Deltoid and trap activation article

wheird

Just wanted to share an article that I just read by Bret Contreras regarding shoulder and trap activation during different exercises.

www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/inside_the_muscles_best_shoulders_and_trap_exercises

SunofaBeach14

bump

Derp_Diggler

In for later

RaggedyPond

Same

Myhaloslipped

This is something I have been trying to pay more attention to lately. I am going to read this later.

BamaBreezeNSaltAire

Gotta read this. Bump for later.

vjohn04

Good information, but aren't many people asking for a shoulder / rotator cuff injury with a behind the neck press?

Maybe with a lighter load?

a_stronger_me13

This all makes me feel a lot better about the newest revision I made to my accessories on strict press days.

MapleFlavouredMaiden

Love Bret. Thanks.

LolBroScience

tagging

Lofteren

Bret Contreras' obviously knows a lot about exercise physiology but I think he's lost touch with what strength training is really about. For example, this article could have been written as follows:

Repeatedly lift really heavy siht over your head. The end.

ironanimal

Good information, but aren't many people asking for a shoulder / rotator cuff injury with a behind the neck press?

Maybe with a lighter load?

If you keep your form strict throughout the movement, it is safe, but most people have sloppy form or load up too much weight.

Sarauk2sf

Tagged to read later.

ShellyBell999

Bookmarked for Night-time reading

SaintGiff

Link took me to a forum, not an article.

Cherimoose

This article explains why EMG studies like his can be misleading:

http://markyoungtrainingsystems.com/2010/01/emg-for-exercise-recommendations/

Bret Contreras' obviously knows a lot about exercise physiology but I think he's lost touch with what strength training is really about. For example, this article could have been written as follows:

Repeatedly lift really heavy siht over your head. The end.

LOL, he does overthink things. But knowing the best exercises for activating certain muscles could come in handy for bodybuilders. Unfortunately he seems to ignore machines. Machines are excellent for hypertrophy, and in many cases, probably superior to freeweights.

wheird

Good information, but aren't many people asking for a shoulder / rotator cuff injury with a behind the neck press?

Maybe with a lighter load?

Perhaps, but I believe most injuries are the result of bad form and/or poor mobility.

But ultimately if you feel something is unsafe you can choose a safer, but less "optimal" exercise.

Lofteren

This article explains why EMG studies like his can be misleading:

http://markyoungtrainingsystems.com/2010/01/emg-for-exercise-recommendations/

Bret Contreras' obviously knows a lot about exercise physiology but I think he's lost touch with what strength training is really about. For example, this article could have been written as follows:

Repeatedly lift really heavy siht over your head. The end.

LOL, he does overthink things. But knowing the best exercises for activating certain muscles could come in handy for bodybuilders. Unfortunately he seems to ignore machines. Machines are excellent for hypertrophy, and in many cases, probably superior to freeweights.

There's no way to correct you without sounding like a **** so I'll just go ahead and do it.

Machines are under no circumstances superior to freeweights, period.

EMG studies are unreliable in a kinesiology/exercise physiology laboratory because they use surface recording electrodes. EMG's performed in a neurophysiology laboratory use concentric needle electrodes and are amazingly accurate; down to the exact number of motor units.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

feralX

This article explains why EMG studies like his can be misleading:

http://markyoungtrainingsystems.com/2010/01/emg-for-exercise-recommendations/

Bret Contreras' obviously knows a lot about exercise physiology but I think he's lost touch with what strength training is really about. For example, this article could have been written as follows:

Repeatedly lift really heavy siht over your head. The end.

LOL, he does overthink things. But knowing the best exercises for activating certain muscles could come in handy for bodybuilders. Unfortunately he seems to ignore machines. Machines are excellent for hypertrophy, and in many cases, probably superior to freeweights.

There's no way to correct you without sounding like a **** so I'll just go ahead and do it.

Machines are under no circumstances superior to freeweights, period.

EMG studies are unreliable in a kinesiology/exercise physiology laboratory because they use surface recording electrodes. EMG's performed in a neurophysiology laboratory use concentric needle electrodes and are amazingly accurate; down to the exact number of motor units.

RE: "Machines are under no circumstances superior to freeweights, period."

