True? The first 5 lbs gained disappears instantly on a cut?

NRBreit

OP, what is your average daily exercise calorie burn? I'm struggling to understand why at 140 lbs. you need 3,600 cals per day to gain. At the end of the day, you need to eat as much as it takes to get the scale to move, but that calorie level sure seems high.

NRBreit

Now here's the question. I'm at 140-141 right now. First real major goal weight is a shredded 166 lbs. Does that mean I need to hit 171-176 before cutting? That may take...a while. And I don't really want to "permabulk" either. I hear maintenance needs can raise a LOT over time if you do that (because the body gets used to your intake and burns more off). Best to give the body some breaks, I think.

You will know when it's time to cut. If you are naturally lean, you'll just 'feel' fat. And if you're lucky and have a good P-ratio, keep bulking as long as fat % stays in check.

Fithealthyforlife

OP, what is your average daily exercise calorie burn? I'm struggling to understand why at 140 lbs. you need 3,600 cals per day to gain. At the end of the day, you need to eat as much as it takes to get the scale to move, but that calorie level sure seems high.

First, I never said I eat 3600 on a typical day. Don't know where you're getting that from. Right now, it's 3060 calories on a non-exercise day. That doesn't mean I sit on my butt all day long though. I'm not the sort of person who enjoys that. I get achey if I sit too much.

I have no idea how much I'm really burning...but apparently it's more than I thought it was. I have a whole thread on this topic. Apparently it's at least 400 cal per hour.

I do an hour or so of stronglifts about 3x/week. All other intense movement/exercise also gets logged.

Fithealthyforlife

And what's freaky is that in high school (ten years ago), I ate only about 2500 (best guess since I didn't track intake back then) when I lifted and ran track. Of course, I was sore all the time and felt like crap...but I weighed 10 lbs more than I do now.

I feel great. Have tons of energy. And all my bloodwork is perfect.

jofjltncb6

This thread is depressing. I'm on week 7 of my first bulk and I've gained 3-4 lbs. So it's ALL water weight? :grumble:

Not necessarily. The reason people lose that first 5 so quickly (IMHO) is that their cut is almost always necessarily low carb. I didn't intend for my cut to be, but by the time I hit my protein and fat minimum, carbs were necessarily lower than usual (~120ish g, usually). When I transition to *maintenance*, I will see a gain that is mostly water weight...but when I resume a bulk, assuming all else remains equal, I won't necessarily see a water weight increase.

jofjltncb6

I ALWAYS lose 5 pounds in the first few days of a "diet."

Yeah that's what I was thinking. I don't think it is very complicated. We start eating less and our system has less junk in it. It stays that way till we stop dieting. Then our system gets filled up with stuff again, and it looks like we just gained 5 pounds.

But not really.

If by "junk" you mean "glycogen and related fluid", then yeah, I agree.

If by "junk" you mean something else, then no.

ndj1979

Hey Jo,

I accidently maintained at 138-139.5 lbs last month for about 4-6 weeks at 2960 calories on non-workout days and 3160 or so on workout days. I would say that's the high end of my real maintenance range, give-or-take.

Knowing what I now know, I'd say that the most recent increases over the past few weeks are putting me solidly into lean bulk territory now (finally). But it's still not quite enough.

And this whole time I was wondering why I still looked the same, give-or-take, after gaining 8 lbs (it's because 5 lbs was water/glycogen!) And why I only gained about a pound of fat in 7 months of on and off "bulking" (b/c it wasn't enough food). Now I know!

But you know something...it was a lot easier to increase calories slowly over time! And I have my maintenance range pretty figured out. So there is a positive side. And hopefully I'm near the end of needing to add 100-200 calories for every 2-3 lbs of gain!

maybe you should just eat 3160 every day…?

Fithealthyforlife

Hey Jo,

I accidently maintained at 138-139.5 lbs last month for about 4-6 weeks at 2960 calories on non-workout days and 3160 or so on workout days. I would say that's the high end of my real maintenance range, give-or-take.

Knowing what I now know, I'd say that the most recent increases over the past few weeks are putting me solidly into lean bulk territory now (finally). But it's still not quite enough.

And this whole time I was wondering why I still looked the same, give-or-take, after gaining 8 lbs (it's because 5 lbs was water/glycogen!) And why I only gained about a pound of fat in 7 months of on and off "bulking" (b/c it wasn't enough food). Now I know!

