WHO: Daily sugar intake 'should be halved'

ndj1979

Ummmmm.......no, it's not that rare. There are plenty of type 2 diabetics that are not obese.

Do you have a number/percentage to quantify 'plenty'?

you know, like lots

:laugh: :laugh:

I'm really curious though. Is it plenty as is "A lot of people, but still a small percentage of those with type 2?', because that would still be rare, or plenty as in "A decent percentage of people with type 2?", because those are two distinctly different implications.

Beyond that I'm curious about how many of those not obese people would qualify as overweight and, beyond that, of those who are considered 'normal weight' how many suffer from a high body fat percentage/Normal Weight Obesity, which carries the same risks as typical obesity.

Considering 1 out of 3 type 2 diabetics are undiagnosed, it's likely there are many "normal" weight people that are missed. Obese people automatically get screened for it.

I'm afraid I can't consider 'what if' scenerios as valid information when I'm looking for actual numbers and information.

And Non-obese doesn't mean normal weight; there is still the overweight but not obese category being overlooked.

easy on injecting logic into this thread…you should know better…!

SunofaBeach14

I'm actually not hurting my own argument. What you are talking about is the CONCENTRATED FORM of fructose. I'm referring to the natural form of fructose found in fruits.

And how exactly are they processed by your body differently?

I already posted the answer to that question. Not explaining it again.

What about the fact that fructose is almost always found with glucose, even in fruit? That negates your entire argument about fruit being superior because of the fructose present and the fact that it does not illicit an insulin response due to the claimed absence of glucose.

Fructose in both the commercial and natural domain has an equal amount of glucose attached to it. You’d have to go out of your way to obtain fructose without the accompanying glucose. Sucrose is half fructose and half glucose. High-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) is nearly identical to sucrose in structure and function. Here’s the point I’m getting at: contrary to Lustig’s contentions, both of these compounds have substantial research showing not just their ability to elicit an insulin response, but also their suppressive effect on appetite

Not once did I say fruit contains no glucose. The amount of glucose found in fruit is so minute. It all depends on its glycemic index. You're still not getting the point but that's okay.

Fruit contains about equal parts fructose and glucose so I wouldn't call that minute...

Also the glycemic index was developed for diabetics and if you're not diabetic it's basically irrelevant. The way they determined the glycemic index was they would feed one specific carb BY ITSELF to a person in a fasted state and watch the insulin response during digestion. How often does that happen for a person? Who eats only one specific carb by itself in a fasted state? For most people rarely ever. It has been shown that the glycemic index is washed out and basically irrelevant when carbs are consumed with protein and or fat as both of those macronutrients slow digestion and thus slow the speed in which the carbs are processed resulting in a reduction in the insulin response and even if carbs are eaten alone, but in a fed state, the same situation applies.

It all depends on the fruit.

Irrelevant if you're not diabetic? Lol. If the glycemic index is washed out and basically irrelevant when carbs are consumed with protein and fat, why are so many people diabetic nowadays? It's not from eating protein, healthy fats, and low glycemic fruits. I can promise you that.

It's from over consuming calories in general and becoming obese. Obesity for the most part causes type 2 diabetes, results in insulin resistance, and therefore carbs and sugars must be carefully monitored once you become diabetic. It's very rare to see someone in a healthy weight range have type 2 diabetes and if they do, it is usually because they consume a ridiculous percentage of their caloric intake in carbohydrates and don't eat enough protein or it is genetic.

Ummmmm.......no, it's not that rare. There are plenty of type 2 diabetics that are not obese.

Do you have a number/percentage to quantify 'plenty'?

Well, I work in a nursing home and I see a fair share. You can google percentages if you want, I don't have a number for you. It's definitely common. http://chriskresser.com/think-skinny-people-dont-get-type-2-diabetes-think-again

Well that doesn't give any numbers or figures or...much of anything, actually. :indifferent:


I did google actually and skimmed a few studies. FIgures are contested, ranging from 1 in 12 (I'd still call that pretty rare) to 1 in 8 (12%, which I'd still consider a very small amount, but perhaps not rare. I wouldn't call it plenty, personally, though)

that sounds less than the original assertion of "fairly common" ..which was based on an observational study of working in one nursing home ….

My office is 80% female, does that mean that all small business are all 80% female…No, it just means that my office happens to have a lot of woman in it….which makes running the place a living hell..sorry ladies...

I'm willing to conceed that is the 1 in 8 figure is accurate that it's not 'rare' but yeah, not sure I'd call that 'a fair share' or anything.

But that's just me, on a personal level

Huge. Massive. Extremely large. Okay, significant? Perhaps, not extremely rare?

Achrya

Ummmmm.......no, it's not that rare. There are plenty of type 2 diabetics that are not obese.

Do you have a number/percentage to quantify 'plenty'?

you know, like lots

:laugh: :laugh:

I'm really curious though. Is it plenty as is "A lot of people, but still a small percentage of those with type 2?', because that would still be rare, or plenty as in "A decent percentage of people with type 2?", because those are two distinctly different implications.

