Crossfit Sued by Transgender Athlete

SGM_Adonis

Because they won't let her compete in the women's division due to the fact that she was born with a peen. Thoughts?

skullshank

i'll take a swing....

i think this is a pretty clear-cut case.

this isnt a question of allowing her in the womens locker room, of having "female" on her license...

if it is true that the muscle characteristics of the genders differ, then i think this call is the right one.

summertime_girl

I read the article about it, and it said that she's been on hormones for long enough that it doesn't give her an advantage. They also said the Olympics and collegiate levels allow for transgender athletes to compete in their current gender as long as they have completed transition.

Before I read that, I wasn't ok with it, but if the levels of hormones truly have changed her body composition to not give an advantage, then I'm ok.

Madame_Goldbricker

i'll take a swing....

i think this is a pretty clear-cut case.

this isnt a question of allowing her in the womens locker room, of having "female" on her license...

if it is true that the muscle characteristics of the genders differ, then i think this call is the right one.

But if she's undergone the hormone therapy won't that put her on a level playing field with the ladies? Not the men?

*Edited was typing out response as above poster stated that. Yep I agree.

BusyRaeNOTBusty

People who undergo a sex change are treated with large amounts of female hormones removing any hormonal advantage that being born a man would give her. The Olympics allow athletes to compete one year after the change. This sets a major precedent and if Crossfit was smart they would have adopted the Olympic standard. USA Rugby has.

skullshank

I read the article about it, and it said that she's been on hormones for long enough that it doesn't give her an advantage. They also said the Olympics and collegiate levels allow for transgender athletes to compete in their current gender as long as they have completed transition.

Before I read that, I wasn't ok with it, but if the levels of hormones truly have changed her body composition to not give an advantage, then I'm ok.

People who undergo a sex change are treated with large amounts of female hormones removing any hormonal advantage that being born a man would give her. The Olympics allow athletes to compete one year after the change. This sets a major precedent and if Crossfit was smart they would have adopted the Olympic standard. USA Rugby has.

good call.
with that added knowledge of the amount of hormone therapy, if her muscle structure now represents that of a female moreso than a male, then i believe she should be able to compete with the women.

the only thing i know for sure is that she'd whoop me. :drinker:

SGM_Adonis

I read the article about it, and it said that she's been on hormones for long enough that it doesn't give her an advantage. They also said the Olympics and collegiate levels allow for transgender athletes to compete in their current gender as long as they have completed transition.

Before I read that, I wasn't ok with it, but if the levels of hormones truly have changed her body composition to not give an advantage, then I'm ok.

I didn't know about the hormones having that type of effect on a woman. Really shows how clueless I am about transgender conversions. Interesting...I was initially thinking along the same lines as skull.

Okay at the risk of sounding sexist (I cringe at the use of ..."at the risk of..") but anywhooooo....Do any of you think that competitive wise, do men tend to be more competitive than women? Wouldn't that be an unfair advantage? Or is the competitive edge owed to the testosterone levels?

summertime_girl

I don't really think that either gender has the lock on being more competitive. I think it's a personality trait more than anything else.

BusyRaeNOTBusty

I read the article about it, and it said that she's been on hormones for long enough that it doesn't give her an advantage. They also said the Olympics and collegiate levels allow for transgender athletes to compete in their current gender as long as they have completed transition.

Before I read that, I wasn't ok with it, but if the levels of hormones truly have changed her body composition to not give an advantage, then I'm ok.

I didn't know about the hormones having that type of effect on a woman. Really shows how clueless I am about transgender conversions. Interesting...I was initially thinking along the same lines as skull.

Okay at the risk of sounding sexist (I cringe at the use of ..."at the risk of..") but anywhooooo....Do any of you think that competitive wise, do men tend to be more competitive than women? Wouldn't that be an unfair advantage? Or is the competitive edge owed to the testosterone levels?

I'd guess that generally men are more competitive than women (my husband for example will make a competition out of EVERY LITTLE THING). But I have men some very competitive women (who were born female), and I bet a lot of those type of women are drawn to something like Crossfit anyway, so she probably fits right in.

summertime_girl

This is the article I read: http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/07/us/transgender-lawsuit-crossfit/index.html

And I was of the same mindset as Skullshank before I read it.

wheird

If transgender women begin dominating women's sports, we will know for sure I guess.

