The Clean Eating Myth; Why Insulin Isn't the Bad Guy

ndj1979

The article was CLEARLY addressing people who do not have metabolic problems or other health-related dietary restrictions. Nor was it aimed at people who are vegan, vegetarian, etc. due to lifestyle or personal choices.

So are vegetarians, vegans, or human beings who live in areas with limited flexibility all special snowflakes? If, as the author contends, "flexible dieting" is the only real way to lose or maintain weight, why are there so many hundreds of millions of exceptions to this rule?

I also find it a bit odd that you take so much issue with this article given that you are indeed practicing flexible dieting as demonstrated by your comment about how you enjoy cake and cookies yourself. If you feel like moderation and flexible dieting are paths to failure and no better than a restrictive diet long-term, why do still eat the foods you enjoy?

I've been on "restricted" eating plans in the past where I enjoyed what I ate and was not miserable. I sympathize with people who are on restricted path, either by necessity or choice, who all too often face endless suggestions that they must be miserable with their restrictions. This is incorrect.

I also take issue with the myth that "flexible dieting" and "moderation" lead to some significant increase in the chances of long term weight loss management, when the statistics don't back it up at all.

Also my personal path to weight loss does not include any calorie counting, weighing, or daily "moderation". So I'm likely not practicing "moderation" or flexibility in the way you assume.

Also note that I never said that moderation and flexible dieting are paths to "failure"', that's your interpretation. I'm merely challenging the idea that they offer significant increases for success, or that more restrictive diets are inherently bad for all, or even most.

where did the author say that flexible dieting is the only way to lose weight? I did not see the section that said "flexible dieting is the only way to to lose weight"…..

krawhitham

There are people who legitimately do not "love" food, or who don't feel miserable without the presence of poptarts and cookies.

I get what the author is saying, but it is a bit disconcerting that so many people believe that everyone HAS to love modern, processed foods in order to enact or sustain weight loss. As if all human beings were born with an inalienable right to Oreos. There does seem to be a very interesting attitude on the MFP boards that suggest all people like the same foods, and anybody limiting for any reason is setting themselves up for failure.

I have to partly agree with you, but put my spin on what the lot of the MFP community says. I believe they're defending their right to be able to eat these processed foods and still be healthy & lose weight - which I think is 100% accurate and correct. There is no reason to deprive ones self of a DiGiorno pizza simply because it has x amount of sugars and 13,234 ingredients.

That being said, I agree with what you're saying because I was brought up eating a VERY particular diet. My parents only had meat 2 times per week, fish once a week. The majority of my diet was brown rice and beans, salads, and minimal dairy except for yogurt (we are middle eastern, we put yogurt on EVERYTHING)

My indulgence when I came home from school was a HUGE bowl of air-popped popcorn. I love dark chocolate, but I never really got a taste for sweets or processed foods

Now that I'm an adult, bean salad, lentils & rice, broiled lamb... these are my COMFORT foods. That's not to say my whole family is skinny-minny. We're all at healthy weights now, but my mom has been obese in the past and so have I.

I am living proof that you can become obese from eating TOO MUCH (mainly vegetarian diet) beans, rice, salad, veggies, yogurt, and the occasional tuna or lamb dish & not exercising enough.

SapiensPisces

If you're going to post an article that suggests "clean eating" leads to unnecessary restrictions that hinder weight loss and management, please do back up the claims with studies and sound evidence that show "moderation" and "flexible dieting" lead to a significant increase in weight lost and maintained in the long run.

I'd love to read such studies, genuinely. So far they've eluded me.

I think you are fixating on this comment from the article:

Furthermore, strict clean eating just isn’t sustainable for most people psychologically; this is why you see so many people lose weight then go ahead and put it all back on, plus a few more pounds

Here is the reference the author gives for that statement:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0195666311005290

EDIT: this is only the abstract. I will try to find the full reference article.

Here's two more:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22329988
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24380882

Iwishyouwell

It seems to me that you're just wanting to argue with me over some perceived bias that isn't there.

As my original post was not directed toward you personally at all, when did this become about me arguing with you? I addressed the article. We got into this discussion because YOU addressed ME, not the other way around.

I suppose my original question about this still stands: why are you not still on a more restricted plan?

I had a serious problem with sugar. I took a restricted path to help break that problem. I never restricted myself with the intention of remaining so permanently. However it was pleasant to discover that many of the foods that once cried out to me, that felt "necessary", weren't at all. Restriction taught me that I can take, or leave, lots of foods that were once huge problems.

And that's a freedom I'm uber grateful for. I'm saying both ways can work.

SapiensPisces

It seems to me that you're just wanting to argue with me over some perceived bias that isn't there.

As my original post was not directed toward you personally at all, when did this become about me arguing with you? I addressed the article. We got into this discussion because YOU addressed ME, not the other way around.

You continued to make comments about arguments that were never presented in the article by the author nor anyone else. It comes across as defensive and argumentative.

I suppose my original question about this still stands: why are you not still on a more restricted plan?

I had a serious problem with sugar. I took a restricted path to help break that problem. I never restricted myself with the intention of remaining so permanently. However it was pleasant to discover that many of the foods that once cried out to me, that felt "necessary", weren't at all. Restriction taught me that I can take, or leave, lots of foods that were once huge problems.

And that's a freedom I'm uber grateful for. I'm saying both ways can work.

So, your position stems from a short-term restricted diet which helped improve your relationship with food, yes? If so, then why introduce the sugars back in at all if you were completely satisfied without them?

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Iwishyouwell

The article was CLEARLY addressing people who do not have metabolic problems or other health-related dietary restrictions. Nor was it aimed at people who are vegan, vegetarian, etc. due to lifestyle or personal choices.

So are vegetarians, vegans, or human beings who live in areas with limited flexibility all special snowflakes? If, as the author contends, "flexible dieting" is the only real way to lose or maintain weight, why are there so many hundreds of millions of exceptions to this rule?

I also find it a bit odd that you take so much issue with this article given that you are indeed practicing flexible dieting as demonstrated by your comment about how you enjoy cake and cookies yourself. If you feel like moderation and flexible dieting are paths to failure and no better than a restrictive diet long-term, why do still eat the foods you enjoy?

I've been on "restricted" eating plans in the past where I enjoyed what I ate and was not miserable. I sympathize with people who are on restricted path, either by necessity or choice, who all too often face endless suggestions that they must be miserable with their restrictions. This is incorrect.

I also take issue with the myth that "flexible dieting" and "moderation" lead to some significant increase in the chances of long term weight loss management, when the statistics don't back it up at all.

Also my personal path to weight loss does not include any calorie counting, weighing, or daily "moderation". So I'm likely not practicing "moderation" or flexibility in the way you assume.