Beyond that I'm curious about how many of those not obese people would qualify as overweight and, beyond that, of those who are considered 'normal weight' how many suffer from a high body fat percentage/Normal Weight Obesity, which carries the same risks as typical obesity.

Considering 1 out of 3 type 2 diabetics are undiagnosed, it's likely there are many "normal" weight people that are missed. Obese people automatically get screened for it.

I'm afraid I can't consider 'what if' scenerios as valid information when I'm looking for actual numbers and information.

And Non-obese doesn't mean normal weight; there is still the overweight but not obese category being overlooked.

easy on injecting logic into this thread…you should know better…!

I'm finishing braiding my hair so I need something to pass the time. I even brought out my 'thoughtful and seeking information' personality for a change of pace.

I'm also done, so I'll be back to cat gifs and food porn shortly.

neandermagnon

I'm actually not hurting my own argument. What you are talking about is the CONCENTRATED FORM of fructose. I'm referring to the natural form of fructose found in fruits.

And how exactly are they processed by your body differently?

I already posted the answer to that question. Not explaining it again.

What about the fact that fructose is almost always found with glucose, even in fruit? That negates your entire argument about fruit being superior because of the fructose present and the fact that it does not illicit an insulin response due to the claimed absence of glucose.

Fructose in both the commercial and natural domain has an equal amount of glucose attached to it. You’d have to go out of your way to obtain fructose without the accompanying glucose. Sucrose is half fructose and half glucose. High-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) is nearly identical to sucrose in structure and function. Here’s the point I’m getting at: contrary to Lustig’s contentions, both of these compounds have substantial research showing not just their ability to elicit an insulin response, but also their suppressive effect on appetite

Not once did I say fruit contains no glucose. The amount of glucose found in fruit is so minute. It all depends on its glycemic index. You're still not getting the point but that's okay.

Fruit contains about equal parts fructose and glucose so I wouldn't call that minute...

Also the glycemic index was developed for diabetics and if you're not diabetic it's basically irrelevant. The way they determined the glycemic index was they would feed one specific carb BY ITSELF to a person in a fasted state and watch the insulin response during digestion. How often does that happen for a person? Who eats only one specific carb by itself in a fasted state? For most people rarely ever. It has been shown that the glycemic index is washed out and basically irrelevant when carbs are consumed with protein and or fat as both of those macronutrients slow digestion and thus slow the speed in which the carbs are processed resulting in a reduction in the insulin response and even if carbs are eaten alone, but in a fed state, the same situation applies.

It all depends on the fruit.

Irrelevant if you're not diabetic? Lol. If the glycemic index is washed out and basically irrelevant when carbs are consumed with protein and fat, why are so many people diabetic nowadays? It's not from eating protein, healthy fats, and low glycemic fruits. I can promise you that.

It's from over consuming calories in general and becoming obese. Obesity for the most part causes type 2 diabetes, results in insulin resistance, and therefore carbs and sugars must be carefully monitored once you become diabetic. It's very rare to see someone in a healthy weight range have type 2 diabetes and if they do, it is usually because they consume a ridiculous percentage of their caloric intake in carbohydrates and don't eat enough protein or it is genetic.

Ummmmm.......no, it's not that rare. There are plenty of type 2 diabetics that are not obese.

Do you have a number/percentage to quantify 'plenty'?

Well, I work in a nursing home and I see a fair share. You can google percentages if you want, I don't have a number for you. It's definitely common. http://chriskresser.com/think-skinny-people-dont-get-type-2-diabetes-think-again

Well that doesn't give any numbers or figures or...much of anything, actually. :indifferent:


I did google actually and skimmed a few studies. FIgures are contested, ranging from 1 in 12 (I'd still call that pretty rare) to 1 in 8 (12%, which I'd still consider a very small amount, but perhaps not rare)

Stop it with your quantifications. We're talking a "fair share" here, maybe even "plenty"

replying to the person quoting the stats above sonofabeach's reply (sorry, too lazy to scroll through the thread!) - when there are millions of people in a group (e.g. sufferers of a common illness like type two diabetes) then 1 in 8 to 1 in 12 is actually a very large number of people.

1 in 12 of 1,000,000 people = 83,333 people. That is tens of thousands of people out of every million..... one in twelve is a LOT of people....

also. my granddad had two major heart attacks yet was never obese in his life. And my step granddad on the other side of my family had type 2 diabetes and he was far from obese, he was tall and slender, and he didn't live to be 70, and the diabetes was a factor in why he died.

Achrya

I'm actually not hurting my own argument. What you are talking about is the CONCENTRATED FORM of fructose. I'm referring to the natural form of fructose found in fruits.

And how exactly are they processed by your body differently?

I already posted the answer to that question. Not explaining it again.

What about the fact that fructose is almost always found with glucose, even in fruit? That negates your entire argument about fruit being superior because of the fructose present and the fact that it does not illicit an insulin response due to the claimed absence of glucose.

