How can a type II diabetic gain muscle?

Fithealthyforlife

This thread got me thinking:

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1232017-cure-for-diabetes

There are type II diabetics who are thin, and could use more muscle. In fact, there is evidence in research that gaining muscle can improve insulin sensitivity.

But it's a paradox. Type II diabetics are told to avoid weight gain. They're told to eat less. But to gain muscle, a thin person has to gain weight. So how would someone in that situation gain muscle/weight without putting themselves at additional risk by increasing calories?

ejdp254

Bump to see if anyone knows

TylerAvenger

Have you talked to a doctor about it? That would be your safest bet since a medical issue is involved.

OhCora

Putting on muscle is as simple as doing more weight bearing exercise and eating more protein. The risk you talk about for diabetics is when they put on fat weight, not muscle mass. Eating nutritious foods, with healthy fats, avoiding too much sugar (and of course monitoring that closely) is especially important for a Diabetic.

alecno

Type I diabetic here trying to gain weight - I have to care about my insulin levels and blood sugar MUCH more than any type II. It is all about personal control of your illness. They might have to check their sugar more and supplement with insulin as needed, but nothing is preventing them from gaining healthy mass.

Fithealthyforlife

Type I diabetic here trying to gain weight - I have to care about my insulin levels and blood sugar MUCH more than any type II. It is all about personal control of your illness. They might have to check their sugar more and supplement with insulin as needed, but nothing is preventing them from gaining healthy mass.

Have you run into ill-informed healthcare professionals or nutritionists who have discouraged you from gaining weight with type I?

Type II is in almost every family. I feel I can prevent it in myself by working out over a lifetime...but I still would like to know *how* people with type II who are underweight and want to bulk up are actually going about it. Not every type II diabetic is fat. But unfortunately, even many of the thinner people with the condition are incorrectly told to lose weight, or at least not to eat much. Healthcare professionals seem to forget that muscle gain in a thin person requires weight gain and increased intake. If you put such a person into a deficit, they will lose more muscle, further hampering the situation.

AlwaysInMotion

Putting on muscle is as simple as doing more weight bearing exercise and eating more protein. The risk you talk about for diabetics is when they put on fat weight, not muscle mass. Eating nutritious foods, with healthy fats, avoiding too much sugar (and of course monitoring that closely) is especially important for a Diabetic.

^^^ This x10.

GlucernaBrand

You're right that gaining muscle requires strength training and adequate protein intake, and both exercise and increasing muscle mass will help decrease insulin resistance and improve overall blood sugar control. Gaining muscle mass isn't easy, and it can take a few weeks or months to really see progress. As others have said, optimum blood sugar control is also key in gaining muscle, because when blood sugar levels are too high your body isn't utilizing energy efficiently. I really like the book "The Diabetic Athletes Handbook" by Sheri Colberg for more information and ideas for people with both T1 and T2. ~Lynn /Glucerna

j6o4

Lil boosie is diabetic and he went to jail and come out jacked.

Fithealthyforlife

Anyone with type I might be interested in this:

http://diabeteshealth.com/read/2008/09/22/5079/scrawny-boy-with-type-1-diabetes-becomes-mr--universe/

outofworkpediatrician

type 2 diabetics can gain weight and build muscles if their blood sugar is well controlled. they are usually asked to loose weight, if they are over weight, if they are thin or normal weight, weight loss is never advised. insulin is an anabolic hormone, when a person's blood sugar is normal and insulin sensitivity is high, their insulin will make use of the substrates (carbohydrates or proteins available) to make muscle as needed. but type 2 diabetics need to make sure they are exercising and eating consistently so as to avoid huge fluctuations in blood sugar. having a tight control of blood sugar is the key for gaining weight with muscles.

Fithealthyforlife

type 2 diabetics can gain weight and build muscles if their blood sugar is well controlled. they are usually asked to loose weight, if they are over weight, if they are thin or normal weight, weight loss is never advised. insulin is an anabolic hormone, when a person's blood sugar is normal and insulin sensitivity is high, their insulin will make use of the substrates (carbohydrates or proteins available) to make muscle as needed. but type 2 diabetics need to make sure they are exercising and eating consistently so as to avoid huge fluctuations in blood sugar. having a tight control of blood sugar is the key for gaining weight with muscles.