BusyRaeNOTBusty

If transgender women begin dominating women's sports, we will know for sure I guess.

No we won't because mainstream media doesn't care about women's sports.


:bigsmile:

summertime_girl

And now I have ads at the bottom of my page that say "To meet a Transgender..."

TX_Rhon

And now I have ads at the bottom of my page that say "To meet a Transgender..."

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

elfram2

Chromosomes determine male or female not hormones. This is a very new science that asserts that she has no advantage. I am sure that there are very few if any long term (20-50) year studies on the subject. I am 5' 6" so I knew at a very young age that I would never play in the NBA. I didn't yell discrimination against "shorty" because I was not as tall as the pro players. This person should just learn to enjoy bodybuilding for the sake of body building not for sport.

kethry70

And now I have ads at the bottom of my page that say "To meet a Transgender..."

LMAO

All I know is that I would love to have a body like hers (sans tattoos cause ouchie :P ). I agree that CF should follow Olympic standards

heatherloveslifting

do men tend to be more competitive than women? Wouldn't that be an unfair advantage? Or is the competitive edge owed to the testosterone levels?

Since I had to do my undergrad degree with a bunch of premed females, I'm going with Hell No. :laugh:

dbmata

I read the article about it, and it said that she's been on hormones for long enough that it doesn't give her an advantage. They also said the Olympics and collegiate levels allow for transgender athletes to compete in their current gender as long as they have completed transition.

That's the end of it right there.

I couldn't imagine CF thinking they have more knowledge than the NCAA or IOC.

KatieMae75

I don't really see why she shouldn't be able to complete with the women. Assuming she isn't producing high levels of testosterone, and has been on female hormone replacements, then she's a woman. I'd compete next to her.

The_Enginerd

I read the article about it, and it said that she's been on hormones for long enough that it doesn't give her an advantage. They also said the Olympics and collegiate levels allow for transgender athletes to compete in their current gender as long as they have completed transition.

Before I read that, I wasn't ok with it, but if the levels of hormones truly have changed her body composition to not give an advantage, then I'm ok.

That would have been my biggest question as to whether it's fair. Would having grown up a man with the hormonal differences while developing allow for an unfair advantage. Given the Olympics allow this, I would think no.

Sinisterly

And now I have ads at the bottom of my page that say "To meet a Transgender..."

Oh, my.
I'd be game, but not looking bahaha.

trojan_bb

She still was born and developed with a larger male skeleton and musculature. no hormone therapy will ever bring her to exactly female levels.

It's insane that the Olympics allow transgenders to compete in different classes than their birth gender. Political pandering.

The Olympic Committee only bases their decision on the evidence that muscle mass equalizes after several years of treatment. They do not base their decision on long term studies of strength levels, CNS capacity, and skeletal mass in transgenders. Their are differences pertinent to strength training between men and women beyond simply muscle mass. Yes, skeletal mass decreases over time with treatment. I've yet to see a long term study showing 100% equalization as it relates to strength training though,

the_dude00

Kinda reminds me of Renee Richards from Tennis...

I don't think she should be competing with the women. Let her compete with the men if she wants to compete, those are the chromosomes she has....

the_dude00

I read the article about it, and it said that she's been on hormones for long enough that it doesn't give her an advantage. They also said the Olympics and collegiate levels allow for transgender athletes to compete in their current gender as long as they have completed transition.

That's the end of it right there.

I couldn't imagine CF thinking they have more knowledge than the NCAA or IOC.

I don't think CF is trying to say they have more knowledge than the .......

I think the NCAA and IOC saw Tennis lose that fight with Renne Richars, and did not want to follow suit

sentaruu

and I bet a lot of those type of women are drawn to something like Crossfit anyway, so she probably CROSSfits right in.

FTFY

I think she should be allowed to compete.

trojan_bb

Even crazier, these women are STILL on hormone therapy. It is IMPOSSIBLE to achieve a level of testosterone that is 100% "normal" for a woman to have. Why? Because there is no normal. Every woman and man is different. It is a result of their genetic makeup and changes over time. While on therapy, this level can be controlled and optimized easily. She can be placed on the high end of 'normal'. There is no fairness in that. Hormone optimization is banned for everyone else, but not transgenders. Insane.