Fructose in both the commercial and natural domain has an equal amount of glucose attached to it. You’d have to go out of your way to obtain fructose without the accompanying glucose. Sucrose is half fructose and half glucose. High-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) is nearly identical to sucrose in structure and function. Here’s the point I’m getting at: contrary to Lustig’s contentions, both of these compounds have substantial research showing not just their ability to elicit an insulin response, but also their suppressive effect on appetite

Not once did I say fruit contains no glucose. The amount of glucose found in fruit is so minute. It all depends on its glycemic index. You're still not getting the point but that's okay.

Fruit contains about equal parts fructose and glucose so I wouldn't call that minute...

Also the glycemic index was developed for diabetics and if you're not diabetic it's basically irrelevant. The way they determined the glycemic index was they would feed one specific carb BY ITSELF to a person in a fasted state and watch the insulin response during digestion. How often does that happen for a person? Who eats only one specific carb by itself in a fasted state? For most people rarely ever. It has been shown that the glycemic index is washed out and basically irrelevant when carbs are consumed with protein and or fat as both of those macronutrients slow digestion and thus slow the speed in which the carbs are processed resulting in a reduction in the insulin response and even if carbs are eaten alone, but in a fed state, the same situation applies.

It all depends on the fruit.

Irrelevant if you're not diabetic? Lol. If the glycemic index is washed out and basically irrelevant when carbs are consumed with protein and fat, why are so many people diabetic nowadays? It's not from eating protein, healthy fats, and low glycemic fruits. I can promise you that.

It's from over consuming calories in general and becoming obese. Obesity for the most part causes type 2 diabetes, results in insulin resistance, and therefore carbs and sugars must be carefully monitored once you become diabetic. It's very rare to see someone in a healthy weight range have type 2 diabetes and if they do, it is usually because they consume a ridiculous percentage of their caloric intake in carbohydrates and don't eat enough protein or it is genetic.

Ummmmm.......no, it's not that rare. There are plenty of type 2 diabetics that are not obese.

Do you have a number/percentage to quantify 'plenty'?

Well, I work in a nursing home and I see a fair share. You can google percentages if you want, I don't have a number for you. It's definitely common. http://chriskresser.com/think-skinny-people-dont-get-type-2-diabetes-think-again

Well that doesn't give any numbers or figures or...much of anything, actually. :indifferent:


I did google actually and skimmed a few studies. FIgures are contested, ranging from 1 in 12 (I'd still call that pretty rare) to 1 in 8 (12%, which I'd still consider a very small amount, but perhaps not rare)

Stop it with your quantifications. We're talking a "fair share" here, maybe even "plenty"

replying to the person quoting the stats above sonofabeach's reply (sorry, too lazy to scroll through the thread!) - when there are millions of people in a group (e.g. sufferers of a common illness like type two diabetes) then 1 in 8 to 1 in 12 is actually a very large number of people.

1 in 12 of 1,000,000 people = 83,333 people. That is tens of thousands of people out of every million..... one in twelve is a LOT of people....

also. my granddad had two major heart attacks yet was never obese in his life. And my step granddad on the other side of my family had type 2 diabetes and he was far from obese, he was tall and slender, and he didn't live to be 70, and the diabetes was a factor in why he died.

A large number of people overall is not the same thing as a large portion of a group. I wouldn't consider 8-12.5% of anything to be a large amount. I am comfortable saying, with the information I've been able to dig up, that non-obesity related type 2 diabetes is fairly uncommon.

SunofaBeach14

I'm actually not hurting my own argument. What you are talking about is the CONCENTRATED FORM of fructose. I'm referring to the natural form of fructose found in fruits.

And how exactly are they processed by your body differently?

I already posted the answer to that question. Not explaining it again.

What about the fact that fructose is almost always found with glucose, even in fruit? That negates your entire argument about fruit being superior because of the fructose present and the fact that it does not illicit an insulin response due to the claimed absence of glucose.

Fructose in both the commercial and natural domain has an equal amount of glucose attached to it. You’d have to go out of your way to obtain fructose without the accompanying glucose. Sucrose is half fructose and half glucose. High-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) is nearly identical to sucrose in structure and function. Here’s the point I’m getting at: contrary to Lustig’s contentions, both of these compounds have substantial research showing not just their ability to elicit an insulin response, but also their suppressive effect on appetite

Not once did I say fruit contains no glucose. The amount of glucose found in fruit is so minute. It all depends on its glycemic index. You're still not getting the point but that's okay.

Fruit contains about equal parts fructose and glucose so I wouldn't call that minute...

Also the glycemic index was developed for diabetics and if you're not diabetic it's basically irrelevant. The way they determined the glycemic index was they would feed one specific carb BY ITSELF to a person in a fasted state and watch the insulin response during digestion. How often does that happen for a person? Who eats only one specific carb by itself in a fasted state? For most people rarely ever. It has been shown that the glycemic index is washed out and basically irrelevant when carbs are consumed with protein and or fat as both of those macronutrients slow digestion and thus slow the speed in which the carbs are processed resulting in a reduction in the insulin response and even if carbs are eaten alone, but in a fed state, the same situation applies.

