Eating way below BMR but losing weight and gaining muscle.

emmgray

Hello everyone,
For nearly three weeks now I've been on a diet where I don't go over 1200 calories a day and most of the time I'm under 1100. My BMR is supposed to be 1700. During weekdays I do 3 sets of 10 minute high intensity workouts. I also stand for about 10-11 hours a day (standing desk at work & at home) so I put lightly active (calculator.net) and it gives me a figure of 2300.

I've been reading a couple of posts here today about how you shouldn't eat less than BMR but for me the math has worked out and I've lost a little under 2kg and it also seems like I've gained muscle in my arms and abdominal area (they seem the most noticeable).

I've been eating 5 meals a day which have a lot of whole grains, fruits, vegetables, different sources of protein plus drinking a lot of water and during this period not once have I felt tired.

I'd like to get some advice because I'm not really sure about what's going on.
Thanks for reading

Aaron_K123

Your body will burn your TDEE in calories every day and there is no stopping it. If your TDEE is 2500 and you eat 1100 calories it will just make that difference up by burning your bodyfat to provide 2500 cal total.

The problem comes from the fact that your bodyfat does not provide any real nutrients, just caloric yield. Therefore you don't get any vitamins or amino acids or other things from your bodyfat that you do from good whole foods.

To support your muscle, especially growing muscle, is going to take a certain amount of protein and on top of that protein you of course also need all your micronutrients to maintain heatlh. That could be very difficult to do on 1100 calories a day. If you don't get the right nutrients or enough amino acids to support your body your body will resort to burning muscle in addition to fat.

That said if you can manage it you can manage it, but you would have to be brutally strict with your diet and make sure you are getting all the nutrients you need. Really it would probably be easier just to eat more and lose fat a little slower, easier to maintain that way and less chance of injury or health issues.

TeaBea

As you lose weight the layer of fat (that covers existing muscle) gets thinner. When you lose fat, existing muscle is "revealed."

Your BMR is the number of calories your body uses everyday......heart, lungs, kidneys, etc. Your vital organs are using 100% of what you are eating now. Gaining muscle would be impossible (for you) at 1200 calories. Just "keeping existing muscle" is still not a guarantee. Really high calorie deficits don't support existing muscle (protein or not).

Gaining muscle is really, really hard work. Even if you feel stronger, lift more weight.....that's not the same as "building muscle. Your sore muscles may be retaining water (to help heal small tears) ....this is normal.

mschicagocubs

Ugh .... just eat more. It's not that hard. Have a bowl of cereal to at least get to 1200 every day. You are going to make yourself very unhealthy by not getting the nutrients your body needs.

& no, sorry, you are not building muscle....you just can see them cuz you have lost weight.

SezxyStef

Sorry you are not gaining muscle you are probably losing it as such a big deficet.

Esp as a man...

You can workout all you want but if you are not in a surplus you are not gaining muscle...

For you tho I can say the weight you are losing is a combination of fat and muscle because with sub 1800 calories (and not that has nothing to do with your BMG) you are not getting enough protien to maintain muscle and aid in it's repair.

Your calorie goal should be to eat as much as possible and still lose weight..fat...not eat as little as possible and lose as fast as possible...

So what do you do now...well first start eating more than me...set a reasonable calorie deficet and eat at that...or you wont be feeling great soon..you will be tired, sick and lethargic and wont have any energy to workout..stop starving your body of what it needs...

*gosh I feel like I am chastizing my own son*...

Aaron_K123

Your vital organs are using 100% of what you are eating now.

[/quote]

True

Gaining muscle would be impossible (for you) at 1200 calories.

False. He is consuming 1200 calories but his body is utilizing much more than that via his fat stores to match his TDEE. As long as you are providing sufficient nutrition and protein to your body you can build muscle, your body will just utilize your fat to make up for the caloric deficit. It just happens to be very difficult to get sufficient protein and nutrition in just 1200 calories and is much more likely you won't start burning your own muscle if you eat more. General rule, safer to eat more and just lose fat slower. If you want to gain muscle you should probably be eating 1.5 times your bodyweight in grams of protein and if you weigh 200 pounds that would be 300 grams which would already be 1200 calories and you cannot be healthy eating 100% of your calories from pure protein.


