 50% carbs, 30% fat, and 20% protein. Most of the weight I lost was muscle and when I did do a mini bulk, I was eating "maintenance" and 100-200 cals over some days and gained a considerable amount of fat to my already flabby body.

It took a long time @ 1700 cals and lifting to fix my stupid mistakes, and I'm still cutting. When I see people eating only fruits and vegetables, 2 hrs of cardio everyday, 1000 cals (or less), I cringe and want to sit them down and just tell them how ridiculous they're being again and again until it clicks. I tried this with my sister but it hasn't clicked with her yet, b/c she's lost "4 pounds".

Dieting like that, fasting etc were the dumbest things I have ever done and wish I could go back at eat a sensible 1400-1500 cals of proper macros, but can't change the past! I think also when the bmr is so low, muscle is lost, bulking leads to more fat gain primarily anyway right? (Not sure, but I read this somewhere).

Omg we are the EXACT same. xD

Fithealthyforlife

When I lost weight a while back (before I started lifting) I was eating around 1200 cals and burning off 500-600 calories everyday. Not only that, but I was eating maybe 50% carbs, 30% fat, and 20% protein. Most of the weight I lost was muscle and when I did do a mini bulk, I was eating "maintenance" and 100-200 cals over some days and gained a considerable amount of fat to my already flabby body.

It took a long time @ 1700 cals and lifting to fix my stupid mistakes, and I'm still cutting. When I see people eating only fruits and vegetables, 2 hrs of cardio everyday, 1000 cals (or less), I cringe and want to sit them down and just tell them how ridiculous they're being again and again until it clicks. I tried this with my sister but it hasn't clicked with her yet, b/c she's lost "4 pounds".

Dieting like that, fasting etc were the dumbest things I have ever done and wish I could go back at eat a sensible 1400-1500 cals of proper macros, but can't change the past! I think also when the bmr is so low, muscle is lost, bulking leads to more fat gain primarily anyway right? (Not sure, but I read this somewhere).

Omg we are the EXACT same. xD

Similar deal here. But as a guy I was eating in the low 2000s or so, rather than low/mid 1000s. I definitely didn't know I was supposed to eat back exercise calories, either...until I found MFP.

---

Yeah, for women if your body fat level is really low, your body is probably trying to increase essential fat levels a bit before devoting a lot of resources to muscle.

ashlystr

I think that a lot of it has to do with WHAT the calories are that you eat, and HOW you exercise.

In terms of what you're eating and how you're getting the calories you have to be consuming calories that do some of the work for you, focusing on raw fruits and veggies as much as possible while consuming enough protein. It is important to only up your protein past normal levels if you are working out enough to compensate for it, otherwise it will just result in increased fat.

There is exercise for fat burn, which is at 65% of your heart rate and then exercise for cardio that is at 80% of your heart rate. If you want to burn fat without losing a lot of muscle, I really recommend staying in the fat burning target heart rate and exercising for a bit longer of time but only while in that fat burning zone. Also, the focus should be on doing weights with the most amount of weight possible for 10-15 reps, as opposed to doing a lot of reps with a low amount of weight. I have been able to lose 10 lbs so far without losing any muscle, in fact, I have gained a fair amount of muscle in my legs and arms.

34blast

I'm in a bit of the same boat. I lifted heavy 3 times per week while losing 40 lbs over 6 months. According to my body fat scales, I lost about 6 pounds of muscle. So i'm working now on adding some muscle. Some will disagree, but I think it is inevitable to lose some muscle. The heavy lifting and not too large a deficit, will help you maintain as much as possible.

So in the end, I'm hoping to have the same amount of muscle with just less fat. I'm hoping to be there by summer.

Kirk_R

I'm not exactly in the situation you're describing but I have lost a bunch of muscle over the last few years as I focused more on running and less on lifting heavy things. After a half marathon in may I'm planning to spend some time getting some of the meat back. It's going to be interesting to see how that will work out now that I'm a bit older.

Kestrelwings

Just to cheer people up, LBM can and is regained.

I lost about 10kg over a period of about 6 months through undereating without any exercise because I was unwell, taking my BMI dangerously low. I had no MFP to help me with a sensible regain, and just had to guess and increase my intake in stages. It took me about 9 months to regain it and be within healthy BMI range.