It all depends on the fruit.

Irrelevant if you're not diabetic? Lol. If the glycemic index is washed out and basically irrelevant when carbs are consumed with protein and fat, why are so many people diabetic nowadays? It's not from eating protein, healthy fats, and low glycemic fruits. I can promise you that.

It's from over consuming calories in general and becoming obese. Obesity for the most part causes type 2 diabetes, results in insulin resistance, and therefore carbs and sugars must be carefully monitored once you become diabetic. It's very rare to see someone in a healthy weight range have type 2 diabetes and if they do, it is usually because they consume a ridiculous percentage of their caloric intake in carbohydrates and don't eat enough protein or it is genetic.

Ummmmm.......no, it's not that rare. There are plenty of type 2 diabetics that are not obese.

Do you have a number/percentage to quantify 'plenty'?

Well, I work in a nursing home and I see a fair share. You can google percentages if you want, I don't have a number for you. It's definitely common. http://chriskresser.com/think-skinny-people-dont-get-type-2-diabetes-think-again

Well that doesn't give any numbers or figures or...much of anything, actually. :indifferent:


I did google actually and skimmed a few studies. FIgures are contested, ranging from 1 in 12 (I'd still call that pretty rare) to 1 in 8 (12%, which I'd still consider a very small amount, but perhaps not rare)

Stop it with your quantifications. We're talking a "fair share" here, maybe even "plenty"

replying to the person quoting the stats above sonofabeach's reply (sorry, too lazy to scroll through the thread!) - when there are millions of people in a group (e.g. sufferers of a common illness like type two diabetes) then 1 in 8 to 1 in 12 is actually a very large number of people.

1 in 12 of 1,000,000 people = 83,333 people. That is tens of thousands of people out of every million..... one in twelve is a LOT of people....

also. my granddad had two major heart attacks yet was never obese in his life. And my step granddad on the other side of my family had type 2 diabetes and he was far from obese, he was tall and slender, and he didn't live to be 70, and the diabetes was a factor in why he died.

A large number of people overall is not the same thing as a large portion of a group. I wouldn't consider 8-12.5% of anything to be a large amount.

Isn't that 1 out of 8 to 12 people with Type 2?

Achrya

I'm actually not hurting my own argument. What you are talking about is the CONCENTRATED FORM of fructose. I'm referring to the natural form of fructose found in fruits.

And how exactly are they processed by your body differently?

I already posted the answer to that question. Not explaining it again.

What about the fact that fructose is almost always found with glucose, even in fruit? That negates your entire argument about fruit being superior because of the fructose present and the fact that it does not illicit an insulin response due to the claimed absence of glucose.

Fructose in both the commercial and natural domain has an equal amount of glucose attached to it. You’d have to go out of your way to obtain fructose without the accompanying glucose. Sucrose is half fructose and half glucose. High-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) is nearly identical to sucrose in structure and function. Here’s the point I’m getting at: contrary to Lustig’s contentions, both of these compounds have substantial research showing not just their ability to elicit an insulin response, but also their suppressive effect on appetite

Not once did I say fruit contains no glucose. The amount of glucose found in fruit is so minute. It all depends on its glycemic index. You're still not getting the point but that's okay.

Fruit contains about equal parts fructose and glucose so I wouldn't call that minute...

Also the glycemic index was developed for diabetics and if you're not diabetic it's basically irrelevant. The way they determined the glycemic index was they would feed one specific carb BY ITSELF to a person in a fasted state and watch the insulin response during digestion. How often does that happen for a person? Who eats only one specific carb by itself in a fasted state? For most people rarely ever. It has been shown that the glycemic index is washed out and basically irrelevant when carbs are consumed with protein and or fat as both of those macronutrients slow digestion and thus slow the speed in which the carbs are processed resulting in a reduction in the insulin response and even if carbs are eaten alone, but in a fed state, the same situation applies.

It all depends on the fruit.

Irrelevant if you're not diabetic? Lol. If the glycemic index is washed out and basically irrelevant when carbs are consumed with protein and fat, why are so many people diabetic nowadays? It's not from eating protein, healthy fats, and low glycemic fruits. I can promise you that.

It's from over consuming calories in general and becoming obese. Obesity for the most part causes type 2 diabetes, results in insulin resistance, and therefore carbs and sugars must be carefully monitored once you become diabetic. It's very rare to see someone in a healthy weight range have type 2 diabetes and if they do, it is usually because they consume a ridiculous percentage of their caloric intake in carbohydrates and don't eat enough protein or it is genetic.

Ummmmm.......no, it's not that rare. There are plenty of type 2 diabetics that are not obese.

Do you have a number/percentage to quantify 'plenty'?