So, what if (I'm assuming you're a medical doctor from your name) you had an adult patient (I know you're a pediatrician, but nonetheless) who was type II, and getting into hardcore lifting...and had to eat at least a 500-calorie surplus to bulk...? How would this person do it in a safe way? Would they just eat more of what they were already eating and keep tracking it carefully?

LKArgh

Gaining muscle is not the same as becoming a body builder and trying to bulk and it does not have to involve huge amounts of calories or gaining 100 lbs of muscle. Diabetics are encourage to exercise so I do not understand completely the question. If the question is whether a dr would encourage a diabetic to bulk, as in hardcore body building, tons of protein shakes, high fat diet for bulking etc, honestly I doubt any dr would encourage anyone to do this.

BigGuy47

What about using fat instead of carbs to hit your calorie goal? No risk of spiking your bgl. I suppose the problem would be reduced energy levels affecting your work outs because of the limited carbs.

I'm T2 and bulking can be challenging. To control my T2 I dramatically changed my diet (lowering carbs). I've done strength training on regular basis for the past year. I've have seen changes, but progress has been very slow. Given my metal barriers to having a large calorie surplus, I'm more likely recomping or simply maintaining rather than bulking.

I'm OK with slow and steady progress, I'm a patient person. The most important thing is that my bgl is in check.

Rocbola

Easy: Eat a whole foods, plant based diet, with minimal fats so that you don't have intramyocellupar lipid preventing your insulin from getting energy into your muscle cells. Exercise. Recover. Repeat. Eat enough greens, beans, lentils, and fruit to repair your muscles.

Fithealthyforlife

Easy: Eat a whole foods, plant based diet, with minimal fats so that you don't have intramyocellupar lipid preventing your insulin from getting energy into your muscle cells. Exercise. Recover. Repeat. Eat enough greens, beans, lentils, and fruit to repair your muscles.

Wow, finally another person who has heard of intramyocellular lipids! I read about this when I did a research report for a class last year. It really is one of the leys to solving the type II diabetes puzzle.

However...Many people are not fully seeing the question...

The question is specifically about a person who has type II and is building mass. There was one response from someone in that position, which was pretty useful.

But now we're going down the road of "bulking is probably unhealthy for everyone". That wasn't the intent here. If someone is going to gain weight, they're going to need a lot of calories.

In my case, there is some type II in my family. So I figure it's best to gain my mass as soon as possible while I'm still young so I'm not subjecting my body to tons of metabolic strain later when it might have difficulty handling that. I'm sure there are many people in this situation. But in order to gain weight, I have to eat over 3000 calories net.

If I were already diabetic though, how on earth would I do that without hurting myself? I'm sure there are actually people in that situation.

Also, I would hope that eating this much to gain weight now won't increase my chance of developing the disorder later. It's a paradox...people who are prone to it need to gain muscle. But to gain muscle, you have to eat a lot...a behavior which supposedly promotes diabetes due to metabolic strain.

It seems no one has the answer. That's very unfortunate for people who are in the situation.

Makhai_

In for answers....... Great question!

RaspberryKeytoneBoondoggle

Is it common for a doctor to tell a person who is of normal weight or below with type two diabetes to watch their weight? Also, when gaining muscle, isn't a five pound muscle gain pretty huge and impressive over a year? I'm not sure of the answers. I do know that when I was 29 years old and 180 pounds (pregnant) with gestational diabetes, my diabetic nurse told me that if I don't keep my weight down I will definitely have type two diabetes by the time I reach 40. I didn't do much research, but I did heed her advice, and kept my weight about ten pounds or less over my BMI. I guess I interpreted "keep your weight down" as within a certain range

Btw, I also made sure I ate protein at every meal. Also, as a side note and off topic, (sorry), this nurse was morbidly obese and had type two diabetes herself, but she was very influential in my life and I am grateful that she had the guts to march into my hospital room after my baby was born and wag her finger at me:)

EchoDelta1013

Saved for later

usmcmp

I think you are mistaken that a surplus to bulk has to be at least 500 calories. Also, you keep saying weight when you should be saying fat. There are several powerlifters I know who have type II. They monitor their levels closely.