But you know something...it was a lot easier to increase calories slowly over time! And I have my maintenance range pretty figured out. So there is a positive side. And hopefully I'm near the end of needing to add 100-200 calories for every 2-3 lbs of gain!

maybe you should just eat 3160 every day…?

Yes! That's exactly what I've started doing...adding another hundred on non-exercise days as of today in fact. That will make a net gain of about 50 cal per day. If after another week it's still not enough with the added 400 per week, I'll increase more. And so-on. I feel like I'm doing a chemical titration experiment! Or maybe I'll increase by 100 every single day to start with! I feel like my life the past few months is about increasing calories every so often!

Been eating 3460 on lifting days, though...for a couple of weeks now. So maybe just increasing to 3260 on off-days is the best bet...and then eat back any other burns on top of that. That'd be another 600 cal per week!

mailroomclerk

What about your workouts and daily activity? Usually the biggest dudes in the gym just get it done and sit on it. Muscle failure, eat and rest. Not even cardio. Hypertrophy (8-12 rep range) seems to be optimal for size. What are your goals? If you're just doing chest and arms or something then it's going to take a while so make sure your workout split is good.

It doesn't have to be that complicated for a bulk. You just want to have x amount of body fat while weighing more, confirmation that it's muscle weight added. Eat like a horse and pack on the pounds, fat included and throw up some weight you've never done before. Then do a slow cut (I'm doing one now). Bulks are supposed to be fun. Good luck, man!

Fithealthyforlife

What about your workouts and daily activity? Usually the biggest dudes in the gym just get it done and sit on it. Muscle failure, eat and rest. Not even cardio. Hypertrophy (8-12 rep range) seems to be optimal for size. What are your goals? If you're just doing chest and arms or something then it's going to take a while so make sure your workout split is good.

It doesn't have to be that complicated for a bulk. You just want to have x amount of body fat while weighing more, confirmation that it's muscle weight added. Eat like a horse and pack on the pounds, fat included and throw up some weight you've never done before. Then do a slow cut (I'm doing one now). Bulks are supposed to be fun. Good luck, man!

Thanks! Not much cardio right now (actually none) but that'll change as there's yardwork to do...trust me. That means eating back more cardio calories.

I'm actually not doing hypertrophy training right now. I'm doing stronglifts, which is geared toward strength. After I get to a certain point with this, I will switch to hypertrophy. I plan to go back and forth between the two every few months.

Fithealthyforlife

Upped by 100 cal yesterday; weighed in the lowest I've been in the past 2 weeks this morning. A pound and a half less than yesterday.

So...once I find the right calorie range to consistently gain 1/2 to 1 lb every week or so, I should just be able to eat that amount...and no longer have to increase by 100 calories every 3 lbs or so???

JoRocka

So...once I find the right calorie range to consistently gain 1/2 to 1 lb every week or so, I should just be able to eat that amount...and no longer have to increase by 100 calories every 3 lbs or so???

yes- ish.

As you get bigger and the metabolism jumps up- you probably need to increase as well. Gain is like loss- meaning NOT LINEAR.

You'll probably bulk just fine at a certain # for a few weeks- or even a month or two- and then you'll need to push upwards. It's a range and it's a moving target- the bigger you get the more you have to eat- so as you gain- you have to push that upper limit up as well- same when you are losing- as you lose- that "losing" number becomes maintenance and then you have to drop calories to keep the trend downward.

Fithealthyforlife

So...once I find the right calorie range to consistently gain 1/2 to 1 lb every week or so, I should just be able to eat that amount...and no longer have to increase by 100 calories every 3 lbs or so???

yes- ish.

As you get bigger and the metabolism jumps up- you probably need to increase as well. Gain is like loss- meaning NOT LINEAR.

You'll probably bulk just fine at a certain # for a few weeks- or even a month or two- and then you'll need to push upwards. It's a range and it's a moving target- the bigger you get the more you have to eat- so as you gain- you have to push that upper limit up as well- same when you are losing- as you lose- that "losing" number becomes maintenance and then you have to drop calories to keep the trend downward.