Well, I work in a nursing home and I see a fair share. You can google percentages if you want, I don't have a number for you. It's definitely common. http://chriskresser.com/think-skinny-people-dont-get-type-2-diabetes-think-again

Well that doesn't give any numbers or figures or...much of anything, actually. :indifferent:


I did google actually and skimmed a few studies. FIgures are contested, ranging from 1 in 12 (I'd still call that pretty rare) to 1 in 8 (12%, which I'd still consider a very small amount, but perhaps not rare)

Stop it with your quantifications. We're talking a "fair share" here, maybe even "plenty"

replying to the person quoting the stats above sonofabeach's reply (sorry, too lazy to scroll through the thread!) - when there are millions of people in a group (e.g. sufferers of a common illness like type two diabetes) then 1 in 8 to 1 in 12 is actually a very large number of people.

1 in 12 of 1,000,000 people = 83,333 people. That is tens of thousands of people out of every million..... one in twelve is a LOT of people....

also. my granddad had two major heart attacks yet was never obese in his life. And my step granddad on the other side of my family had type 2 diabetes and he was far from obese, he was tall and slender, and he didn't live to be 70, and the diabetes was a factor in why he died.

A large number of people overall is not the same thing as a large portion of a group. I wouldn't consider 8-12.5% of anything to be a large amount.

Isn't that 1 out of 8 to 12 people with Type 2?

1 in 8-12 people with type 2 are non-obese, which is 8.3(repeating)-12.5%.

And I'm done with my hair. BRB, finding pictures of a rampaging sugar monster/sweets to post.

Galatea_Stone

I'm actually not hurting my own argument. What you are talking about is the CONCENTRATED FORM of fructose. I'm referring to the natural form of fructose found in fruits.

And how exactly are they processed by your body differently?

I already posted the answer to that question. Not explaining it again.

What about the fact that fructose is almost always found with glucose, even in fruit? That negates your entire argument about fruit being superior because of the fructose present and the fact that it does not illicit an insulin response due to the claimed absence of glucose.

Fructose in both the commercial and natural domain has an equal amount of glucose attached to it. You’d have to go out of your way to obtain fructose without the accompanying glucose. Sucrose is half fructose and half glucose. High-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) is nearly identical to sucrose in structure and function. Here’s the point I’m getting at: contrary to Lustig’s contentions, both of these compounds have substantial research showing not just their ability to elicit an insulin response, but also their suppressive effect on appetite

Not once did I say fruit contains no glucose. The amount of glucose found in fruit is so minute. It all depends on its glycemic index. You're still not getting the point but that's okay.

Fruit contains about equal parts fructose and glucose so I wouldn't call that minute...

Also the glycemic index was developed for diabetics and if you're not diabetic it's basically irrelevant. The way they determined the glycemic index was they would feed one specific carb BY ITSELF to a person in a fasted state and watch the insulin response during digestion. How often does that happen for a person? Who eats only one specific carb by itself in a fasted state? For most people rarely ever. It has been shown that the glycemic index is washed out and basically irrelevant when carbs are consumed with protein and or fat as both of those macronutrients slow digestion and thus slow the speed in which the carbs are processed resulting in a reduction in the insulin response and even if carbs are eaten alone, but in a fed state, the same situation applies.

It all depends on the fruit.

Irrelevant if you're not diabetic? Lol. If the glycemic index is washed out and basically irrelevant when carbs are consumed with protein and fat, why are so many people diabetic nowadays? It's not from eating protein, healthy fats, and low glycemic fruits. I can promise you that.

It's from over consuming calories in general and becoming obese. Obesity for the most part causes type 2 diabetes, results in insulin resistance, and therefore carbs and sugars must be carefully monitored once you become diabetic. It's very rare to see someone in a healthy weight range have type 2 diabetes and if they do, it is usually because they consume a ridiculous percentage of their caloric intake in carbohydrates and don't eat enough protein or it is genetic.

Ummmmm.......no, it's not that rare. There are plenty of type 2 diabetics that are not obese.

Do you have a number/percentage to quantify 'plenty'?

Well, I work in a nursing home and I see a fair share. You can google percentages if you want, I don't have a number for you. It's definitely common. http://chriskresser.com/think-skinny-people-dont-get-type-2-diabetes-think-again

Well that doesn't give any numbers or figures or...much of anything, actually. :indifferent:


I did google actually and skimmed a few studies. FIgures are contested, ranging from 1 in 12 (I'd still call that pretty rare) to 1 in 8 (12%, which I'd still consider a very small amount, but perhaps not rare)

Stop it with your quantifications. We're talking a "fair share" here, maybe even "plenty"

replying to the person quoting the stats above sonofabeach's reply (sorry, too lazy to scroll through the thread!) - when there are millions of people in a group (e.g. sufferers of a common illness like type two diabetes) then 1 in 8 to 1 in 12 is actually a very large number of people.

1 in 12 of 1,000,000 people = 83,333 people. That is tens of thousands of people out of every million..... one in twelve is a LOT of people....

also. my granddad had two major heart attacks yet was never obese in his life. And my step granddad on the other side of my family had type 2 diabetes and he was far from obese, he was tall and slender, and he didn't live to be 70, and the diabetes was a factor in why he died.