It is of course possible that you actually are losing muscle now but your weightlifting is training the muscle you have to be more responsive giving you strength gains. Really better to just eat more and make this a longer term goal.

TL:DR although technically possible to eat below your BMR and still gain muscle the gain will be much more difficult and make your nutrition insanely strict to attain that. Much much easier and better to just eat more if your intent is to lose fat AND gain muscle.

Greenrun99

Someone thinks they are a special snowflake... oh poor muscles of a snowflake..

RGv2

Gaining muscle would be impossible (for you) at 1200 calories.

False. He is consuming 1200 calories but his body is utilizing much more than that via his fat stores to match his TDEE. As long as you are providing sufficient nutrition and protein to your body you can build muscle, your body will just utilize your fat to make up for the caloric deficit. It just happens to be very difficult to get sufficient protein and nutrition in just 1200 calories and is much more likely you won't start burning your own muscle if you eat more. General rule, safer to eat more and just lose fat slower. If you want to gain muscle you should probably be eating 1.5 times your bodyweight in grams of protein and if you weigh 200 pounds that would be 300 grams which would already be 1200 calories and you cannot be healthy eating 100% of your calories from pure protein.


It is of course possible that you actually are losing muscle now but your weightlifting is training the muscle you have to be more responsive giving you strength gains. Really better to just eat more and make this a longer term goal.

TL:DR although technically possible to eat below your BMR and still gain muscle the gain will be much more difficult and make your nutrition insanely strict to attain that. Much much easier and better to just eat more if your intent is to lose fat AND gain muscle.

:huh:

OP isn't gaining muscle on a VLCD.

Mr_Knight

You haven't gained any muscle.

Take that as gospel, take another look at what you're doing, and draw the next most obvious conclusion.

Mr_Knight

Your body will burn your TDEE in calories every day and there is no stopping it. If your TDEE is 2500 and you eat 1100 calories it will just make that difference up by burning your bodyfat to provide 2500 cal total.

No, that's not correct.

The body can only get so much fuel from fat stores, because it is a rate-limited process. If the caloric deficit is too large, once fat store metabolization has been tapped out, BMR and ability to maintain TDEE will start dropping.

tomcornhole

Doesn't take long for a 1 post wonder to get everyone stirred up on a full diet of troll soup.

neandermagnon

Your vital organs are using 100% of what you are eating now.

True

Gaining muscle would be impossible (for you) at 1200 calories.

False. He is consuming 1200 calories but his body is utilizing much more than that via his fat stores to match his TDEE. As long as you are providing sufficient nutrition and protein to your body you can build muscle, your body will just utilize your fat to make up for the caloric deficit.

[/quote]

not true. After a few days of burning fat, if the deficit is big the body will switch to burning skeletal muscle in preference to fat, because in order to survive a food shortage, it wants your fat stores to last as long as possible. Muscle is a liability, because it costs a lot of calories to maintain so it's jettisoned. Even when you do everything exactly right, you can still expect a little muscle loss on a cut. the idea of doing everything right is to keep it to an absolute bare minimum. But if you're deliberately eating at a really big deficit then you may as well just kiss your muscle tissue goodbye. Your body did not evolve to just keep on burning fat until the fat stores run out, it evolved to make the fat stores last as long as possible by burning skeletal muscle. That's why famine victims look like skin and bones, not like ripped bodybuilders.

why? because Homo erectus quite often didn't get enough to eat, and we're descended from the ones that didn't die in the food shortages. The human body is designed to survive food shortages.... yep 1200 cals/day won't kill you, but it's going to make you look like the Homo erectus that didn't get enough to eat for a very long time (aka skin and bones), not like the Homo erectus that was badass and caught loads of animals and got loads to eat and grew big muscles to be able to keep on catching animals (i.e. like a strength athlete).

Also 1200 cals/day is too little for the vast majority of women (older, petite, sedentary women are an exception) - there is no way the same number of calories that's right for a little old lady who gets no exercise is an adequate amount for a young man.

emmgray

Wow, I didn't expect to get this many replies.

Ok, so eat more, but how much more? Should I eat a little under BMR (i.e. 1600 if BMR is 1700) or should I eat a minimum of 1700. I only ask because neandermagnon mentions that if the deficit is big I will start burn muscle so it would be ok with a smaller deficit? Also I'm a little confused about if I should calculate deficit using my BMR or TDEE.

