Pulling it all together

Robide

Hi guys and gals,

Firstly, I've been lurking in here for a while, along with Eat, Train, Progress trying to up my knowledge, and understanding of what I should and shouldn't be doing as I continue on my fitness journey. I wanted to post this message in this forum, because to be frank, I've been really amazed by the quality of knowledge and understanding in this forum - the losing weight on 2,800 cal thread is just testament to that - so thank you to all of you who have contributed to that.

The long story, cut short is this: I went from being Cartman fat (turns out I wasn't just big boned) to where I am now, sat at between 85 and 86kg (it jumps up and down at the moment a fair bit), of which I believe somewhere between 17-18% of this to be body fat.

Like so many people, I've been searching for the holy grail of building muscle, while burning fat, which has lead me to where I am now - at the beginning stages of a 5/3/1 routine, which I am really, really enjoying, and seeing results from, but struggling a lot with energy levels.

Over the last 2 months since spending some time working out my Macros, and upping my exercise, I've seen myself drop 1.7kg (I know, this is gaining weight forum - bare with me!), my bodyfat drop by around 3%, and an inch from around my belly.

When I work out my LBM, it looks like I am at about 1.3KG up (this to my mind is the important bit!), assuming my maths and estimates have been correct.

The methodology I've been working towards is this:

I have a job that varies massively from days sat behind a desk all day, to a lot of time on my feet, travelling around London. As such, I based my TDEE on being sedentary, and then 'earning' extra calories based on my fitbit readings and exercise. That way, I don't eat too much on the days I'm sat on my *kitten* all day. I then put in a rough estimate of what I am burning when lifting, by very crudely taking the number my HRM produces, and dividing it by three.

Whilst I've seen results, I'm now certain this needs some tweaking, because I find after a lifting session, I quite simply crash in the evening, and often struggle the next day with energy and waking up in the morning, something I've never had a problem with. I've also been working my calorie intake on a 20% deficit for my TDEE, and this is, I suspect, a big reason why I have this crash - there's not enough going in, and my body isn't able to create enough glucagon from fat to recover.

I wanted to share my numbers and routine with you all, and see what you think, and ask for some feedback about what I could be doing differently, and better.

Starting with my numbers, I have recalculated them today using the TDEE estimator on FitnessFrog.com, which works out my TDEE to be:

2,307 based on a sedentary
2,643 based on exercising 1-3 times a week
2,980 based on exercising 3-5 times a week

At the moment, I feel I still need to be working on a cut philosophy to see my body fat drop, so plan to take 20% off the numbers to create a suitable deficit. The change I will make is moving from basing my numbers on a sedentary basis to based on my exercise routine of 1-3 times a week, given my routine is currently 5/3/1 3 times a week, and when I can, a circa 12 mile bike ride at the weekend.

Based on this, I plan to up my calories to 2,114 (it's now at 1,880 + whatever I 'earn'), and then focus less on the 'earning' calories from steps in an attempt to get over the crashes I am struggling with at the moment by having a steady daily intake.

My hope is that in doing so, I will continue to see progress with fat dropping and a better LBM, but not struggling as much on work out days, and the following day, and allowing me to get my body fat down to a point where I can enter a bulk cycle.

Does this make sense, or am I making some obvious, new to lifting and bulk/cut way of progressing?

KoopaSix

Not sure what your goals are but if they are bodybuilding.......

I kind of just skimmed over that huge wall of text and am guessing your question is basically:

A. Can you gain muscle and lose fat simultaneously

and

B. Is it better to cut/bulk

To answer your question, yes you CAN gain muscle and lose fat simultaneously HOWEVER, this is only true for individuals with either a previous fitness backround (muscle memory) and those who are just starting. Eventually gains will come to a halt. To gain lean body mass you HAVE to be in a caloric surplus, there's no way around it. Where else is your body going to take those calores from to build/repair more lean mass that it requires? Don't forget your body DOES NOT want to build muscle. Muscle is the last thing it wants. Fat is a survival tool that can be used whereas muscle is not. You have to create an anabolic enviroment that makes your body adapt and think it needs the excess lean mass. You do this through a caloric surplus and hypertrophic /strength training. Generally people cut to a lower body fat (10-13%) to take advantage of the nutrient partitioning capabilities of being lean. Bulking at a higher body fat makes your body prone to storing more of those excess calories as subcutaneous fat.

Recomp I.E. (losing fat and gaining muscle) is possible but will accumulate at a snail pace. If I were in your shoes (and I have been), I'd finish cutting to 10-13% and lean bulk with no more than a 150-200 calorie surplus. Monitor this for a few weeks and if your gaining .5-1lbs per week, you're doing it right. Any bodybuilder will tell you you're are much much better off working through phases. The gains you can get during a well laid out bulk can be amazing. After your first cut, losing the excess fat after your first bulk will be so much easier.

Fithealthyforlife

The fact that recomping "works" for both people who are just starting and those who are returning leads me to believe it can work for anyone who has fat to burn if done right. Of course, that means getting enough protein, lifting hard, etc. But it works better for some people and worse for others. Most people who lift wieghts and build 5-10 lbs of muscle in 3 years aren't so much bulking, imho...they're more recomping. Their weight doesn't increase, but they build some muscle. So it does work. Most people don't even know you need a surplus to build muscle, and have never even heard of bulking.