A large number of people overall is not the same thing as a large portion of a group. I wouldn't consider 8-12.5% of anything to be a large amount.

Isn't that 1 out of 8 to 12 people with Type 2?

Yes. It is. 80% of people with type 2 diabetes are obese. It is estimated that 7% of the population has Type 2 diabetes, and 8% of 7% is...not that many people.

SunofaBeach14

I'm actually not hurting my own argument. What you are talking about is the CONCENTRATED FORM of fructose. I'm referring to the natural form of fructose found in fruits.

And how exactly are they processed by your body differently?

I already posted the answer to that question. Not explaining it again.

What about the fact that fructose is almost always found with glucose, even in fruit? That negates your entire argument about fruit being superior because of the fructose present and the fact that it does not illicit an insulin response due to the claimed absence of glucose.

Fructose in both the commercial and natural domain has an equal amount of glucose attached to it. You’d have to go out of your way to obtain fructose without the accompanying glucose. Sucrose is half fructose and half glucose. High-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) is nearly identical to sucrose in structure and function. Here’s the point I’m getting at: contrary to Lustig’s contentions, both of these compounds have substantial research showing not just their ability to elicit an insulin response, but also their suppressive effect on appetite

Not once did I say fruit contains no glucose. The amount of glucose found in fruit is so minute. It all depends on its glycemic index. You're still not getting the point but that's okay.

Fruit contains about equal parts fructose and glucose so I wouldn't call that minute...

Also the glycemic index was developed for diabetics and if you're not diabetic it's basically irrelevant. The way they determined the glycemic index was they would feed one specific carb BY ITSELF to a person in a fasted state and watch the insulin response during digestion. How often does that happen for a person? Who eats only one specific carb by itself in a fasted state? For most people rarely ever. It has been shown that the glycemic index is washed out and basically irrelevant when carbs are consumed with protein and or fat as both of those macronutrients slow digestion and thus slow the speed in which the carbs are processed resulting in a reduction in the insulin response and even if carbs are eaten alone, but in a fed state, the same situation applies.

It all depends on the fruit.

Irrelevant if you're not diabetic? Lol. If the glycemic index is washed out and basically irrelevant when carbs are consumed with protein and fat, why are so many people diabetic nowadays? It's not from eating protein, healthy fats, and low glycemic fruits. I can promise you that.

It's from over consuming calories in general and becoming obese. Obesity for the most part causes type 2 diabetes, results in insulin resistance, and therefore carbs and sugars must be carefully monitored once you become diabetic. It's very rare to see someone in a healthy weight range have type 2 diabetes and if they do, it is usually because they consume a ridiculous percentage of their caloric intake in carbohydrates and don't eat enough protein or it is genetic.

Ummmmm.......no, it's not that rare. There are plenty of type 2 diabetics that are not obese.

Do you have a number/percentage to quantify 'plenty'?

Well, I work in a nursing home and I see a fair share. You can google percentages if you want, I don't have a number for you. It's definitely common. http://chriskresser.com/think-skinny-people-dont-get-type-2-diabetes-think-again

Well that doesn't give any numbers or figures or...much of anything, actually. :indifferent:


I did google actually and skimmed a few studies. FIgures are contested, ranging from 1 in 12 (I'd still call that pretty rare) to 1 in 8 (12%, which I'd still consider a very small amount, but perhaps not rare)

Stop it with your quantifications. We're talking a "fair share" here, maybe even "plenty"

replying to the person quoting the stats above sonofabeach's reply (sorry, too lazy to scroll through the thread!) - when there are millions of people in a group (e.g. sufferers of a common illness like type two diabetes) then 1 in 8 to 1 in 12 is actually a very large number of people.

1 in 12 of 1,000,000 people = 83,333 people. That is tens of thousands of people out of every million..... one in twelve is a LOT of people....

also. my granddad had two major heart attacks yet was never obese in his life. And my step granddad on the other side of my family had type 2 diabetes and he was far from obese, he was tall and slender, and he didn't live to be 70, and the diabetes was a factor in why he died.

A large number of people overall is not the same thing as a large portion of a group. I wouldn't consider 8-12.5% of anything to be a large amount.

Isn't that 1 out of 8 to 12 people with Type 2?

Yes. It is. 80% of people with type 2 diabetes are obese. It is estimated that 7% of the population has Type 2 diabetes, and 8% of 7% is...not that many people.

In absolute terms it will seem like a lot, but agreed. It still sucks if you're the one taking care of yourself and got the short end of the genetic stick though.

Achrya

I'm actually not hurting my own argument. What you are talking about is the CONCENTRATED FORM of fructose. I'm referring to the natural form of fructose found in fruits.

And how exactly are they processed by your body differently?

I already posted the answer to that question. Not explaining it again.

What about the fact that fructose is almost always found with glucose, even in fruit? That negates your entire argument about fruit being superior because of the fructose present and the fact that it does not illicit an insulin response due to the claimed absence of glucose.