Also note that I never said that moderation and flexible dieting are paths to "failure"', that's your interpretation. I'm merely challenging the idea that they offer significant increases for success, or that more restrictive diets are inherently bad for all, or even most.

where did the author say that flexible dieting is the only way to lose weight? I did not see the section that said "flexible dieting is the only way to to lose weight"…..

"Furthermore, strict clean eating just isn’t sustainable for most people psychologically; this is why you see so many people lose weight then go ahead and put it all back on, plus a few more pounds"

Which, inversely, suggests that "flexible dieting" and "moderation" have a proven track record of helping people elude these fates.

Except, well, there is ZERO scientific evidence that I've ever seen to back up this very popular, likely fairytale.

Ang108

There are people who legitimately do not "love" food, or who don't feel miserable without the presence of poptarts and cookies.

I get what the author is saying, but it is a bit disconcerting that so many people believe that everyone HAS to love modern, processed foods in order to enact or sustain weight loss. As if all human beings were born with an inalienable right to Oreos. There does seem to be a very interesting attitude on the MFP boards that suggest all people like the same foods, and anybody limiting for any reason is setting themselves up for failure.

I think you may have missed the point of the article.

The author isn't saying that you have to enjoy poptarts, cookies, oreos, or other "processed" foods. He's simply saying that there's no reason to eliminate them from your diet if you do enjoy them, and that insisting on a perfect diet 100% of the time can lead to a poor relationship with food and the people around you. Flexible dieting is about eating the food you like to eat but ensuring that you meet your nutritional goals, whatever they may be. For most people, this will require a large portion of their intake to be wholesome vitamin-rich foods anyway (if they truly are aiming to adhere to a healthy macro and micro nutrient-rich diet). The notion that flexible dieting = all processed/junk/whatever-you-want-to-call-it all the time is a misnomer often employed by people who oppose flexible dieting in order to attempt to discredit it.

You are right, he does not say that a person " has to " enjoy such foods. But he does say that there is " a serious problem " if one doesn't . We don't all dream of pizza, hamburgers, pop tarts and bacon . If I would have a serious cheat day I would eat lots of cauliflower and even more cheese sauce, or a huge bowl of strawberries with lots of full fat home made yogurt, or a huge shrimp cocktail accompanied by as much of the sparkly stuff I could get by with without getting completely drunk....because that is the food I like to eat.....always have and will continue to do so, just less of it to stay within my deficit.
Just as I am in favor of people defending their pop tarts and pizza rights, I wished they would do the same for me ( and people like me ) and not put me down for eating what I like just because it is different from the middle-of-the-road US diet . I have had a very nasty PM, because someone did not believe me that I have never in all my 66 years eaten a take-out pizza or a pop tart and it was impossible for that particular person to imagine that there are whole cultures where those things are of no importance. She suggested I should eat a few pop tarts and pizzas to stop being a ranting and deprived idiot......sighhhh.

SapiensPisces

You are right, he does not say that a person " has to " enjoy such foods. But he does say that there is " a serious problem " if one doesn't . We don't all dream of pizza, hamburgers, pop tarts and bacon . If I would have a serious cheat day I would eat lots of cauliflower and even more cheese sauce, or a huge bowl of strawberries with lots of full fat home made yogurt, or a huge shrimp cocktail accompanied by as much of the sparkly stuff I could get by with without getting completely drunk....because that is the food I like to eat.....always have and will continue to do so.

Then those are the food items you're enjoying as part of your flexible dieting. You certainly don't have to like pizza if you don't. I believe the author could've done a better job with emphasizing that the pizza and grandma's pie comments were examples not necessarily directives, but it seems clear that they were only examples to illustrate a point.

Just as I am in favor of people defending their pop tarts and pizza rights, I wished they would do the same for me ( and people like me ) and not put me down for eating what I like just because it is different from the middle-of-the-road US diet . I have had a very nasty PM, because someone did not believe me that I have never in all my 66 years eaten a take-out pizza or a pop tart and it was impossible for that particular person to imagine that there are whole cultures where those things are of no importance. She suggested I should eat a few pop tarts and pizzas to stop being a ranting and deprived idiot......sighhhh.

I think I can safely speak for most people on here, including those of us who LOVE pizza that for someone to do that to you is completely out of line and distasteful (pun intended-gotta lighten the mood a bit in here!) and is not something most rational sane flexible dieters would think is an okay thing to do. If it helps, I've had people dump me from their friends list and send PM's about how my lunchmeat sandwiches at lunch are going to make me die of bowel cancer and how I was doomed to fail, which was pretty hurtful as well. So, given your and my experience together, we can safely conclude that there are jerks on MFP, nothing more.

Ely82010

There are people who legitimately do not "love" food, or who don't feel miserable without the presence of poptarts and cookies.

I get what the author is saying, but it is a bit disconcerting that so many people believe that everyone HAS to love modern, processed foods in order to enact or sustain weight loss. As if all human beings were born with an inalienable right to Oreos. There does seem to be a very interesting attitude on the MFP boards that suggest all people like the same foods, and anybody limiting for any reason is setting themselves up for failure.

I wholly agree with this statement. I can live without sweets, pizza, burgers, etc. I am not depriving myself, I eat what I like and want but my wants and likes do not necessarily include what the majority of the people in MFP preach. I have been in maintenance for 3 years and I am not a failure, and I am not planning to be one anytime soon.

mustgetmuscles1

If you're going to post an article that suggests "clean eating" leads to unnecessary restrictions that hinder weight loss and management, please do back up the claims with studies and sound evidence that show "moderation" and "flexible dieting" lead to a significant increase in weight lost and maintained in the long run.

I'd love to read such studies, genuinely. So far they've eluded me.

I think you are fixating on this comment from the article:

Furthermore, strict clean eating just isn’t sustainable for most people psychologically; this is why you see so many people lose weight then go ahead and put it all back on, plus a few more pounds

Here is the reference the author gives for that statement:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0195666311005290

EDIT: this is only the abstract. I will try to find the full reference article.

Here's two more:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22329988
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24380882

Here is another article that mentions this.

http://www.wannabebig.com/diet-and-nutrition/the-dirt-on-clean-eating/

All-or-Nothing Dieting & Eating Disorder Risk

In 1997, a general physician named Steven Bratman coined the term orthorexia nervosa [21], which he defines as, “an unhealthy obsession with eating healthy food.” It reminds me of the counterproductive dietary perfectionism I’ve seen among many athletes, trainers, and coaches. One of the fundamental pitfalls of dichotomizing foods as good or bad, or clean or dirty, is that it can form a destructive relationship with food. This isn’t just an empty claim; it’s been seen in research. Smith and colleagues found that flexible dieting was associated with the absence of overeating, lower bodyweight, and the absence of depression and anxiety [22]. They also found that a strict all-or-nothing approach to dieting was associated with overeating and increased bodyweight. Similarly, Stewart and colleagues found that rigid dieting was associated with symptoms of an eating disorder, mood disturbances, and anxiety [23]. Flexible dieting was not highly correlated with these qualities. Although these are observational study designs with self-reported data, anyone who spends enough time among fitness buffs knows that these findings are not off the mark.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10336790

ndj1979

The article was CLEARLY addressing people who do not have metabolic problems or other health-related dietary restrictions. Nor was it aimed at people who are vegan, vegetarian, etc. due to lifestyle or personal choices.