I also hear that recomping works better for women in general, too. Apparently that is because women have higher bodyfat, have estrogen, and burn (as well as store) fat during exercise (instead of just glycogen) more readily than men. Apparently estrogen reduces the amount of micro damage to muscle when working out. Testosterone on the other hand speeds up protein turnover...both breakdown and rebuild as I understand it...which is why we can build muscle faster as men. But on the flip side, if you're a guy and you have low bodyfat (single digits) and you weight train hard but don't eat a surplus, you're just breaking down the muscle and not so much rebuilding it. But recomping does work for guys, too. It's just that we usually have less fat to work with and hormones that want to speed up protein turnover rather than do it in a nice slow, steady way...which is what proper recomping does.

Your call. Either continue cutting down and then bulk, or start recomping now at maintenance, and increase calories as your bodyfat level drops. Both methods will entail trial and error, and you will have to reverse diet either way if you want to feel good...so might as well make the most of it.

waldo56

Recomp I.E. (losing fat and gaining muscle) is possible but will accumulate at a snail pace. If I were in your shoes (and I have been), I'd finish cutting to 10-13% and lean bulk with no more than a 150-200 calorie surplus. Monitor this for a few weeks and if your gaining .5-1lbs per week, you're doing it right. Any bodybuilder will tell you you're are much much better off working through phases. The gains you can get during a well laid out bulk can be amazing. After your first cut, losing the excess fat after your first bulk will be so much easier.

I second your point about recomping. Its just fools gold and a waste of time.

However if you are gaining at .5-1.0 lb/wk you have a 250-500 cal surplus.

I always aim for 0.8 lb/wk, a 400 cal surplus, when bulking; its enough to be in a surplus 24/7, bulking at peak efficiency, but not so big that there is excessive fat gain.

Cutting after bulking is super easy. Compared to fat people getting less fat, your body and mind are in a totally different place, the fat just melts away.

For example, I'm bulking right now and have been for a couple months. I'm going to start cutting next week. But I'm only going to cut for 2 weeks, with a goal of losing 4 pounds (1" off the waist). Erasing all the fat gain from the bulk plus a little extra. By the time my body/mind figures out I'm cutting, I'll already be done and ramping back into bulking. I'm pretty sick of bulking ATM so a couple weeks of cutting will be a nice break. Easy peasy.

TonyStark30

Lift and cut to 10% then do a post about this topic. Even recomping if it even worked for you for a bit you you'll get to low body fat from 18% by doing it.

Robide

Thanks for the tips.

I agree, the concept of a re-comp is a nice one, but one which I'm far from convinced about. I saw some great traction from attempting this at first, but my body has rapidly adjusted to this, and the drops in inches around the waist have stopped, although I am noticing it in other areas. The weight metric is on the up though, so i'll be spending some time analysing my macros over the last couple of weeks, which I have ignored lately.

I'll plan to stick with the aim of cutting for the time being, before attempting to enter into any form of bulking program, as for whatever reason, my body is very inclined towards storing fat, which is frustrating.

When you guys go on a cut, what is your typical approach? Do you let it impact your lifting routine? Do you throw in more cardio? Or is it just a case of carry on as usual, and cut back the calories to a 10-20% deficit?

JoRocka

yes to your questions.

I don't like cardio- but I also don't like eating 'just' 1200 calories or whatever ridiculous count I'm supposed to eat. - so I do cardio to increase the deficit and allow me to eat more.

I don't change lifting programs unless I'm changing for a reason- but I don't expect to see great gains either- mostly just maintain the lift and try to not lose anything.

SteveJWatson

Recomp I.E. (losing fat and gaining muscle) is possible but will accumulate at a snail pace. If I were in your shoes (and I have been), I'd finish cutting to 10-13% and lean bulk with no more than a 150-200 calorie surplus. Monitor this for a few weeks and if your gaining .5-1lbs per week, you're doing it right. Any bodybuilder will tell you you're are much much better off working through phases. The gains you can get during a well laid out bulk can be amazing. After your first cut, losing the excess fat after your first bulk will be so much easier.

I second your point about recomping. Its just fools gold and a waste of time.

However if you are gaining at .5-1.0 lb/wk you have a 250-500 cal surplus.

I always aim for 0.8 lb/wk, a 400 cal surplus, when bulking; its enough to be in a surplus 24/7, bulking at peak efficiency, but not so big that there is excessive fat gain.

Cutting after bulking is super easy. Compared to fat people getting less fat, your body and mind are in a totally different place, the fat just melts away.

For example, I'm bulking right now and have been for a couple months. I'm going to start cutting next week. But I'm only going to cut for 2 weeks, with a goal of losing 4 pounds (1" off the waist). Erasing all the fat gain from the bulk plus a little extra. By the time my body/mind figures out I'm cutting, I'll already be done and ramping back into bulking. I'm pretty sick of bulking ATM so a couple weeks of cutting will be a nice break. Easy peasy.

So; when you come to the end of a bulk and start cutting again, you just knock the calories down to a deficit? I had 'walked up' to bulking from my cut, and was wondering if I should 'walk back down' at the end.

JoRocka

different strokes for different folks.

I like to go to maintenance between cut/bulk and bulk/cuts. makes me brain and body not crazy.