Fructose in both the commercial and natural domain has an equal amount of glucose attached to it. You’d have to go out of your way to obtain fructose without the accompanying glucose. Sucrose is half fructose and half glucose. High-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) is nearly identical to sucrose in structure and function. Here’s the point I’m getting at: contrary to Lustig’s contentions, both of these compounds have substantial research showing not just their ability to elicit an insulin response, but also their suppressive effect on appetite

Not once did I say fruit contains no glucose. The amount of glucose found in fruit is so minute. It all depends on its glycemic index. You're still not getting the point but that's okay.

Fruit contains about equal parts fructose and glucose so I wouldn't call that minute...

Also the glycemic index was developed for diabetics and if you're not diabetic it's basically irrelevant. The way they determined the glycemic index was they would feed one specific carb BY ITSELF to a person in a fasted state and watch the insulin response during digestion. How often does that happen for a person? Who eats only one specific carb by itself in a fasted state? For most people rarely ever. It has been shown that the glycemic index is washed out and basically irrelevant when carbs are consumed with protein and or fat as both of those macronutrients slow digestion and thus slow the speed in which the carbs are processed resulting in a reduction in the insulin response and even if carbs are eaten alone, but in a fed state, the same situation applies.

It all depends on the fruit.

Irrelevant if you're not diabetic? Lol. If the glycemic index is washed out and basically irrelevant when carbs are consumed with protein and fat, why are so many people diabetic nowadays? It's not from eating protein, healthy fats, and low glycemic fruits. I can promise you that.

It's from over consuming calories in general and becoming obese. Obesity for the most part causes type 2 diabetes, results in insulin resistance, and therefore carbs and sugars must be carefully monitored once you become diabetic. It's very rare to see someone in a healthy weight range have type 2 diabetes and if they do, it is usually because they consume a ridiculous percentage of their caloric intake in carbohydrates and don't eat enough protein or it is genetic.

Ummmmm.......no, it's not that rare. There are plenty of type 2 diabetics that are not obese.

Do you have a number/percentage to quantify 'plenty'?

Well, I work in a nursing home and I see a fair share. You can google percentages if you want, I don't have a number for you. It's definitely common. http://chriskresser.com/think-skinny-people-dont-get-type-2-diabetes-think-again

Well that doesn't give any numbers or figures or...much of anything, actually. :indifferent:


I did google actually and skimmed a few studies. FIgures are contested, ranging from 1 in 12 (I'd still call that pretty rare) to 1 in 8 (12%, which I'd still consider a very small amount, but perhaps not rare)

Stop it with your quantifications. We're talking a "fair share" here, maybe even "plenty"

replying to the person quoting the stats above sonofabeach's reply (sorry, too lazy to scroll through the thread!) - when there are millions of people in a group (e.g. sufferers of a common illness like type two diabetes) then 1 in 8 to 1 in 12 is actually a very large number of people.

1 in 12 of 1,000,000 people = 83,333 people. That is tens of thousands of people out of every million..... one in twelve is a LOT of people....

also. my granddad had two major heart attacks yet was never obese in his life. And my step granddad on the other side of my family had type 2 diabetes and he was far from obese, he was tall and slender, and he didn't live to be 70, and the diabetes was a factor in why he died.

A large number of people overall is not the same thing as a large portion of a group. I wouldn't consider 8-12.5% of anything to be a large amount.

Isn't that 1 out of 8 to 12 people with Type 2?

Yes. It is. 80% of people with type 2 diabetes are obese. It is estimated that 7% of the population has Type 2 diabetes, and 8% of 7% is...not that many people.

Yes, this. Much more clear and to the point than what I was saying.

Clearly my brain was already shifting out of 'curious' mode.

SunofaBeach14

I'm actually not hurting my own argument. What you are talking about is the CONCENTRATED FORM of fructose. I'm referring to the natural form of fructose found in fruits.

And how exactly are they processed by your body differently?

I already posted the answer to that question. Not explaining it again.

What about the fact that fructose is almost always found with glucose, even in fruit? That negates your entire argument about fruit being superior because of the fructose present and the fact that it does not illicit an insulin response due to the claimed absence of glucose.

Fructose in both the commercial and natural domain has an equal amount of glucose attached to it. You’d have to go out of your way to obtain fructose without the accompanying glucose. Sucrose is half fructose and half glucose. High-fructose corn syrup (HFCS) is nearly identical to sucrose in structure and function. Here’s the point I’m getting at: contrary to Lustig’s contentions, both of these compounds have substantial research showing not just their ability to elicit an insulin response, but also their suppressive effect on appetite

Not once did I say fruit contains no glucose. The amount of glucose found in fruit is so minute. It all depends on its glycemic index. You're still not getting the point but that's okay.

Fruit contains about equal parts fructose and glucose so I wouldn't call that minute...