Good news? Even though I was not lifting during the regain I ended up with a very respectable (for a woman) 23% body fat, so I must have had a good amount of LBM increase and it was not flab that I put on.

I have now started lifting (awesome fun) and want to bulk to increase my lifts. I still instinctively undereat, and bulking is proving an uphill struggle. However I do take hope from the fact that I managed good LBM before and can do so again.

Hornsby

I did it the wrong way, and dropped all my weight eating at a deficit that some would consider large I think. I usually ate around 1500 calories, and burned around 700-800 each day. Wasn't right, but it worked.

Sarah4fitness

Lots of people (Thanks, bro-science, media, and Dr. Oz!) lose weight by cutting calories and increasing their cardio. That's a fantastic recipe to drop pounds, sure, but also to drop MUSCLE.

As the Enlightened Losers know, the goal SHOULD be called Fat Loss, not Weight Loss. I want to drop fat. I want to keep my muscle, so I can keep my shape and be strong and fit. When I'm on a "cut" I lift heavy weights and continue to eat as much protein as my deficit will allow, which has allowed me to in fact GAIN muscle while losing fat. This continues to be my goal, and though the "pounds" change more slowly, the appearance of my body and my strength changes drastically with a few lb. loss.

Fithealthyforlife

Lots of people (Thanks, bro-science, media, and Dr. Oz!) lose weight by cutting calories and increasing their cardio. That's a fantastic recipe to drop pounds, sure, but also to drop MUSCLE.

As the Enlightened Losers know, the goal SHOULD be called Fat Loss, not Weight Loss. I want to drop fat. I want to keep my muscle, so I can keep my shape and be strong and fit. When I'm on a "cut" I lift heavy weights and continue to eat as much protein as my deficit will allow, which has allowed me to in fact GAIN muscle while losing fat. This continues to be my goal, and though the "pounds" change more slowly, the appearance of my body and my strength changes drastically with a few lb. loss.

There's some good info there! And I agree with the terminology issue. And I hate broscience.

I'm putting on a little bit of flab over time from my surplus. I imagine someday I'll have to cut or recomp.

Just curious, how much did you jack up your protein and how much of a deficit did you use on your cut(s)?

Sarah4fitness

Lots of people (Thanks, bro-science, media, and Dr. Oz!) lose weight by cutting calories and increasing their cardio. That's a fantastic recipe to drop pounds, sure, but also to drop MUSCLE.

As the Enlightened Losers know, the goal SHOULD be called Fat Loss, not Weight Loss. I want to drop fat. I want to keep my muscle, so I can keep my shape and be strong and fit. When I'm on a "cut" I lift heavy weights and continue to eat as much protein as my deficit will allow, which has allowed me to in fact GAIN muscle while losing fat. This continues to be my goal, and though the "pounds" change more slowly, the appearance of my body and my strength changes drastically with a few lb. loss.

There's some good info there! And I agree with the terminology issue. And I hate broscience.

I'm putting on a little bit of flab over time from my surplus. I imagine someday I'll have to cut or recomp.

Just curious, how much did you jack up your protein and how much of a deficit did you use on your cut(s)?

When you're taking in a surplus, some of that will be stored as fat, and that's OK! Nothing wrong with a good slow bulk, and a subsequent cut if you so desire.
My protein is about (or just under) 1g/1lb of bodyweight. My deficit varies based on activity level, but without "calories burned" aspect, they're about 200 below maintenance estimate, daily. I do not eat my deficit. And I do consistently increase the weight on my lifts. Each week I aim to either go up in weight, or increase by 2 reps. When I hit 12 reps (3 sets usually) I increase the weight so I can only do 8 again.

Fithealthyforlife

Thanks!

Each week I aim to either go up in weight, or increase by 2 reps. When I hit 12 reps (3 sets usually) I increase the weight so I can only do 8 again.

And wow...even during a deficit! How long you been lifting?

Sarah4fitness

Been lifting since high school. That was. . . years ago. I did the whole "medium weight high reps" bullcrap for years because I was "scared of getting huge". I've only been lifting heavy and WELL for 3ish years. My first formal "cut" was with a coach beginning around this time last year, ending in May. I'm on a similar plan now, after laxing up a bit with the eating, and gained more muscle over the past year. Excited to see what happens over the next 12+ weeks.