There are plenty of doctors who disagree with the IOC's decision as well. There is relatively little research into the effects of steroids (yes, transgenders are on steroids). Most doctors know less than the average person googling steroids. The few that are specialized in the area still don't have the resources and studies to fully understand the effects and long term differences between different hormone levels. Certainly not enough info yet to make policy decisions.

If they are going to allow transgenders to compete in this fashion, they should embrace the inevitable future and allow ALL hormonal supplementation for everyone. Plenty of these guys are taking stuff in the offseason anyways.

KatieMae75

Even crazier, these women are STILL on hormone therapy. It is IMPOSSIBLE to achieve a level of testosterone that is 100% "normal" for a woman to have. Why? Because there is no normal. Every woman and man is different. It is a result of their genetic makeup and changes over time. While on therapy, this level can be controlled and optimized easily. She can be placed on the high end of 'normal'. There is no fairness in that. Hormone optimization is banned for everyone else, but not transgenders. Insane.

There are plenty of doctors who disagree with the IOC's decision as well. There is relatively little research into the effects of steroids (yes, transgenders are on steroids). Most doctors know less than the average person googling steroids. The few that are specialized in the area still don't have the resources and studies to fully understand the effects and long term differences between different hormone levels. Certainly not enough info yet to make policy decisions.

If they are going to allow transgenders to compete in this fashion, they should embrace the inevitable future and allow ALL hormonal supplementation for everyone. Plenty of these guys are taking stuff in the offseason anyways.

What type of steroids are you referring to when you say transgender people are on steroids? If I was told they were on steroids, I would assume it was referring to estrogen, progesterone, or testosterone (in a ftm), being as those are all steroids. Also, testicles are the primary secrete of testosterone (but, obviously not the only one), and they are removed during the transition surgery, therefore, immediately reducing testosterone. There are many cells and hormones that play a role in muscular hypertrophy (GH, Satellite cells, cortisol, IGF...), but in men, testosterone accounts for quite a bit of it. Though there is no two women who will have identical hormone levels, there is an "ideal" range, and being at the high end of that range will not serve as an advantage, as it's still within "normal".

BraveNewdGirl

Even crazier, these women are STILL on hormone therapy. It is IMPOSSIBLE to achieve a level of testosterone that is 100% "normal" for a woman to have. Why? Because there is no normal. Every woman and man is different. It is a result of their genetic makeup and changes over time. While on therapy, this level can be controlled and optimized easily. She can be placed on the high end of 'normal'. There is no fairness in that. Hormone optimization is banned for everyone else, but not transgenders. Insane.

There are plenty of doctors who disagree with the IOC's decision as well. There is relatively little research into the effects of steroids (yes, transgenders are on steroids). Most doctors know less than the average person googling steroids. The few that are specialized in the area still don't have the resources and studies to fully understand the effects and long term differences between different hormone levels. Certainly not enough info yet to make policy decisions.

If they are going to allow transgenders to compete in this fashion, they should embrace the inevitable future and allow ALL hormonal supplementation for everyone. Plenty of these guys are taking stuff in the offseason anyways.

While I'm not shocked to see you, in all of your bigoted glory, spouting off a bunch of broscience to back you up on your crappy, ignorant views, I'm going to tell you that you're wrong because someone needs to.

Statement from Professor Eric Vilain, M.D., Ph.D., Director of the Center for Gender-Based Biology and Chief Medical Genetics in UCLA's Department of Pediatrics:

"Research suggests that androgen deprivation and cross sex hormone treatment in male-to-female transsexuals reduces muscle mass; accordingly, one year of hormone therapy is an appropriate transitional time before a male-to- female student athlete competes on a women's team."

Source: http://www.bilerico.com/2014/03/why_the_rationales_for_barring_trans_athletes_suck.php#hmc4RscXchli4D83.99

More reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormone_replacement_therapy_(male-to-female)
http://www.entirelyamelia.com/2013/12/23/transitioning-changed-runner/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/do-transgender-athletes-have-an-unfair-advantage_b_4918835.html

All of the reasons that you have given are responses based upon a visceral reaction. An ugly, biased visceral reaction. By your logic, Venus Williams (a cis woman) should be disqualified from competing within her gender bracket based upon her bone structure. So please, can you NOT?

trojan_bb

What type of steroids are you referring to when you say transgender people are on steroids? If I was told they were on steroids, I would assume it was referring to estrogen, progesterone, or testosterone (in a ftm), being as those are all steroids. Also, testicles are the primary secrete of testosterone (but, obviously not the only one), and they are removed during the transition surgery, therefore, immediately reducing testosterone. There are many cells and hormones that play a role in muscular hypertrophy (GH, Satellite cells, cortisol, IGF...), but in men, testosterone accounts for quite a bit of it. Though there is no two women who will have identical hormone levels, there is an "ideal" range, and being at the high end of that range will not serve as an advantage, as it's still within "normal".