So are vegetarians, vegans, or human beings who live in areas with limited flexibility all special snowflakes? If, as the author contends, "flexible dieting" is the only real way to lose or maintain weight, why are there so many hundreds of millions of exceptions to this rule?

I also find it a bit odd that you take so much issue with this article given that you are indeed practicing flexible dieting as demonstrated by your comment about how you enjoy cake and cookies yourself. If you feel like moderation and flexible dieting are paths to failure and no better than a restrictive diet long-term, why do still eat the foods you enjoy?

I've been on "restricted" eating plans in the past where I enjoyed what I ate and was not miserable. I sympathize with people who are on restricted path, either by necessity or choice, who all too often face endless suggestions that they must be miserable with their restrictions. This is incorrect.

I also take issue with the myth that "flexible dieting" and "moderation" lead to some significant increase in the chances of long term weight loss management, when the statistics don't back it up at all.

Also my personal path to weight loss does not include any calorie counting, weighing, or daily "moderation". So I'm likely not practicing "moderation" or flexibility in the way you assume.

Also note that I never said that moderation and flexible dieting are paths to "failure"', that's your interpretation. I'm merely challenging the idea that they offer significant increases for success, or that more restrictive diets are inherently bad for all, or even most.

where did the author say that flexible dieting is the only way to lose weight? I did not see the section that said "flexible dieting is the only way to to lose weight"…..

"Furthermore, strict clean eating just isn’t sustainable for most people psychologically; this is why you see so many people lose weight then go ahead and put it all back on, plus a few more pounds"

Which, inversely, suggests that "flexible dieting" and "moderation" have a proven track record of helping people elude these fates.

Except, well, there is ZERO scientific evidence that I've ever seen to back up this very popular, likely fairytale.

OK - so the author is saying that people try to eat clean, restrict themselves too much, and then end up binging and gaining the weight back…I have seen some posts from people suggesting they had this experience, so I do not think it is fairytale, I also do not think it is a common occurrence, but it is definitely a possible outcome.

That is a far cry from saying that you will not lose weight with clean eating.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Iwishyouwell

There are people who legitimately do not "love" food, or who don't feel miserable without the presence of poptarts and cookies.

I get what the author is saying, but it is a bit disconcerting that so many people believe that everyone HAS to love modern, processed foods in order to enact or sustain weight loss. As if all human beings were born with an inalienable right to Oreos. There does seem to be a very interesting attitude on the MFP boards that suggest all people like the same foods, and anybody limiting for any reason is setting themselves up for failure.

I think you may have missed the point of the article.

The author isn't saying that you have to enjoy poptarts, cookies, oreos, or other "processed" foods. He's simply saying that there's no reason to eliminate them from your diet if you do enjoy them, and that insisting on a perfect diet 100% of the time can lead to a poor relationship with food and the people around you. Flexible dieting is about eating the food you like to eat but ensuring that you meet your nutritional goals, whatever they may be. For most people, this will require a large portion of their intake to be wholesome vitamin-rich foods anyway (if they truly are aiming to adhere to a healthy macro and micro nutrient-rich diet). The notion that flexible dieting = all processed/junk/whatever-you-want-to-call-it all the time is a misnomer often employed by people who oppose flexible dieting in order to attempt to discredit it.

You are right, he does not say that a person " has to " enjoy such foods. But he does say that there is " a serious problem " if one doesn't . We don't all dream of pizza, hamburgers, pop tarts and bacon . If I would have a serious cheat day I would eat lots of cauliflower and even more cheese sauce, or a huge bowl of strawberries with lots of full fat home made yogurt, or a huge shrimp cocktail accompanied by as much of the sparkly stuff I could get by with without getting completely drunk....because that is the food I like to eat.....always have and will continue to do so, just less of it to stay within my deficit.
Just as I am in favor of people defending their pop tarts and pizza rights, I wished they would do the same for me ( and people like me ) and not put me down for eating what I like just because it is different from the middle-of-the-road US diet . I have had a very nasty PM, because someone did not believe me that I have never in all my 66 years eaten a take-out pizza or a pop tart and it was impossible for that particular person to imagine that there are whole cultures where those things are of no importance. She suggested I should eat a few pop tarts and pizzas to stop being a ranting and deprived idiot......sighhhh.

That's definitely been one of the most bizarre discoveries about this board. There are a lot of people who seem personally insulted if you don't let in certain kinds of food into your personal diet. It's very strange. I recall a woman posting a recipe for a cauliflower pizza she enjoyed and getting just ripped apart of even suggesting a pizza substitute, before getting comment after comment about how nobody should eat such a food, and why doesn't she just eat "real" pizza in moderation.

There is a definite undercurrent here where any kind of choice outside of "eat everything with moderation" is met with a kind of hostility from a good deal of posters.

SunofaBeach14

There are people who legitimately do not "love" food, or who don't feel miserable without the presence of poptarts and cookies.

I get what the author is saying, but it is a bit disconcerting that so many people believe that everyone HAS to love modern, processed foods in order to enact or sustain weight loss. As if all human beings were born with an inalienable right to Oreos. There does seem to be a very interesting attitude on the MFP boards that suggest all people like the same foods, and anybody limiting for any reason is setting themselves up for failure.

I think you may have missed the point of the article.

The author isn't saying that you have to enjoy poptarts, cookies, oreos, or other "processed" foods. He's simply saying that there's no reason to eliminate them from your diet if you do enjoy them, and that insisting on a perfect diet 100% of the time can lead to a poor relationship with food and the people around you. Flexible dieting is about eating the food you like to eat but ensuring that you meet your nutritional goals, whatever they may be. For most people, this will require a large portion of their intake to be wholesome vitamin-rich foods anyway (if they truly are aiming to adhere to a healthy macro and micro nutrient-rich diet). The notion that flexible dieting = all processed/junk/whatever-you-want-to-call-it all the time is a misnomer often employed by people who oppose flexible dieting in order to attempt to discredit it.