Gaining size and muscle mass takes time. It also takes a willingness to wear "the fluff" for a while, and to be okay with increased overall size. I've not officially bulked, but it sounds like SO MUCH FUN (hello, lots of protein and calories and heavy lifting with minimal cardio? YES PLEASE) I think the key is not to freak out that yes, bodyfat will also increase with your gains.

AshwinA7

I just recently learned that it was possible to keep the muscle you have by lifting while dieting to lose fat specifically.

Since starting my weight loss journey, I've lost about 50 lbs but after I started rock climbing, I realized very quickly that I had lost quite a bit of strength in the process. I don't know what my body fat percentage (and therefore, what LBM is) but I imagine I've lost a lot of muscle in the process.

DITT2014

Great info Sarah4fitness.

Thanks!

Sunitagt

I always feel like people who have weight to lose would avoid having to intentionally bulk later if they could just keep the muscle. I've read that people eating enough protein and who are active in ways that trigger protein sysnthesis from time-to-time, tend to gain about 30-40% of their weight as LBM when they gat "fat" from overeating chronically. Probably 20-35% of that total LBM is muscle, I would guess. So, the moral of the story is that "getting fat" is really like a bulk phase, just with a lower ratio of muscle gain and a higher ratio of fat gain.

But then people go and do the exact opposite when they lose, and shed most of what they built up. And their BMR decreases.

I hope I won't be cut out of here since I'm in the losing weight phase, but I have been thinking about this a lot over the last few days after reading something someone posted. I've still got about 100 lbs to lose, but I would prefer to try and keep as much muscle as I can with that, and it kinda seems like a 'cut' is just the same as losing weight.

At any rate, do you all have suggestions on the best way to keep going on this? Right now I only have access to weight machines and dumbells at my gym, is that going to be enough? From what I've read, compound exercises are the best for you, but I don't have access to a barbell to do deadlifts and squats (the way I've seen them). I mean, I'm still researching to find out what the next best thing is with the dumbells, but if you guys have any suggestions...

joan23_us

...decrease in BMR as people diet. And they have found that it's due almost entirely to muscle loss. I say it's a shame because they just accept that muscle loss is part of losing weight/dieting (but it doesn't have to be).

Hello! I'm new here but your post caught my attention, could you please point me in the direction of informing myself how not to lose muscle as a result of losing weight? Tks. W

these video will give you an idea, i highly recommend if you have the time to watch DR. LAYNE NORTON, Phd videos onb youtube username biolayne, tones of information... YOU want the right direction... here yah go..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcM8HablpZk&list=PLOWGRN9SI9ZNdXEPYHgoFJRZDPNvEJ1Ms&index=9

BeachGingerOnTheRocks

I did this from August/September 2012 to February/March 2013 with great results. All told, I dropped from mid-high 20s percent body fat to just under 20 percent and gained several pounds LBM. I got sick with meningitis in October/November this year and had no choice but to take time away from the gym. I lost lean mass and weight. I started back up right around December 15, and then got the flu. After an extended period spent recovering again because it re-triggered meningitis symptoms, I've restarted a bulk. I'm just now seeing noticeable physical improvements, both in strength and hypertrophy. You can say I've done it twice now.

I plan to keep the bulk going for several more weeks, around 8 more weeks, and then cutting.

Fithealthyforlife

Here's one of the studies from the past (still cited today) in which people were overfed and did not strength train, though they were active to some degree.

The takeaway is that in men and women, there was roughly a 40% LBM gain without strength-training. Obviously not all LBM is muscle, but in the discussion, there is evidence that a good amount of it was.

What this means, I think, is that it reinforces that overweight people should try as much as possible to preserve LBM. It will save them from having to intentionally bulk later (something that many are hesitant to do after losing weight intentionally), at least to some degree.

Link to full text pdf: http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=/BJN/BJN56_01/S0007114586000818a.pdf&code=3a8abc9b2b0a6a04a69d566e33aeaf5e

Fithealthyforlife

And as far as strategies to prevent muscle loss during weight loss/cutting...

-Protein!!!

-Strength training (with progressive overload if possible to handle)

-Proper sleep/rest

-Short duration of cut

-Eating at a slight deficit (~100 calories?) and "recomping" over time

What else?