With me doing 10 minute HIIT 3 times a day and all the standing I do what sort of activity level should I be selecting in calculators?

I apologise that I'm being noobish, I'm very new to all this.

__freckles__

Wow, I didn't expect to get this many replies.

Ok, so eat more, but how much more? Should I eat a little under BMR (i.e. 1600 if BMR is 1700) or should I eat a minimum of 1700. I only ask because neandermagnon mentions that if the deficit is big I will start burn muscle so it would be ok with a smaller deficit? Also I'm a little confused about if I should calculate deficit using my BMR or TDEE.

With me doing 10 minute HIIT 3 times a day and all the standing I do what sort of activity level should I be selecting in calculators?

I apologise that I'm being noobish, I'm very new to all this.

Here you go OP:

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1080242-a-guide-to-get-you-started-on-your-path-to-sexypants

Good luck.

RGv2

Wow, I didn't expect to get this many replies.

Ok, so eat more, but how much more? Should I eat a little under BMR (i.e. 1600 if BMR is 1700) or should I eat a minimum of 1700. I only ask because neandermagnon mentions that if the deficit is big I will start burn muscle so it would be ok with a smaller deficit? Also I'm a little confused about if I should calculate deficit using my BMR or TDEE.

With me doing 10 minute HIIT 3 times a day and all the standing I do what sort of activity level should I be selecting in calculators?

I apologise that I'm being noobish, I'm very new to all this.

Here you go OP:

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1080242-a-guide-to-get-you-started-on-your-path-to-sexypants

Good luck.

This...

Your deficit needs to be from your TDEE, not your BMR. Your BMR is the caloric value that would sustain you in a coma. You're looking to aim somewhere in between TDEE and BMR.

Iknowsaur

I was going to say mean things until the OP seemed to respond to reason
Darn it.
*Storms out*

zoeysasha37

Someone thinks they are a special snowflake... oh poor muscles of a snowflake..

This!

vjohn04

no.


and eat more.

Aaron_K123

Your body will burn your TDEE in calories every day and there is no stopping it. If your TDEE is 2500 and you eat 1100 calories it will just make that difference up by burning your bodyfat to provide 2500 cal total.

No, that's not correct.

The body can only get so much fuel from fat stores, because it is a rate-limited process. If the caloric deficit is too large, once fat store metabolization has been tapped out, BMR and ability to maintain TDEE will start dropping.

Alright that does make sense, I guess I shouldn't be so extreme in saying that your body can make up ANY caloric deficit from just burning fat. Also after doing the math it is pretty much impossible to eat only 1100 calories AND get sufficient protein to really maintain let alone build muscle while still getting all the nutrients you need. Eat more dude.

Aaron_K123

Wow, I didn't expect to get this many replies.

Ok, so eat more, but how much more? Should I eat a little under BMR (i.e. 1600 if BMR is 1700) or should I eat a minimum of 1700. I only ask because neandermagnon mentions that if the deficit is big I will start burn muscle so it would be ok with a smaller deficit? Also I'm a little confused about if I should calculate deficit using my BMR or TDEE.

With me doing 10 minute HIIT 3 times a day and all the standing I do what sort of activity level should I be selecting in calculators?

I apologise that I'm being noobish, I'm very new to all this.

You would calculate your deficit based on your TDEE (Total Daily Energy Expenditure) NOT on your BMR. Your BMR is just how much calories your body needs to sustain basic bodily function, your TDEE is that plus your activity be it just standing up or doing HIIT.

I think the general agreed rule is to eat not much less than 20% of your TDEE for sustained fat loss without muscle loss. So if your TDEE was 2500 calories that would mean consuming 2000 calories a day. If you want to maintain or even grow muscle eating 1-1.5 times your bodyweight in grams of protein per day is good to do as well (that ends up being a lot of protein).

If your muscles feel "bigger" after doing what you say you have been doing most likely its just because they are retaining water after a workout which is pretty common for weightlifting routines.

Basically in general if you eat way way below your TDEE you may lose weight faster but that weight will include your muscle which means that your weight loss will plateau faster. As you lose muscle your metabolism slows down and your BMR drops and then it takes more and more calorie deficit to maintain the fat loss. Better to burn it slow and keep that metabolism pumping.