You are right, he does not say that a person " has to " enjoy such foods. But he does say that there is " a serious problem " if one doesn't . We don't all dream of pizza, hamburgers, pop tarts and bacon . If I would have a serious cheat day I would eat lots of cauliflower and even more cheese sauce, or a huge bowl of strawberries with lots of full fat home made yogurt, or a huge shrimp cocktail accompanied by as much of the sparkly stuff I could get by with without getting completely drunk....because that is the food I like to eat.....always have and will continue to do so, just less of it to stay within my deficit.
Just as I am in favor of people defending their pop tarts and pizza rights, I wished they would do the same for me ( and people like me ) and not put me down for eating what I like just because it is different from the middle-of-the-road US diet . I have had a very nasty PM, because someone did not believe me that I have never in all my 66 years eaten a take-out pizza or a pop tart and it was impossible for that particular person to imagine that there are whole cultures where those things are of no importance. She suggested I should eat a few pop tarts and pizzas to stop being a ranting and deprived idiot......sighhhh.

That's definitely been one of the most bizarre discoveries about this board. There are a lot of people who seem personally insulted if you don't let in certain kinds of food into your personal diet. It's very strange. I recall a woman posting a recipe for a cauliflower pizza she enjoyed and getting just ripped apart of even suggesting a pizza substitute, before getting comment after comment about how nobody should eat such a food, and why doesn't she just eat "real" pizza in moderation.

There is a definite undercurrent here where any kind of choice outside of "eat everything with moderation" is met with a kind of hostility from a good deal of posters.

You seem to have trouble separating the fundamentals of an eating plan from the specific tastes and preferences of its adherents. That's your analysis fail, not a problem with the eating plan.

DamePiglet

With respect to the issue Iwishyouwell takes with this, I would just like to point out that, clean eaters who do not have a taste for sweets, treats or less-than-wholesome snacks likely wouldn't have a weight issue. I would imagine it's exceedingly difficult to gain significant amounts of excess weight eating "clean"- if you're truly eating clean. Ergo, if one is overweight and has made the lifestyle change of eating clean; it stands to reason they do enjoy "dirty" foods, be they processed things like poptarts, or something homemade like grandma's apple pie. And if they do enjoy these things, this article is directed towards them; to explain that they don't have to give up occasional treats (like during the holidays or a special event) in order to be healthy and lose weight.

Yes, a fair and sound point.

Just pointing out the exceptions. My father, for example, was naturally a "clean eater". Not a dieter at all, but he wasn't a big fan of sweets or lots of processed food. He did, however, develop a serious weight problem in his middle age thanks to drinking far too much beer. Sigh. If it's not one thing, it's another.

Calls to mind an adage... there's always an exception that makes the rule.

Your father was not a clean eater. He over- indulged in alcohol.

DamePiglet

There are people who legitimately do not "love" food, or who don't feel miserable without the presence of poptarts and cookies.

I get what the author is saying, but it is a bit disconcerting that so many people believe that everyone HAS to love modern, processed foods in order to enact or sustain weight loss. As if all human beings were born with an inalienable right to Oreos. There does seem to be a very interesting attitude on the MFP boards that suggest all people like the same foods, and anybody limiting for any reason is setting themselves up for failure.

I think you may have missed the point of the article.

The author isn't saying that you have to enjoy poptarts, cookies, oreos, or other "processed" foods. He's simply saying that there's no reason to eliminate them from your diet if you do enjoy them, and that insisting on a perfect diet 100% of the time can lead to a poor relationship with food and the people around you. Flexible dieting is about eating the food you like to eat but ensuring that you meet your nutritional goals, whatever they may be. For most people, this will require a large portion of their intake to be wholesome vitamin-rich foods anyway (if they truly are aiming to adhere to a healthy macro and micro nutrient-rich diet). The notion that flexible dieting = all processed/junk/whatever-you-want-to-call-it all the time is a misnomer often employed by people who oppose flexible dieting in order to attempt to discredit it.

You are right, he does not say that a person " has to " enjoy such foods. But he does say that there is " a serious problem " if one doesn't . We don't all dream of pizza, hamburgers, pop tarts and bacon . If I would have a serious cheat day I would eat lots of cauliflower and even more cheese sauce, or a huge bowl of strawberries with lots of full fat home made yogurt, or a huge shrimp cocktail accompanied by as much of the sparkly stuff I could get by with without getting completely drunk....because that is the food I like to eat.....always have and will continue to do so, just less of it to stay within my deficit.
Just as I am in favor of people defending their pop tarts and pizza rights, I wished they would do the same for me ( and people like me ) and not put me down for eating what I like just because it is different from the middle-of-the-road US diet . I have had a very nasty PM, because someone did not believe me that I have never in all my 66 years eaten a take-out pizza or a pop tart and it was impossible for that particular person to imagine that there are whole cultures where those things are of no importance. She suggested I should eat a few pop tarts and pizzas to stop being a ranting and deprived idiot......sighhhh.

That's definitely been one of the most bizarre discoveries about this board. There are a lot of people who seem personally insulted if you don't let in certain kinds of food into your personal diet. It's very strange. I recall a woman posting a recipe for a cauliflower pizza she enjoyed and getting just ripped apart of even suggesting a pizza substitute, before getting comment after comment about how nobody should eat such a food, and why doesn't she just eat "real" pizza in moderation.

There is a definite undercurrent here where any kind of choice outside of "eat everything with moderation" is met with a kind of hostility from a good deal of posters.

The woman in question was counting calories and created a pizza that had more calories than its typically grain-based counterpart.
Silly is silly.

Iwishyouwell

The article was CLEARLY addressing people who do not have metabolic problems or other health-related dietary restrictions. Nor was it aimed at people who are vegan, vegetarian, etc. due to lifestyle or personal choices.

So are vegetarians, vegans, or human beings who live in areas with limited flexibility all special snowflakes? If, as the author contends, "flexible dieting" is the only real way to lose or maintain weight, why are there so many hundreds of millions of exceptions to this rule?

I also find it a bit odd that you take so much issue with this article given that you are indeed practicing flexible dieting as demonstrated by your comment about how you enjoy cake and cookies yourself. If you feel like moderation and flexible dieting are paths to failure and no better than a restrictive diet long-term, why do still eat the foods you enjoy?

I've been on "restricted" eating plans in the past where I enjoyed what I ate and was not miserable. I sympathize with people who are on restricted path, either by necessity or choice, who all too often face endless suggestions that they must be miserable with their restrictions. This is incorrect.

I also take issue with the myth that "flexible dieting" and "moderation" lead to some significant increase in the chances of long term weight loss management, when the statistics don't back it up at all.

Also my personal path to weight loss does not include any calorie counting, weighing, or daily "moderation". So I'm likely not practicing "moderation" or flexibility in the way you assume.

Also note that I never said that moderation and flexible dieting are paths to "failure"', that's your interpretation. I'm merely challenging the idea that they offer significant increases for success, or that more restrictive diets are inherently bad for all, or even most.

where did the author say that flexible dieting is the only way to lose weight? I did not see the section that said "flexible dieting is the only way to to lose weight"…..