Depends what your trying to accomplish, sometimes cables are superior to free weights. Gravity only pulls in one direction, cables you can manipulate the line of pull to target muscles differently. Plus there's the benefit of constant tension with cables that you can't always duplicate with free weights. A balanced mix of both is the best approach IMO.

TheEffort

bump.

Lofteren

This article explains why EMG studies like his can be misleading:

http://markyoungtrainingsystems.com/2010/01/emg-for-exercise-recommendations/

Bret Contreras' obviously knows a lot about exercise physiology but I think he's lost touch with what strength training is really about. For example, this article could have been written as follows:

Repeatedly lift really heavy siht over your head. The end.

LOL, he does overthink things. But knowing the best exercises for activating certain muscles could come in handy for bodybuilders. Unfortunately he seems to ignore machines. Machines are excellent for hypertrophy, and in many cases, probably superior to freeweights.

There's no way to correct you without sounding like a **** so I'll just go ahead and do it.

Machines are under no circumstances superior to freeweights, period.

EMG studies are unreliable in a kinesiology/exercise physiology laboratory because they use surface recording electrodes. EMG's performed in a neurophysiology laboratory use concentric needle electrodes and are amazingly accurate; down to the exact number of motor units.

RE: "Machines are under no circumstances superior to freeweights, period."

Depends what your trying to accomplish, sometimes cables are superior to free weights. Gravity only pulls in one direction, cables you can manipulate the line of pull to target muscles differently. Plus there's the benefit of constant tension with cables that you can't always duplicate with free weights. A balanced mix of both is the best approach IMO.

Whoa....

Educate yourself brother.

http://breakingmuscle.com/strength-conditioning/new-study-pits-barbell-squats-against-leg-press-machine

http://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2014/02/05/squats-presses-and-deadlifts-why-gyms-dont-teach-the-only-exercises-you-need/

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_interviews/the_mad_monk_of_power_lifting_an_interview_with_louie_simmons

When I said that freeweights were always superior to machines that wasn't an opinion; it was a fact that has been proven time and time again. You simply cannot duplicate a training method as effective as lifting an actual, heavy implement. These are the results from a simple google search. If you would like to read more about this subject I would recommend reading Starting Strength (Mark Rippetoe), The Westside Barbell Book of Methods (Louie Simmons), Science and Practice of Strength Training (Vladimir Zatsiorsky), Any of the books by Boris Sheiko, this list continues on and on.

_errata_

This article explains why EMG studies like his can be misleading:

http://markyoungtrainingsystems.com/2010/01/emg-for-exercise-recommendations/

Bret Contreras' obviously knows a lot about exercise physiology but I think he's lost touch with what strength training is really about. For example, this article could have been written as follows:

Repeatedly lift really heavy siht over your head. The end.

LOL, he does overthink things. But knowing the best exercises for activating certain muscles could come in handy for bodybuilders. Unfortunately he seems to ignore machines. Machines are excellent for hypertrophy, and in many cases, probably superior to freeweights.

There's no way to correct you without sounding like a **** so I'll just go ahead and do it.

Machines are under no circumstances superior to freeweights, period.

EMG studies are unreliable in a kinesiology/exercise physiology laboratory because they use surface recording electrodes. EMG's performed in a neurophysiology laboratory use concentric needle electrodes and are amazingly accurate; down to the exact number of motor units.

_errata_

This thread needs more of this:

http://tinyurl.com/

Seriously. The links are getting cut off. You can't have a proper flame war if you can't read the article....

or can you?

JMoore221979

Love T-nation. Great site. Tons and tons of great info!!!

vjohn04

Good information, but aren't many people asking for a shoulder / rotator cuff injury with a behind the neck press?

Maybe with a lighter load?

Perhaps, but I believe most injuries are the result of bad form and/or poor mobility.

But ultimately if you feel something is unsafe you can choose a safer, but less "optimal" exercise.

Well, I wasn't really asking for advice. My question was more rhetorical (I didn't mention that), because yes--- proper form is especially critical with a behind the neck press.

My point was illustrated by this comment where heavy loads have the propensity to be put in favor of form because we should lift as heavy ish as possible.

Bret Contreras' obviously knows a lot about exercise physiology but I think he's lost touch with what strength training is really about. For example, this article could have been written as follows:

Repeatedly lift really heavy siht over your head. The end.