No, being at the high range of normal as opposed to the low range will confer quite a few advantages. This is well documented in many studies. I'm referring to any steroid used in the transition process. All the hormonal drugs are steroids and affect strength levels.

trojan_bb

Even crazier, these women are STILL on hormone therapy. It is IMPOSSIBLE to achieve a level of testosterone that is 100% "normal" for a woman to have. Why? Because there is no normal. Every woman and man is different. It is a result of their genetic makeup and changes over time. While on therapy, this level can be controlled and optimized easily. She can be placed on the high end of 'normal'. There is no fairness in that. Hormone optimization is banned for everyone else, but not transgenders. Insane.

There are plenty of doctors who disagree with the IOC's decision as well. There is relatively little research into the effects of steroids (yes, transgenders are on steroids). Most doctors know less than the average person googling steroids. The few that are specialized in the area still don't have the resources and studies to fully understand the effects and long term differences between different hormone levels. Certainly not enough info yet to make policy decisions.

If they are going to allow transgenders to compete in this fashion, they should embrace the inevitable future and allow ALL hormonal supplementation for everyone. Plenty of these guys are taking stuff in the offseason anyways.

While I'm not shocked to see you, in all of your bigoted glory, spouting off a bunch of broscience to back you up on your crappy, ignorant views, I'm going to tell you that you're wrong because someone needs to.

Statement from Professor Eric Vilain, M.D., Ph.D., Director of the Center for Gender-Based Biology and Chief Medical Genetics in UCLA's Department of Pediatrics:

"Research suggests that androgen deprivation and cross sex hormone treatment in male-to-female transsexuals reduces muscle mass; accordingly, one year of hormone therapy is an appropriate transitional time before a male-to- female student athlete competes on a women's team."

Source: http://www.bilerico.com/2014/03/why_the_rationales_for_barring_trans_athletes_suck.php#hmc4RscXchli4D83.99

More reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormone_replacement_therapy_(male-to-female)
http://www.entirelyamelia.com/2013/12/23/transitioning-changed-runner/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/do-transgender-athletes-have-an-unfair-advantage_b_4918835.html

All of the reasons that you have given are responses based upon a visceral reaction. An ugly, biased visceral reaction. By your logic, Venus Williams (a cis woman) should be disqualified from competing within her gender bracket based upon her bone structure. So please, can you NOT?

I already acknowledged exactly what you wrote. And please stop your personal bigoted attack. I have quite a bit of knowledge on this topic actually. Far more than you, so lose the condescension..

You've shown a study on muscle mass changes. That''s a given and I've already acknowledged it.

Now please produce a study showing 5, 10, 15, 20 year observations on strength levels, neural capacity, and skeletal structure and mass in transgenders vs their male/female counterparts. Until you have that, there should not be olympic policies allowing this.

---

"I don't know," said Dr. Robin Dea, a psychiatrist at Northern California Kaiser Permanente who has treated transsexuals for 25 years. "We don't have a study available of male-to-female transsexuals who have gone on hormones and maintained a world-class training regimen."

Exactly the point, critics say.

"The big part of the story is that there's no research whatsoever," Connolly said. "What little evidence they have is not on athletic performance. "

http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/Olympics-transgender-quandary-Debate-rages-on-2749169.php#page-2

---

http://mmajunkie.com/2013/03/ask-the-fight-doc-what-are-your-thoughts-on-transgender-mma-fighters/

The question needs to be asked and answered, like I said.

BraveNewdGirl

No, being at the high range of normal as opposed to the low range will confer quite a few advantages. This is well documented in many studies. I'm referring to any steroid used in the transition process. All the hormonal drugs are steroids and affect strength levels.

Not going to read a word, huh? M'kay, stay ignorant.