"Furthermore, strict clean eating just isn’t sustainable for most people psychologically; this is why you see so many people lose weight then go ahead and put it all back on, plus a few more pounds"

Which, inversely, suggests that "flexible dieting" and "moderation" have a proven track record of helping people elude these fates.

Except, well, there is ZERO scientific evidence that I've ever seen to back up this very popular, likely fairytale.

Why? Because the scary truth is the majority gain it all back?

Yes. That is true of people who lose weight practicing moderation. It is. The majority will gain it back.

It's also true of every single other diet there is. That's the truth. People who lose weight usually gain it back.

Now do you want to find numbers stating the percentages based on which diet they followed? That could be interesting, but I'd suggest you don't waste your time. Those numbers will be so manipulated and biased as to be meaningless. Most will be flat out scams trying to promote some scam diet.

But people do lose weight and keep it off. They really do. Maybe not all of us. But some of us. And the ones we see doing it time and time again? They're the ones who learned how to make a healthy change in their lives without completely eliminating whole sections of foods from their diets.

NO diet plan has a proven track record of getting weight off and keeping it off for a majority of people. But I'd wager that moderation is the one that works best. Hell most people can't even reach goal weight on a restrictive diet. They crack, eat a pizza, think they've ruined everything, and give up. Those threads are posted here every single day.

I really enjoyed this post, and you actually encapsulated my point pretty well.

I'd also like to note that before I became an IFer, however, the years that I did maintain weight loss actually was never on the back of moderation, but on the back of carb restriction. In the past "moderation" just kept my cravings open and always eventually led to massive failure. Prior to implementing regularly fasting intervals into my life, which is the best way for me to enjoy eating while still getting a deficit, restrictive eating was the only success I had at weight maintenance for several years.

Even today, my definition of "moderation" is more "eat as much sweets as I like, but only occasionally" than any kind of daily moderation. Most of my base diet is made up of so called "clean" foods, and that's because I enjoy eating that way.

Iwishyouwell

With respect to the issue Iwishyouwell takes with this, I would just like to point out that, clean eaters who do not have a taste for sweets, treats or less-than-wholesome snacks likely wouldn't have a weight issue. I would imagine it's exceedingly difficult to gain significant amounts of excess weight eating "clean"- if you're truly eating clean. Ergo, if one is overweight and has made the lifestyle change of eating clean; it stands to reason they do enjoy "dirty" foods, be they processed things like poptarts, or something homemade like grandma's apple pie. And if they do enjoy these things, this article is directed towards them; to explain that they don't have to give up occasional treats (like during the holidays or a special event) in order to be healthy and lose weight.

Yes, a fair and sound point.

Just pointing out the exceptions. My father, for example, was naturally a "clean eater". Not a dieter at all, but he wasn't a big fan of sweets or lots of processed food. He did, however, develop a serious weight problem in his middle age thanks to drinking far too much beer. Sigh. If it's not one thing, it's another.

Calls to mind an adage... there's always an exception that makes the rule.

Your father was not a clean eater. He over- indulged in alcohol.

Hence the quotation marks.

ndj1979

There are people who legitimately do not "love" food, or who don't feel miserable without the presence of poptarts and cookies.

I get what the author is saying, but it is a bit disconcerting that so many people believe that everyone HAS to love modern, processed foods in order to enact or sustain weight loss. As if all human beings were born with an inalienable right to Oreos. There does seem to be a very interesting attitude on the MFP boards that suggest all people like the same foods, and anybody limiting for any reason is setting themselves up for failure.

I think you may have missed the point of the article.

The author isn't saying that you have to enjoy poptarts, cookies, oreos, or other "processed" foods. He's simply saying that there's no reason to eliminate them from your diet if you do enjoy them, and that insisting on a perfect diet 100% of the time can lead to a poor relationship with food and the people around you. Flexible dieting is about eating the food you like to eat but ensuring that you meet your nutritional goals, whatever they may be. For most people, this will require a large portion of their intake to be wholesome vitamin-rich foods anyway (if they truly are aiming to adhere to a healthy macro and micro nutrient-rich diet). The notion that flexible dieting = all processed/junk/whatever-you-want-to-call-it all the time is a misnomer often employed by people who oppose flexible dieting in order to attempt to discredit it.

You are right, he does not say that a person " has to " enjoy such foods. But he does say that there is " a serious problem " if one doesn't . We don't all dream of pizza, hamburgers, pop tarts and bacon . If I would have a serious cheat day I would eat lots of cauliflower and even more cheese sauce, or a huge bowl of strawberries with lots of full fat home made yogurt, or a huge shrimp cocktail accompanied by as much of the sparkly stuff I could get by with without getting completely drunk....because that is the food I like to eat.....always have and will continue to do so, just less of it to stay within my deficit.
Just as I am in favor of people defending their pop tarts and pizza rights, I wished they would do the same for me ( and people like me ) and not put me down for eating what I like just because it is different from the middle-of-the-road US diet . I have had a very nasty PM, because someone did not believe me that I have never in all my 66 years eaten a take-out pizza or a pop tart and it was impossible for that particular person to imagine that there are whole cultures where those things are of no importance. She suggested I should eat a few pop tarts and pizzas to stop being a ranting and deprived idiot......sighhhh.

That's definitely been one of the most bizarre discoveries about this board. There are a lot of people who seem personally insulted if you don't let in certain kinds of food into your personal diet. It's very strange. I recall a woman posting a recipe for a cauliflower pizza she enjoyed and getting just ripped apart of even suggesting a pizza substitute, before getting comment after comment about how nobody should eat such a food, and why doesn't she just eat "real" pizza in moderation.

There is a definite undercurrent here where any kind of choice outside of "eat everything with moderation" is met with a kind of hostility from a good deal of posters.

why do you have to substitute cauliflower for pizza crust? You can make a homemade one for very little calories…I made one two weeks ago for a total of about 1200 calories or 200 a slice….

Iwishyouwell

There are people who legitimately do not "love" food, or who don't feel miserable without the presence of poptarts and cookies.

I get what the author is saying, but it is a bit disconcerting that so many people believe that everyone HAS to love modern, processed foods in order to enact or sustain weight loss. As if all human beings were born with an inalienable right to Oreos. There does seem to be a very interesting attitude on the MFP boards that suggest all people like the same foods, and anybody limiting for any reason is setting themselves up for failure.

I think you may have missed the point of the article.