One sets national and world records. He hit 512 pounds for bench press at the Utah State Powerlifting Championship and will be competing at the WPC World Cup this year. This is what he has to say about how he gains mass with type II:

I focused on pre-hab, more protein intake, more sets using heavier weight, incorporated deadlifting and using less insulin to control my diabetes. Although I believe I look soft and in general do not like my appearance, it doesn't matter, I was stronger and less diabetic complications.

Fithealthyforlife

I think you are mistaken that a surplus to bulk has to be at least 500 calories. Also, you keep saying weight when you should be saying fat. There are several powerlifters I know who have type II. They monitor their levels closely.

One sets national and world records. He hit 512 pounds for bench press at the Utah State Powerlifting Championship and will be competing at the WPC World Cup this year. This is what he has to say about how he gains mass with type II:

I focused on pre-hab, more protein intake, more sets using heavier weight, incorporated deadlifting and using less insulin to control my diabetes. Although I believe I look soft and in general do not like my appearance, it doesn't matter, I was stronger and less diabetic complications.

Well, I'm going by my own experience. I'm trying to find an optimal surplus, and it's north of 500 cal to gain half a pound a week. If I were diabetic, wouldn't that be dangerous?

But you're right. I said "weight". And I should have said "fat". But you know what? everyone uses the word "weight". In fact, muscle gain that is also weight gain is often discouraged...just because it's weight gain. Our society is obsessed with "weight" just as much as it is with "fat"...at least that is how I see it. We use BMI too much, when we should be using a combination of BMI and FFMI.

And thanks for the quote, too. That's a great tidbit there. I hope other people in a similar situation to him can learn a bit from his perspective.

Fithealthyforlife

Is it common for a doctor to tell a person who is of normal weight or below with type two diabetes to watch their weight? Also, when gaining muscle, isn't a five pound muscle gain pretty huge and impressive over a year? I'm not sure of the answers. I do know that when I was 29 years old and 180 pounds (pregnant) with gestational diabetes, my diabetic nurse told me that if I don't keep my weight down I will definitely have type two diabetes by the time I reach 40. I didn't do much research, but I did heed her advice, and kept my weight about ten pounds or less over my BMI. I guess I interpreted "keep your weight down" as within a certain range

Btw, I also made sure I ate protein at every meal. Also, as a side note and off topic, (sorry), this nurse was morbidly obese and had type two diabetes herself, but she was very influential in my life and I am grateful that she had the guts to march into my hospital room after my baby was born and wag her finger at me:)

Thanks for the perspective! I have heard the same thing about gestational DM: increased risk for type II later, especially if things go out of whack.

As far as a 5-lb gain in muscle per year...no, honestly that's extremely low for a guy who has just started and is at a low bodyweight and muscle mass level. It means the person probably isn't eating enough/eating properly (though it could be a training or recuperation issue, too...if they are gaining weight on a surplus, but not muscle).

Then again, maybe very slow gains are better for a type II diabetic. I guess it depends how much time the person has in which to gain muscle before the disorder would have progressed to a point where it places a serious constriction on their health.

But for the sake of this topic, I'm assuming the person in question is not obese, and is at a low normal weight...and that their diet is already healthy. Such a person would not have a severe case of diabetes type II, in all likelihood.

But there are people in that boat, and this question is geared specifically to them...whether they were never obese, or were obese in the past and lost weight. Actually, it's geared to the subset who wants to build 20+ lbs of muscle.

outofworkpediatrician

So, what if (I'm assuming you're a medical doctor from your name) you had an adult patient (I know you're a pediatrician, but nonetheless) who was type II, and getting into hardcore lifting...and had to eat at least a 500-calorie surplus to bulk...? How would this person do it in a safe way? Would they just eat more of what they were already eating and keep tracking it carefully?

exactly. keeping track of how much you exercise and how much you are eating and regular blood sugar checking to keep track of your blood sugar is the key. even though for simplicity you can say eat more of what you are eating, you probably need guidance by a nutritionist, when you are into heavy lifting, and muscle build up, its advisable to increase the protein intake, and not to increase the carbohydrate content of you food too much. also when you have high calorie spending, you would be advised to eat more complex carbs, which will keep your blood sugar steady than simple carbs like sugars which causes more blood sugar fluctuations.