Also the glycemic index was developed for diabetics and if you're not diabetic it's basically irrelevant. The way they determined the glycemic index was they would feed one specific carb BY ITSELF to a person in a fasted state and watch the insulin response during digestion. How often does that happen for a person? Who eats only one specific carb by itself in a fasted state? For most people rarely ever. It has been shown that the glycemic index is washed out and basically irrelevant when carbs are consumed with protein and or fat as both of those macronutrients slow digestion and thus slow the speed in which the carbs are processed resulting in a reduction in the insulin response and even if carbs are eaten alone, but in a fed state, the same situation applies.

It all depends on the fruit.

Irrelevant if you're not diabetic? Lol. If the glycemic index is washed out and basically irrelevant when carbs are consumed with protein and fat, why are so many people diabetic nowadays? It's not from eating protein, healthy fats, and low glycemic fruits. I can promise you that.

It's from over consuming calories in general and becoming obese. Obesity for the most part causes type 2 diabetes, results in insulin resistance, and therefore carbs and sugars must be carefully monitored once you become diabetic. It's very rare to see someone in a healthy weight range have type 2 diabetes and if they do, it is usually because they consume a ridiculous percentage of their caloric intake in carbohydrates and don't eat enough protein or it is genetic.

Ummmmm.......no, it's not that rare. There are plenty of type 2 diabetics that are not obese.

Do you have a number/percentage to quantify 'plenty'?

Well, I work in a nursing home and I see a fair share. You can google percentages if you want, I don't have a number for you. It's definitely common. http://chriskresser.com/think-skinny-people-dont-get-type-2-diabetes-think-again

Well that doesn't give any numbers or figures or...much of anything, actually. :indifferent:


I did google actually and skimmed a few studies. FIgures are contested, ranging from 1 in 12 (I'd still call that pretty rare) to 1 in 8 (12%, which I'd still consider a very small amount, but perhaps not rare)

Stop it with your quantifications. We're talking a "fair share" here, maybe even "plenty"

replying to the person quoting the stats above sonofabeach's reply (sorry, too lazy to scroll through the thread!) - when there are millions of people in a group (e.g. sufferers of a common illness like type two diabetes) then 1 in 8 to 1 in 12 is actually a very large number of people.

1 in 12 of 1,000,000 people = 83,333 people. That is tens of thousands of people out of every million..... one in twelve is a LOT of people....

also. my granddad had two major heart attacks yet was never obese in his life. And my step granddad on the other side of my family had type 2 diabetes and he was far from obese, he was tall and slender, and he didn't live to be 70, and the diabetes was a factor in why he died.

A large number of people overall is not the same thing as a large portion of a group. I wouldn't consider 8-12.5% of anything to be a large amount.

Isn't that 1 out of 8 to 12 people with Type 2?

Yes. It is. 80% of people with type 2 diabetes are obese. It is estimated that 7% of the population has Type 2 diabetes, and 8% of 7% is...not that many people.

Yes, this. Much more clear and to the point than what I was saying.

Clearly my brain was already shifting out of 'curious' mode.

So, we have settled on "a handful," perhaps even "a few" then?

Natmarie73

And this my friends is why there will never, ever be peace in the middle east...

4realrose8

33% of our country is obese, but only 8.3% of the population has type 2 diabetes. Type 2 diabetes is more prevalent in the obese, BUT most obese people do not have diabetes. Also, thin people can have type 2 diabetes as well.

Conclusion-- You don't eat your way to diabetes. It's much more complex than that. We all with type 2 diabetes got the short end of the genetic stick.

4realrose8

33% of our country is obese, but only 8.3% of the population has type 2 diabetes. Type 2 diabetes is more prevalent in the obese, BUT most obese people do not have diabetes. Also, thin people can have type 2 diabetes as well.

Conclusion-- You don't eat your way to diabetes. It's much more complex than that. We all with type 2 diabetes got the short end of the genetic stick.

ndj1979

And this my friends is why there will never, ever be peace in the middle east...

sure if you say so …who knew, MFP is the reason there will never be peace in the middle east…someone call Arafat...

SunofaBeach14

And this my friends is why there will never, ever be peace in the middle east...

sure if you say so …who knew, MFP is the reason there will never be peace in the middle east…someone call Arafat...

Oil and Sugar DO NOT mix

Achrya

And this my friends is why there will never, ever be peace in the middle east...

Because sugar?

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[/img]

ndj1979

And this my friends is why there will never, ever be peace in the middle east...

sure if you say so …who knew, MFP is the reason there will never be peace in the middle east…someone call Arafat...

Oil and Sugar DO NOT mix

I thought if you mixed them, then sugar became negative calories??

CMB1979

SunofaBeach14

And this my friends is why there will never, ever be peace in the middle east...

sure if you say so …who knew, MFP is the reason there will never be peace in the middle east…someone call Arafat...

Oil and Sugar DO NOT mix

I thought if you mixed them, then sugar became negative calories??

I'm going to eat some red velvet cake ice cream and contemplate the consumption of dark matter



That didn't sound right . . .