The author isn't saying that you have to enjoy poptarts, cookies, oreos, or other "processed" foods. He's simply saying that there's no reason to eliminate them from your diet if you do enjoy them, and that insisting on a perfect diet 100% of the time can lead to a poor relationship with food and the people around you. Flexible dieting is about eating the food you like to eat but ensuring that you meet your nutritional goals, whatever they may be. For most people, this will require a large portion of their intake to be wholesome vitamin-rich foods anyway (if they truly are aiming to adhere to a healthy macro and micro nutrient-rich diet). The notion that flexible dieting = all processed/junk/whatever-you-want-to-call-it all the time is a misnomer often employed by people who oppose flexible dieting in order to attempt to discredit it.

You are right, he does not say that a person " has to " enjoy such foods. But he does say that there is " a serious problem " if one doesn't . We don't all dream of pizza, hamburgers, pop tarts and bacon . If I would have a serious cheat day I would eat lots of cauliflower and even more cheese sauce, or a huge bowl of strawberries with lots of full fat home made yogurt, or a huge shrimp cocktail accompanied by as much of the sparkly stuff I could get by with without getting completely drunk....because that is the food I like to eat.....always have and will continue to do so, just less of it to stay within my deficit.
Just as I am in favor of people defending their pop tarts and pizza rights, I wished they would do the same for me ( and people like me ) and not put me down for eating what I like just because it is different from the middle-of-the-road US diet . I have had a very nasty PM, because someone did not believe me that I have never in all my 66 years eaten a take-out pizza or a pop tart and it was impossible for that particular person to imagine that there are whole cultures where those things are of no importance. She suggested I should eat a few pop tarts and pizzas to stop being a ranting and deprived idiot......sighhhh.

That's definitely been one of the most bizarre discoveries about this board. There are a lot of people who seem personally insulted if you don't let in certain kinds of food into your personal diet. It's very strange. I recall a woman posting a recipe for a cauliflower pizza she enjoyed and getting just ripped apart of even suggesting a pizza substitute, before getting comment after comment about how nobody should eat such a food, and why doesn't she just eat "real" pizza in moderation.

There is a definite undercurrent here where any kind of choice outside of "eat everything with moderation" is met with a kind of hostility from a good deal of posters.

why do you have to substitute cauliflower for pizza crust? You can make a homemade one for very little calories…I made one two weeks ago for a total of about 1200 calories or 200 a slice….

Sure you can. But why not IF it's something you enjoy?

There were actually people who couldn't fathom the idea that a cauliflower pizza substitute could actually be, gasp, enjoyable in and of itself.

Your response highlights the point very well actually.

DamePiglet

With respect to the issue Iwishyouwell takes with this, I would just like to point out that, clean eaters who do not have a taste for sweets, treats or less-than-wholesome snacks likely wouldn't have a weight issue. I would imagine it's exceedingly difficult to gain significant amounts of excess weight eating "clean"- if you're truly eating clean. Ergo, if one is overweight and has made the lifestyle change of eating clean; it stands to reason they do enjoy "dirty" foods, be they processed things like poptarts, or something homemade like grandma's apple pie. And if they do enjoy these things, this article is directed towards them; to explain that they don't have to give up occasional treats (like during the holidays or a special event) in order to be healthy and lose weight.

Yes, a fair and sound point.

Just pointing out the exceptions. My father, for example, was naturally a "clean eater". Not a dieter at all, but he wasn't a big fan of sweets or lots of processed food. He did, however, develop a serious weight problem in his middle age thanks to drinking far too much beer. Sigh. If it's not one thing, it's another.

Calls to mind an adage... there's always an exception that makes the rule.

Your father was not a clean eater. He over- indulged in alcohol.

Hence the quotation marks.

Because there really is no "clean", is there? One person's "clean" is another's IIFYM / "moderation."

Like vegetarians or vegans, you made your choice. You can choose to continue eating that way and be contented with it or choose another way.

Although I cannot do "high impact" cardio exercises, like running, etc, I don't go into cardio theads and butthurt about it.

Your posts sound like you're butthurt.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

DamePiglet

There are people who legitimately do not "love" food, or who don't feel miserable without the presence of poptarts and cookies.

I get what the author is saying, but it is a bit disconcerting that so many people believe that everyone HAS to love modern, processed foods in order to enact or sustain weight loss. As if all human beings were born with an inalienable right to Oreos. There does seem to be a very interesting attitude on the MFP boards that suggest all people like the same foods, and anybody limiting for any reason is setting themselves up for failure.

I think you may have missed the point of the article.

The author isn't saying that you have to enjoy poptarts, cookies, oreos, or other "processed" foods. He's simply saying that there's no reason to eliminate them from your diet if you do enjoy them, and that insisting on a perfect diet 100% of the time can lead to a poor relationship with food and the people around you. Flexible dieting is about eating the food you like to eat but ensuring that you meet your nutritional goals, whatever they may be. For most people, this will require a large portion of their intake to be wholesome vitamin-rich foods anyway (if they truly are aiming to adhere to a healthy macro and micro nutrient-rich diet). The notion that flexible dieting = all processed/junk/whatever-you-want-to-call-it all the time is a misnomer often employed by people who oppose flexible dieting in order to attempt to discredit it.

You are right, he does not say that a person " has to " enjoy such foods. But he does say that there is " a serious problem " if one doesn't . We don't all dream of pizza, hamburgers, pop tarts and bacon . If I would have a serious cheat day I would eat lots of cauliflower and even more cheese sauce, or a huge bowl of strawberries with lots of full fat home made yogurt, or a huge shrimp cocktail accompanied by as much of the sparkly stuff I could get by with without getting completely drunk....because that is the food I like to eat.....always have and will continue to do so, just less of it to stay within my deficit.
Just as I am in favor of people defending their pop tarts and pizza rights, I wished they would do the same for me ( and people like me ) and not put me down for eating what I like just because it is different from the middle-of-the-road US diet . I have had a very nasty PM, because someone did not believe me that I have never in all my 66 years eaten a take-out pizza or a pop tart and it was impossible for that particular person to imagine that there are whole cultures where those things are of no importance. She suggested I should eat a few pop tarts and pizzas to stop being a ranting and deprived idiot......sighhhh.

That's definitely been one of the most bizarre discoveries about this board. There are a lot of people who seem personally insulted if you don't let in certain kinds of food into your personal diet. It's very strange. I recall a woman posting a recipe for a cauliflower pizza she enjoyed and getting just ripped apart of even suggesting a pizza substitute, before getting comment after comment about how nobody should eat such a food, and why doesn't she just eat "real" pizza in moderation.

There is a definite undercurrent here where any kind of choice outside of "eat everything with moderation" is met with a kind of hostility from a good deal of posters.

why do you have to substitute cauliflower for pizza crust? You can make a homemade one for very little calories…I made one two weeks ago for a total of about 1200 calories or 200 a slice….

Sure you can. But why not IF it's something you enjoy?

There were actually people who couldn't fathom the idea that a cauliflower pizza substitute could actually be, gasp, enjoyable in and of itself.