Hearts_2015

interesting...be back to read later

6ftamazon

Subbing for an interesting read. I'm type 1 diabetic and also curious about this

albertabeefy

I'm a Type II diabetic who maintains a very tight control on BG levels ... (I secrete very little insulin - and thus am very cautious with my CHO intake.)

I've had to go through this the last few years ... I atrophied greatly from a lot of bed-rest due to spinal issues and am still working at building mass, trying to reclaim some of what I used to have.

For me I go through both bulking and cutting stages.

When bulking I get close to 30% of my calories from protein but still chose to stay low-carb (under 10% of calories - this is what *I* need to maintain BG control). The rest of my intake is fat. Yes, I always eat a slight surplus when bulking, around 500-700 calories a day additional.

As far as gaining weight (ie; getting fat) - when doing my bulking I start at around 9% bodyfat and work my way up to 15%. I simply won't go higher. Unfortunately when I add fat mass, it tends to be visceral, which is the least healthy - and impacts insulin sensitivity the most - so I refuse to get above 15% bodyfat.

Once I hit 15% I start dieting to reduce bodyfat to my preferred levels. What I find once I've dieted back down to 9 or 10% is that *typically* during a bulking stage the NET result is I've added about a pound of of muscle - not much, but it's something. I typically do this 2 to 3 times a year - so I'm actually putting on a whopping 3 lbs of lean mass per year.

I personally won't add as much mass as some others as 1) I'm nearing 50 years old now, and 2) I produce very little insulin naturally - and it's the 2nd-most anabolic hormone.

FYI when I diet back down to where I look and feel best, I reduce my protein intake to 20-25% of my calories.

Fithealthyforlife

I'm a Type II diabetic who maintains a very tight control on BG levels ... (I secrete very little insulin - and thus am very cautious with my CHO intake.)

I've had to go through this the last few years ... I atrophied greatly from a lot of bed-rest due to spinal issues and am still working at building mass, trying to reclaim some of what I used to have.

For me I go through both bulking and cutting stages.

When bulking I get close to 30% of my calories from protein but still chose to stay low-carb (under 10% of calories - this is what *I* need to maintain BG control). The rest of my intake is fat. Yes, I always eat a slight surplus when bulking, around 500-700 calories a day additional.

As far as gaining weight (ie; getting fat) - when doing my bulking I start at around 9% bodyfat and work my way up to 15%. I simply won't go higher. Unfortunately when I add fat mass, it tends to be visceral, which is the least healthy - and impacts insulin sensitivity the most - so I refuse to get above 15% bodyfat.

Once I hit 15% I start dieting to reduce bodyfat to my preferred levels. What I find once I've dieted back down to 9 or 10% is that *typically* during a bulking stage the NET result is I've added about a pound of of muscle - not much, but it's something. I typically do this 2 to 3 times a year - so I'm actually putting on a whopping 3 lbs of lean mass per year.

I personally won't add as much mass as some others as 1) I'm nearing 50 years old now, and 2) I produce very little insulin naturally - and it's the 2nd-most anabolic hormone.

FYI when I diet back down to where I look and feel best, I reduce my protein intake to 20-25% of my calories.

Excellent response! This proves it can be done. And it tells people how you're doing it effectively and safely. Thank you.

It also seems that having type II itself decreases ability to gain muscle. This makes sense, because the insulin is not being used at would be in a person without type II due to decreased sensitivity.

But I have also read that the greater your muscle mass, the higher your insulin sensitivity. So each pound of muscle that you add may be helping to slow the progression of the disorder! It might actually get easier to add muscle as your sensitivity improves, too! (Just conjecture on my part...please let us know how it goes over the next few months and years.)

raggiemom

There's a group on here for type 2 diabetics...you might want to check it out. I haven't read all the posts but this topic might be covered there.

heybales

Well, I'm going by my own experience. I'm trying to find an optimal surplus, and it's north of 500 cal to gain half a pound a week. If I were diabetic, wouldn't that be dangerous?

