Mythical "clean bulk"

Hendrix7

check this out op (you need to watch all 4 parts really)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17EfPCAnAos


Just from personal experience I have always found it very tricky to put on significant muscle mass without some noticeable fat gain also. I prefer to separate my training into blocks of mass gain, maintenance and fat loss instead of trying to stay super lean all the time.

Sarauk2sf

^im sorry but i disagree with your "clean/dirty" bulk definition. Yes, a surplus is a bulk regardless but clean/dirty isnt from the amount of surplus but rather where they come from. I.e. if you are at a 500 calorie surplus but most of it is from fat/carbs that would be considered dirty. Well, at least this is how I interpret it?

Your bulk excess cals should be mainly from carbs (and fats depending on your calories)

Sarauk2sf

check this out op (you need to watch all 4 parts really)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17EfPCAnAos


Just from personal experience I have always found it very tricky to put on significant muscle mass without some noticeable fat gain also. I prefer to separate my training into blocks of mass gain, maintenance and fat loss instead of trying to stay super lean all the time.

Quality info in the vid(s)

mank32

tagged for info & links :flowerforyou:

trojan_bb

No one will be able to give you the actual calorie consumption # needed. It's all trial and error.

I've done a clean bulk for 2 years now. BF has always been between 6% and 10% and weight is now 12-14 lbs higher than at the start and slightly lower BF. It's done by keeping a small surplus over time or days of large surplus and intermittent days of maintenance/slight deficit.

unesemainedecruaute

There are 4 main branches of understanding onto the duality clean/dirty:
1. Amount of surplus.
2. Quality of the food.
3. Gaining of BF.
4. Attitude towards the bulk (nutrition).

It's not that one of them has a major truth in it than the other, but they're just a division we use to characterize the bulk regarding what we consider important (could be one, two or all of them).

OP: In these cases, is useful to characterize the bulk as what we want to achieve (e.g.: low BF gain, healthy nutrition, etc.) intermediately after calling it "clean", so there is no confusion.

mantium999

While this may not be the most useful response, I am terrible at tracking anything. So I make sure my protein is on target, and eat all the food, once I notice I am becoming squishier than I would like (hasn't happened yet, have gained 14 pounds with only a 1" addition to my waistline), then I will have to pay more attention.

3laine75

lulz- not my definition.... just to be clear.

Where did you get it from? Honestly not being combative - just curious as I've really not heard "dirty bulking" described that way either. Since you and TR0berts both agree that is a popular explanation I'd like to read more if you can recall who / where you first heard it.

I agree too as that's what it is - small surplus, clean - large surplus, dirty.

OverDoIt

Wash all cheeseburgers and donuts before stuffing the into your pie hole.

TonyStark30

You wouldn't use MFP for a dirty bulk, you would just eat whatever, lots of it, and Lift, thats how I see the Clean/Dirty discussion.

NRBreit

lulz- not my definition.... just to be clear.

Where did you get it from? Honestly not being combative - just curious as I've really not heard "dirty bulking" described that way either. Since you and TR0berts both agree that is a popular explanation I'd like to read more if you can recall who / where you first heard it.

I agree too as that's what it is - small surplus, clean - large surplus, dirty.

I agree that this is the most common and popular definition. Clean vs. dirty has nothing to do with food quality or food choices. The reason a large surplus is considered 'dirty' is because of the expectation that you will gain more fat weight as a percentage of total weight gained in a given amount of time during the process. For example, if you have the capacity to gain 2 lbs. LBM per month, a 4 pound gain (with 2 lbs. fat) would be considered fairly clean while a 6 pound gain (with 4 lbs. fat) would be considered dirty.

Stoshew71

My definition of "dirty bulk" vs. "clean bulk" would include both quality of foods as well as the amount of calories eaten above maintenance.

First of, to bulk, the goal in my mind is to put on muscle mass while trying to put very little fat on as much as possible. Offcourse there are a couple of different ways to do this: 1) slowly with small increase of calorie excess or 2) quickly with huge calorie excess followed by a cutting phase that includes eating below maintnenance. (bulk/cut/bulk phasing); but more on that in a second.

Second, you need all the tools to buld muscle mass, not just protein. I weigh about 190 lbs (6'2") and my goal is to eat at least 200 g of protein / day. But your body also needs good healthy fats in order to synthesize muscle mass. In my opinion the best source of protein comes from animal products (meat, poultry, fish, milk, eggs), because of the abundance per gram eaten verses the amount of protein found in other sources (i.e. vegatables and legumes). But animal products come at a cost of saturated fat verses the good heathy fat aka essestial fatty acids (EFA). The good fats or EFA's (Linoleic acid and alpha-linolenic acid) are both unsaturated fatty acids that the human body cannot produce on it's own and are vital for muscle development and good all around heart health. So they have to come from outside sources. You may have heard of Omega 3 and Omega 6, these make up your EFA's. Fish and certain legumes are good sources of EFA's.

My goal is to eat mostly lean poultry products and other lean meat sources combined with a lot of fish. I also eat avacados and almonds and cashews which when combined give a good protein to EFA ratio with limited amounts of saturated fat. I also mix protein powder into unsweetened almond milk.