Yes, injury risk due to poor form is true for pretty much any exercise. I personally (my opinion) believe that shoulders are extremely susceptible to severe injury with poor form. I try to take very, very good care of my delts and traps. =D

Cherimoose

Machines are under no circumstances superior to freeweights, period.

Exercises are like tools - there is no universally superior tool.. there is only the right tool for the job. For hypertrophy, hormonal increase is important, but muscle stimulation is more important, and machines can potentially do that better than freeweights, because:

1 - they don't waste as much energy on stabilizers and other non-target muscles - so more stimulation can go to the target muscles. That's especially true with isolation machines.

2 - they often have a smoother resistance curve, so there is less of a "sticking point" that ends sets prematurely. Compare a bicep curl to a bicep machine, for example.

3 - they can be more conducive to reaching muscle failure without a spotter. Compare benching without a spotter to the chest press machine.

By the way, acute hormone spikes minutes after a workout don't mean sustained raised levels, nor are acute spikes proof of hypertrophy. Hormones are always in flux, just like heart rate, blood pressure, etc. Lifting causes a momentary spike in blood pressure, but it doesn't cause chronically high blood pressure.

feralX

This article explains why EMG studies like his can be misleading:

http://markyoungtrainingsystems.com/2010/01/emg-for-exercise-recommendations/

Bret Contreras' obviously knows a lot about exercise physiology but I think he's lost touch with what strength training is really about. For example, this article could have been written as follows:

Repeatedly lift really heavy siht over your head. The end.

LOL, he does overthink things. But knowing the best exercises for activating certain muscles could come in handy for bodybuilders. Unfortunately he seems to ignore machines. Machines are excellent for hypertrophy, and in many cases, probably superior to freeweights.

There's no way to correct you without sounding like a **** so I'll just go ahead and do it.

Machines are under no circumstances superior to freeweights, period.

EMG studies are unreliable in a kinesiology/exercise physiology laboratory because they use surface recording electrodes. EMG's performed in a neurophysiology laboratory use concentric needle electrodes and are amazingly accurate; down to the exact number of motor units.

RE: "Machines are under no circumstances superior to freeweights, period."

Depends what your trying to accomplish, sometimes cables are superior to free weights. Gravity only pulls in one direction, cables you can manipulate the line of pull to target muscles differently. Plus there's the benefit of constant tension with cables that you can't always duplicate with free weights. A balanced mix of both is the best approach IMO.

Whoa....

Educate yourself brother.

http://breakingmuscle.com/strength-conditioning/new-study-pits-barbell-squats-against-leg-press-machine

http://pjmedia.com/lifestyle/2014/02/05/squats-presses-and-deadlifts-why-gyms-dont-teach-the-only-exercises-you-need/

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance_interviews/the_mad_monk_of_power_lifting_an_interview_with_louie_simmons

When I said that freeweights were always superior to machines that wasn't an opinion; it was a fact that has been proven time and time again. You simply cannot duplicate a training method as effective as lifting an actual, heavy implement. These are the results from a simple google search. If you would like to read more about this subject I would recommend reading Starting Strength (Mark Rippetoe), The Westside Barbell Book of Methods (Louie Simmons), Science and Practice of Strength Training (Vladimir Zatsiorsky), Any of the books by Boris Sheiko, this list continues on and on.

LOL Why are "strength" guys so defensive? Apparently you misread or misunderstood, I said "sometimes" cables are superior. Blanket statements like yours that use the term "always" are generally wrong, there are usually exceptions (notice I said usually, not "always"). Obviously the core of any training program should involve lifting heavy free weights, you can't duplicate the benefits of a deadlift with a cable for example. By your references your only interested in building strength, which is great, but not everyone's primary goal. If you're after hypertrophy and building a well balanced body hitting muscles from different angles is desirable. Like I said, gravity only pulls in one direction, with cables you can manipulate the angle of pull to target the muscles differently. Cables also have constant tension, something that free weights don't offer unless you're pushing or pulling in a straight line directly upwards. For example, if you take a preacher curl to full contraction, the biceps aren't under full tension at the top with a DB or barbell so the muscle gets a rest. With a properly aligned cable the tension remains right up to full contraction. Constant tension + no rest = good.

Really liked Cherimoose's post...ultimately free weights, cables, machines, or whatever are all just tools, use whatever moves you closer to your goals.