Then the math is wrong somewhere.

500 cal above true maintenance would be 1 lb weekly - if you are only seeing 1/2 lb, then you have not really figured out your maintenance correctly.

If truly gaining 1/2 weekly, then your real maintenance is 250 below what you are eating on average.
No way around that.

And I realize you say gaining, but it is muscle after all with minimal fat, or at least a healthy ratio of it still.

The bigger problem I see as was mentioned, since insulin is an anabolic hormone, then levels need to be very correct to really benefit from it.

And as far as eating more, adding 250 extra calories to the whole day, like a mere 60 extra calories to 4 meals during the day - that's nothing, you should be able to adjust things easily there.

If the person knows about how many calories starts causing problems no matter the amount of carbs in the meal, then you keep the total calories per meal at that level, and add an extra meal somewhere.

And you eating extra now would be a potential future problem if you were not exercising, taking in lots of carbs, and overweight.
But you aren't any of those.

So you are not in a catch 22. Someone already there is in a slower catch 22 depending on how badly their disease has progressed.

6ftamazon

I'm a Type II diabetic who maintains a very tight control on BG levels ... (I secrete very little insulin - and thus am very cautious with my CHO intake.)

I've had to go through this the last few years ... I atrophied greatly from a lot of bed-rest due to spinal issues and am still working at building mass, trying to reclaim some of what I used to have.

For me I go through both bulking and cutting stages.

When bulking I get close to 30% of my calories from protein but still chose to stay low-carb (under 10% of calories - this is what *I* need to maintain BG control). The rest of my intake is fat. Yes, I always eat a slight surplus when bulking, around 500-700 calories a day additional.

As far as gaining weight (ie; getting fat) - when doing my bulking I start at around 9% bodyfat and work my way up to 15%. I simply won't go higher. Unfortunately when I add fat mass, it tends to be visceral, which is the least healthy - and impacts insulin sensitivity the most - so I refuse to get above 15% bodyfat.

Once I hit 15% I start dieting to reduce bodyfat to my preferred levels. What I find once I've dieted back down to 9 or 10% is that *typically* during a bulking stage the NET result is I've added about a pound of of muscle - not much, but it's something. I typically do this 2 to 3 times a year - so I'm actually putting on a whopping 3 lbs of lean mass per year.

I personally won't add as much mass as some others as 1) I'm nearing 50 years old now, and 2) I produce very little insulin naturally - and it's the 2nd-most anabolic hormone.

FYI when I diet back down to where I look and feel best, I reduce my protein intake to 20-25% of my calories.

Excellent response! This proves it can be done. And it tells people how you're doing it effectively and safely. Thank you.

It also seems that having type II itself decreases ability to gain muscle. This makes sense, because the insulin is not being used at would be in a person without type II due to decreased sensitivity.

But I have also read that the greater your muscle mass, the higher your insulin sensitivity. So each pound of muscle that you add may be helping to slow the progression of the disorder! It might actually get easier to add muscle as your sensitivity improves, too! (Just conjecture on my part...please let us know how it goes over the next few months and years.)

Definitely true...when I was lifting weights a few years ago, I hardly took any insulin. I averaged 3 units per 30g of carbs. Now it's 7 (although better than the 10 I started with)

albertabeefy

But I have also read that the greater your muscle mass, the higher your insulin sensitivity. So each pound of muscle that you add may be helping to slow the progression of the disorder! It might actually get easier to add muscle as your sensitivity improves, too! (Just conjecture on my part...please let us know how it goes over the next few months and years.)

Definitely true...when I was lifting weights a few years ago, I hardly took any insulin. I averaged 3 units per 30g of carbs. Now it's 7 (although better than the 10 I started with)

I'm not sure it's the muscle-mass, OR the interval-nature of weight-training. We already know from research that BOTH weight training and HIIT (High-Intensity-Interval-Training) improve insulin-sensitivity... but interestingly, improvements in both seem to happen before muscle-composition changes actually take place.

As several research trials have shown insulin-sensitivity improvements without muscle-composition changes, I'd suggest it's the intense-interval nature of the regular exercise, rather than the addition of muscle mass. Just my thoughts ...