I get that. But it's not going to be a moving target *just* from eating more (assuming no gain for a week or two), right??? Sometimes it seems like that's how it's been. But I know what the real explanation for the slow gains is...thanks to you all.

likitisplit

So...once I find the right calorie range to consistently gain 1/2 to 1 lb every week or so, I should just be able to eat that amount...and no longer have to increase by 100 calories every 3 lbs or so???

yes- ish.

As you get bigger and the metabolism jumps up- you probably need to increase as well. Gain is like loss- meaning NOT LINEAR.

You'll probably bulk just fine at a certain # for a few weeks- or even a month or two- and then you'll need to push upwards. It's a range and it's a moving target- the bigger you get the more you have to eat- so as you gain- you have to push that upper limit up as well- same when you are losing- as you lose- that "losing" number becomes maintenance and then you have to drop calories to keep the trend downward.

Damn. I totally forgot that getting fat increases your metabolism. Well, I knew that but didn't associate it with bulking. Thanks for that!

Fithealthyforlife

So...once I find the right calorie range to consistently gain 1/2 to 1 lb every week or so, I should just be able to eat that amount...and no longer have to increase by 100 calories every 3 lbs or so???

yes- ish.

As you get bigger and the metabolism jumps up- you probably need to increase as well. Gain is like loss- meaning NOT LINEAR.

You'll probably bulk just fine at a certain # for a few weeks- or even a month or two- and then you'll need to push upwards. It's a range and it's a moving target- the bigger you get the more you have to eat- so as you gain- you have to push that upper limit up as well- same when you are losing- as you lose- that "losing" number becomes maintenance and then you have to drop calories to keep the trend downward.

Damn. I totally forgot that getting fat increases your metabolism. Well, I knew that but didn't associate it with bulking. Thanks for that!

I read in studies that most of the change is due to LBM. I think very little is due to the fat itself compared to LBM. Most people lose substantial LBM when dieting...they simply don't lift weights.

NRBreit

So...once I find the right calorie range to consistently gain 1/2 to 1 lb every week or so, I should just be able to eat that amount...and no longer have to increase by 100 calories every 3 lbs or so???

yes- ish.

As you get bigger and the metabolism jumps up- you probably need to increase as well. Gain is like loss- meaning NOT LINEAR.

You'll probably bulk just fine at a certain # for a few weeks- or even a month or two- and then you'll need to push upwards. It's a range and it's a moving target- the bigger you get the more you have to eat- so as you gain- you have to push that upper limit up as well- same when you are losing- as you lose- that "losing" number becomes maintenance and then you have to drop calories to keep the trend downward.

I get that. But it's not going to be a moving target *just* from eating more (assuming no gain for a week or two), right??? Sometimes it seems like that's how it's been. But I know what the real explanation for the slow gains is...thanks to you all.

I had to increase cals after gaining approx. 10 lbs. I bumped it 200-300 to get the scale moving again. For me, the more I gain, the slower the gains come, even with increased cals.

Fithealthyforlife

So...once I find the right calorie range to consistently gain 1/2 to 1 lb every week or so, I should just be able to eat that amount...and no longer have to increase by 100 calories every 3 lbs or so???

yes- ish.

As you get bigger and the metabolism jumps up- you probably need to increase as well. Gain is like loss- meaning NOT LINEAR.

You'll probably bulk just fine at a certain # for a few weeks- or even a month or two- and then you'll need to push upwards. It's a range and it's a moving target- the bigger you get the more you have to eat- so as you gain- you have to push that upper limit up as well- same when you are losing- as you lose- that "losing" number becomes maintenance and then you have to drop calories to keep the trend downward.

I get that. But it's not going to be a moving target *just* from eating more (assuming no gain for a week or two), right??? Sometimes it seems like that's how it's been. But I know what the real explanation for the slow gains is...thanks to you all.

I had to increase cals after gaining approx. 10 lbs. I bumped it 200-300 to get the scale moving again. For me, the more I gain, the slower the gains come, even with increased cals.

Thanks.

Well, considering when I started I was eating in the low 2000s (and losing LBM), my maintenance range is apparently wide. I may just bite the bullet and increase by a total of 200 more calories over the next week. I don't want to prolong this anymore. Proper meal spacing helps with getting it all in. Until yesterday, I was usually cramming the last 2000 cal (2/3) into the last 4-5 hours of the day!