Your response highlights the point very well actually.

Then it becomes a casserole that she enjoys, not pizza.

If you had read the responses, you'd have seen that.

ndj1979

There are people who legitimately do not "love" food, or who don't feel miserable without the presence of poptarts and cookies.

I get what the author is saying, but it is a bit disconcerting that so many people believe that everyone HAS to love modern, processed foods in order to enact or sustain weight loss. As if all human beings were born with an inalienable right to Oreos. There does seem to be a very interesting attitude on the MFP boards that suggest all people like the same foods, and anybody limiting for any reason is setting themselves up for failure.

I think you may have missed the point of the article.

The author isn't saying that you have to enjoy poptarts, cookies, oreos, or other "processed" foods. He's simply saying that there's no reason to eliminate them from your diet if you do enjoy them, and that insisting on a perfect diet 100% of the time can lead to a poor relationship with food and the people around you. Flexible dieting is about eating the food you like to eat but ensuring that you meet your nutritional goals, whatever they may be. For most people, this will require a large portion of their intake to be wholesome vitamin-rich foods anyway (if they truly are aiming to adhere to a healthy macro and micro nutrient-rich diet). The notion that flexible dieting = all processed/junk/whatever-you-want-to-call-it all the time is a misnomer often employed by people who oppose flexible dieting in order to attempt to discredit it.

You are right, he does not say that a person " has to " enjoy such foods. But he does say that there is " a serious problem " if one doesn't . We don't all dream of pizza, hamburgers, pop tarts and bacon . If I would have a serious cheat day I would eat lots of cauliflower and even more cheese sauce, or a huge bowl of strawberries with lots of full fat home made yogurt, or a huge shrimp cocktail accompanied by as much of the sparkly stuff I could get by with without getting completely drunk....because that is the food I like to eat.....always have and will continue to do so, just less of it to stay within my deficit.
Just as I am in favor of people defending their pop tarts and pizza rights, I wished they would do the same for me ( and people like me ) and not put me down for eating what I like just because it is different from the middle-of-the-road US diet . I have had a very nasty PM, because someone did not believe me that I have never in all my 66 years eaten a take-out pizza or a pop tart and it was impossible for that particular person to imagine that there are whole cultures where those things are of no importance. She suggested I should eat a few pop tarts and pizzas to stop being a ranting and deprived idiot......sighhhh.

That's definitely been one of the most bizarre discoveries about this board. There are a lot of people who seem personally insulted if you don't let in certain kinds of food into your personal diet. It's very strange. I recall a woman posting a recipe for a cauliflower pizza she enjoyed and getting just ripped apart of even suggesting a pizza substitute, before getting comment after comment about how nobody should eat such a food, and why doesn't she just eat "real" pizza in moderation.

There is a definite undercurrent here where any kind of choice outside of "eat everything with moderation" is met with a kind of hostility from a good deal of posters.

why do you have to substitute cauliflower for pizza crust? You can make a homemade one for very little calories…I made one two weeks ago for a total of about 1200 calories or 200 a slice….

Sure you can. But why not IF it's something you enjoy?

There were actually people who couldn't fathom the idea that a cauliflower pizza substitute could actually be, gasp, enjoyable in and of itself.

Your response highlights the point very well actually.

I really could care less..

My only point is you can make a hommedade pizza with about the same calories as a cauliflower one ….the whole pint of that thread - I posted in it - was to make a pizza substitute with less calories then say dominos, papa johns, etc...

I like good food, and cauliflower pizza is not good food…but that is just me...

Zumaria1

I read the entire article at the link you provided, and its interesting. A few things I would like to add, is that many people who say they are "clean eaters" are generally trying to eat healthy most of the time, and allow themselves treats as well from time to time. I think the biggest difference is that people do not like the label "clean eating". I notice that most people are eating the same things, those who claim to be "dirty eaters" and those who claim to be "clean eaters".. There are extreme on both sides, those who eat whole boxes of cookies (how that falls under IIFYM I cannot see), and those who think everything must be organic and farmed themselves. What I've noticed is that most fall somewhere in the middle, where the majority of calories is coming from nutritious foods, and treats sometimes.

I disagree strongly with the point that insulin and the foods on the hypoglycemic index do not matter. Fibrous foods that contain sugar cause less of a spike in your blood sugar than say a can of soda. Since the article is geared toward those that lift heavy, maybe in that context the author meant it doesn't matter, but it surely can in the long run, especially amongst sedentary populations, as the huge spikes in insulin from sugary, low fiber foods are thought to be the contributing factor to diabetes.

Iwishyouwell

With respect to the issue Iwishyouwell takes with this, I would just like to point out that, clean eaters who do not have a taste for sweets, treats or less-than-wholesome snacks likely wouldn't have a weight issue. I would imagine it's exceedingly difficult to gain significant amounts of excess weight eating "clean"- if you're truly eating clean. Ergo, if one is overweight and has made the lifestyle change of eating clean; it stands to reason they do enjoy "dirty" foods, be they processed things like poptarts, or something homemade like grandma's apple pie. And if they do enjoy these things, this article is directed towards them; to explain that they don't have to give up occasional treats (like during the holidays or a special event) in order to be healthy and lose weight.

Yes, a fair and sound point.

Just pointing out the exceptions. My father, for example, was naturally a "clean eater". Not a dieter at all, but he wasn't a big fan of sweets or lots of processed food. He did, however, develop a serious weight problem in his middle age thanks to drinking far too much beer. Sigh. If it's not one thing, it's another.

Calls to mind an adage... there's always an exception that makes the rule.

Your father was not a clean eater. He over- indulged in alcohol.

Hence the quotation marks.

Because there really is no "clean", is there? One person's "clean" is another's IIFYM / "moderation."

Like vegetarians or vegans, you made your choice. You can choose to continue eating that way and be contented with it or choose another way.

Although I cannot do "high impact" cardio exercises, like running, etc, I don't go into cardio theads and butthurt about it.

Your posts sound like you're butthurt.

Interesting.

I have lost a 130lbs, am a few weeks from being the smallest I have ever been in my entire adult life, have no restrictions on my eating, don't moralize my food choices with notions like like "guilt" and "cheating", don't need to count calories to lose or maintain, and generally have the best relationship with food now than I have had my entire life.

So please, pray tell, what exactly am I "butthurt" about?

kgeyser

There are people who legitimately do not "love" food, or who don't feel miserable without the presence of poptarts and cookies.

I get what the author is saying, but it is a bit disconcerting that so many people believe that everyone HAS to love modern, processed foods in order to enact or sustain weight loss. As if all human beings were born with an inalienable right to Oreos. There does seem to be a very interesting attitude on the MFP boards that suggest all people like the same foods, and anybody limiting for any reason is setting themselves up for failure.