To me, this is the beginning of my definition of "clean bulking". Now throw in finding carb sources that are high in fiber and complex carbohydrate that slow digestion and absorbtion and thus controlling your blood sugar levels. Slow source of carb absortion decreases your blood sugar spikes which in return slows your body's harmone levels in the blood which promotes fat gain. It also controls the "crashing" you feel later on when blood sugar is at a lowered than normal level.

Now last is the amount of calories above maintenance. Your body only needs so much calories. Going above that level too much promotes fat building. But not enough calories puts your body into a canibolistic state as opposed to the anabolic state you seek when muscle building. So it is a touch and go / experiment as you go along kind of deal. That is why certain folks would rather go way over maintenance and do a cut phase later on to reduce the fat that was gained during the bulk phase. Kind of the definition of a "dirty bulk".

So the amount of calories you need to eat and to what ratio of macros will be determined on a lot of factors. Your body's natural ability to recover from strength training (determined by your DNA), the amount and intensity of your training, the quality of foods you are eating, and other factors that I cannot recite at the top of my head.

By the way, I am still learning myself. But to conclude, my defintion of a clean bulk would include something like 500-1000 cals above maintenance with heavy strength training and a good ratio of lean protein, EFA's, good complex carbs, minimal amounts of saturated fat and simple carbs.

A dirty bulk in my opinion would be anything above 1000 cals that is in excess of maintenance, high amounts of protein sources with no regard to saturated or unsaturated fats or quality of carbs whether they are simple or complex. Kind of synomous to the "seafood diet - or I see food and I eat it diet". Just make sure you get your protein in and go way over in cals because we will cut the fat later kind of attitude.

Hendrix7

By the way, I am still learning myself. But to conclude, my defintion of a clean bulk would include something like 500-1000 cals above maintenance with heavy strength training and a good ratio of lean protein, EFA's, good complex carbs, minimal amounts of saturated fat and simple carbs.

you can eat all the clean foods you like but if you are 1000 cals above maintenance on a daily basis you are going to get very fat very fast.

most people will lean bulk on a 200-300 cal surplus.

rybo

With regards to a bulk, clean is a low surplus to attempt to gain as little fat as possible while gaining muscle. Dirty is eating at a big surplus to gain as much as possible with little regard to the fat:muscle ratio. It has nothing to do with food quality other than it's easier to create a large surplus eating foods that are calorie dense and associated with "dirty eating".
This deifinition has been around at least 20+ years when I heard it in the small town gyms I started in.

JoRocka

With regards to a bulk, clean is a low surplus to attempt to gain as little fat as possible while gaining muscle. Dirty is eating at a big surplus to gain as much as possible with little regard to the fat:muscle ratio. It has nothing to do with food quality other than it's easier to create a large surplus eating foods that are calorie dense and associated with "dirty eating".
This deifinition has been around at least 20+ years when I heard it in the small town gyms I started in.

apparently it's now my definition and opinion though.


LOL damn these clean eating people mucking up the definitions!!

SteveJWatson

My definition of "dirty bulk" vs. "clean bulk" would include both quality of foods as well as the amount of calories eaten above maintenance.......


To me, this is the beginning of my definition of "clean bulking". Now throw in finding carb sources that are high in fiber and complex carbohydrate that slow digestion and absorbtion and thus controlling your blood sugar levels. Slow source of carb absortion decreases your blood sugar spikes which in return slows your body's harmone levels in the blood which promotes fat gain. It also controls the "crashing" you feel later on when blood sugar is at a lowered than normal level. ...

Except that insulin is anabolic and you want to repeatedly spike your insulin to build muscle....I think you will find that bodybuilders on gear also often take insulin for this very reason.

Mrsallypants

I've done a dirty bulk quite a few times, such as eating everything and consuming 500 calories or more over maintenance. Muscle develops so slowly while huge amounts of fat can be stored rapidly, and the subsequent half year dieting to burn off the fat becomes a long painful struggle.

Never will I do a Lee Priest dirty bulk again.

Mr_Excitement

^im sorry but i disagree with your "clean/dirty" bulk definition. Yes, a surplus is a bulk regardless but clean/dirty isnt from the amount of surplus but rather where they come from. I.e. if you are at a 500 calorie surplus but most of it is from fat/carbs that would be considered dirty. Well, at least this is how I interpret it?

Exorbitant amounts of protein aren't going to do you any good unless you're doing steroids anyway. A 500 calorie surplus that didn't contain a lot of carbs would almost certainly contain a whole lot of protein that couldn't be synthesized by a natural anyway.

astronomicals

dirty bulks typically only work for those who take drugs... the steroids will amp the muscle during the bulk and things like Clen will aide in the cutting process.. without juice you would have a pretty crappy end result.

astronomicals

vast amounts of protein would be useless... it would just increase gluconeogenesis.

you eat between 1-1.5 grams of protein per pound of BW or LBM
you eat double that in carbs (or more)
and you eat at least the minimum requirements of fat.

theres no magic rule... if there is, thats it..

ETA: quite frankly, you may not even need that much protein. ya need more during a cut than you do during a bulk