I think you may have missed the point of the article.

The author isn't saying that you have to enjoy poptarts, cookies, oreos, or other "processed" foods. He's simply saying that there's no reason to eliminate them from your diet if you do enjoy them, and that insisting on a perfect diet 100% of the time can lead to a poor relationship with food and the people around you. Flexible dieting is about eating the food you like to eat but ensuring that you meet your nutritional goals, whatever they may be. For most people, this will require a large portion of their intake to be wholesome vitamin-rich foods anyway (if they truly are aiming to adhere to a healthy macro and micro nutrient-rich diet). The notion that flexible dieting = all processed/junk/whatever-you-want-to-call-it all the time is a misnomer often employed by people who oppose flexible dieting in order to attempt to discredit it.

You are right, he does not say that a person " has to " enjoy such foods. But he does say that there is " a serious problem " if one doesn't . We don't all dream of pizza, hamburgers, pop tarts and bacon . If I would have a serious cheat day I would eat lots of cauliflower and even more cheese sauce, or a huge bowl of strawberries with lots of full fat home made yogurt, or a huge shrimp cocktail accompanied by as much of the sparkly stuff I could get by with without getting completely drunk....because that is the food I like to eat.....always have and will continue to do so, just less of it to stay within my deficit.
Just as I am in favor of people defending their pop tarts and pizza rights, I wished they would do the same for me ( and people like me ) and not put me down for eating what I like just because it is different from the middle-of-the-road US diet . I have had a very nasty PM, because someone did not believe me that I have never in all my 66 years eaten a take-out pizza or a pop tart and it was impossible for that particular person to imagine that there are whole cultures where those things are of no importance. She suggested I should eat a few pop tarts and pizzas to stop being a ranting and deprived idiot......sighhhh.

That's definitely been one of the most bizarre discoveries about this board. There are a lot of people who seem personally insulted if you don't let in certain kinds of food into your personal diet. It's very strange. I recall a woman posting a recipe for a cauliflower pizza she enjoyed and getting just ripped apart of even suggesting a pizza substitute, before getting comment after comment about how nobody should eat such a food, and why doesn't she just eat "real" pizza in moderation.

There is a definite undercurrent here where any kind of choice outside of "eat everything with moderation" is met with a kind of hostility from a good deal of posters.

I don't think people are personally insulted that someone doesn't include certain foods in their diet, as everyone has their food preferences and no one actually eats "all" the foods. I think people get their backs up when someone implies that they somehow "need" to eat a certain food, or that they eat that food frequently, just because they haven't eliminated it from their diet, and therefore are less healthy than someone who has.

I don't see "everything in moderation" as being the battle cry of the junk and processed food movement, rather just a way of saying that the food you tend to go overboard on - whether cake or cauliflower - doesn't need to be eliminated in order for you to be successful in your weight loss endeavor, and that there is value in learning to be able to include that food without having to worry that it's going to turn into a binge.

ndj1979

With respect to the issue Iwishyouwell takes with this, I would just like to point out that, clean eaters who do not have a taste for sweets, treats or less-than-wholesome snacks likely wouldn't have a weight issue. I would imagine it's exceedingly difficult to gain significant amounts of excess weight eating "clean"- if you're truly eating clean. Ergo, if one is overweight and has made the lifestyle change of eating clean; it stands to reason they do enjoy "dirty" foods, be they processed things like poptarts, or something homemade like grandma's apple pie. And if they do enjoy these things, this article is directed towards them; to explain that they don't have to give up occasional treats (like during the holidays or a special event) in order to be healthy and lose weight.

Yes, a fair and sound point.

Just pointing out the exceptions. My father, for example, was naturally a "clean eater". Not a dieter at all, but he wasn't a big fan of sweets or lots of processed food. He did, however, develop a serious weight problem in his middle age thanks to drinking far too much beer. Sigh. If it's not one thing, it's another.

Calls to mind an adage... there's always an exception that makes the rule.

Your father was not a clean eater. He over- indulged in alcohol.

Hence the quotation marks.

Because there really is no "clean", is there? One person's "clean" is another's IIFYM / "moderation."

Like vegetarians or vegans, you made your choice. You can choose to continue eating that way and be contented with it or choose another way.

Although I cannot do "high impact" cardio exercises, like running, etc, I don't go into cardio theads and butthurt about it.

Your posts sound like you're butthurt.

Interesting.

I have lost a 130lbs, am a few weeks from being the smallest I have ever been in my entire adult life, have no restrictions on my eating, don't moralize my food choices with notions like like "guilt" and "cheating", don't need to count calories to lose or maintain, and generally have the best relationship with food now than I have had my entire life.

So please, pray tell, what exactly am I "butthurt" about?

then pray tell, why are you so pissed off?

Iwishyouwell

With respect to the issue Iwishyouwell takes with this, I would just like to point out that, clean eaters who do not have a taste for sweets, treats or less-than-wholesome snacks likely wouldn't have a weight issue. I would imagine it's exceedingly difficult to gain significant amounts of excess weight eating "clean"- if you're truly eating clean. Ergo, if one is overweight and has made the lifestyle change of eating clean; it stands to reason they do enjoy "dirty" foods, be they processed things like poptarts, or something homemade like grandma's apple pie. And if they do enjoy these things, this article is directed towards them; to explain that they don't have to give up occasional treats (like during the holidays or a special event) in order to be healthy and lose weight.

Yes, a fair and sound point.

Just pointing out the exceptions. My father, for example, was naturally a "clean eater". Not a dieter at all, but he wasn't a big fan of sweets or lots of processed food. He did, however, develop a serious weight problem in his middle age thanks to drinking far too much beer. Sigh. If it's not one thing, it's another.

Calls to mind an adage... there's always an exception that makes the rule.

Your father was not a clean eater. He over- indulged in alcohol.

Hence the quotation marks.

Because there really is no "clean", is there? One person's "clean" is another's IIFYM / "moderation."

Like vegetarians or vegans, you made your choice. You can choose to continue eating that way and be contented with it or choose another way.

Although I cannot do "high impact" cardio exercises, like running, etc, I don't go into cardio theads and butthurt about it.

Your posts sound like you're butthurt.

Interesting.

I have lost a 130lbs, am a few weeks from being the smallest I have ever been in my entire adult life, have no restrictions on my eating, don't moralize my food choices with notions like like "guilt" and "cheating", don't need to count calories to lose or maintain, and generally have the best relationship with food now than I have had my entire life.

So please, pray tell, what exactly am I "butthurt" about?

then pray tell, why are you so pissed off?

I'm pissed off?

That's news to me.

I've learned this evening that I'm "butthurt" over losing 130lbs and now I'm "pissed off".

These revealing insights into my person are proving so educational. I almost feel like I should be paying your people for this insighful interweb psychoanalysis.