Hopefully I have redeemed myself from my earlier post. I do think it is possible to maintain muscle and be under your BMR but its special circumstances and very strict nutrition. Much better to just go with the established rule of 20% under your TDEE.

mcdona84

Wow, I didn't expect to get this many replies.

Ok, so eat more, but how much more? Should I eat a little under BMR (i.e. 1600 if BMR is 1700) or should I eat a minimum of 1700. I only ask because neandermagnon mentions that if the deficit is big I will start burn muscle so it would be ok with a smaller deficit? Also I'm a little confused about if I should calculate deficit using my BMR or TDEE.

With me doing 10 minute HIIT 3 times a day and all the standing I do what sort of activity level should I be selecting in calculators?

I apologise that I'm being noobish, I'm very new to all this.

The best thing you can do for muscle is to make sure you are consuming enough protein, if you are active then you should be consuming between 1.2-1.5 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight. So if you are 200 lbs that is roughly 90.9 kg (200/2.2), so your protein intake might between 109.08 - 136.35 grams. BMR is the energy needed to maintain all physiological processes in the body. So it would be best to maintain AT LEAST that amount. I would start between 2000-2500 calories and test it out. You will know if you are losing muscle as it will be reflected in your muscular strength and endurance. As a result, your performance will decline. There is no exact *magic* number you should be consuming. Do some trial and error.

Ang108

Hello everyone,
For nearly three weeks now I've been on a diet where I don't go over 1200 calories a day and most of the time I'm under 1100. My BMR is supposed to be 1700. During weekdays I do 3 sets of 10 minute high intensity workouts. I also stand for about 10-11 hours a day (standing desk at work & at home) so I put lightly active (calculator.net) and it gives me a figure of 2300.

I've been reading a couple of posts here today about how you shouldn't eat less than BMR but for me the math has worked out and I've lost a little under 2kg and it also seems like I've gained muscle in my arms and abdominal area (they seem the most noticeable).

I've been eating 5 meals a day which have a lot of whole grains, fruits, vegetables, different sources of protein plus drinking a lot of water and during this period not once have I felt tired.



I'd like to get some advice because I'm not really sure about what's going on.
Thanks for reading

You have not gained muscle, especially not eating at such a deficit. However it is very possible that after losing 2 kilos/4.4 pounds that existing muscles are getting more defined, because the layer of fat on top of them is getting less. Many people confuse this with muscle gain. It takes more time and eating at a surplus to gain muscle mass, even for a young man like you.
I would suggest that you ingest more calories, especially protein, because otherwise even the minimal visual gain you have had will disappear, because at such an extreme deficit you will lose a lot of muscle mass.
Good Luck !

Aaron_K123

Water retention in muscles from weight lifting can also make your muscles appear to increase in size and become harder.

emmgray

At the moment I'm trying to work out a diet which has 120g protein (480 calories), 120g carbohydrates (480 calories) and 80g fat (720 calories) which would give me a total of 1680 calories.

I was also looking at the calculation about how you can estimate the amount of fat you can lose in a day, which is:

((mass (lbs) x body fat %) x 31) so 154 x 0.15= 23.1 then x31 = 716.1

Putting my numbers in (with an approximate BF%) give me a value a little over 700 calories.

One thing I'm not sure about to work out my deficit is which activity level I should choose on the level of activity section in these calculators (between light and moderate activity there is a 300 calorie difference for me).


Not sure if my personal stats change anything but I'm a guy, 24, 5 foot 9 inches, weigh 70kg (154lbs) with a 31 inch waist. I also don't want to bulk up or anything; my aim is to look lean.

emmgray

So after looking into it more I was thinking along the lines of a more balanced 40/30/30 macronutrient plan.

The issue I'm having is finding a way to get the 125g of protein (25g per meal and ~350 calories) without taking a big hit on weekly spending on food. The way I see it, everyday I would need to eat about 80g of chicken / turkey, 100g tuna / salmon cod, 70g lean meat, 80g low fat cheese, and maybe get some egg white powder & de-fatted peanut flour to cover the remaining 25g.

The amount of carbohydrates (whole wheat, low GI) and unsaturated fat amounts are so much easier.

Aaron_K123

For the protein you could look into a whey powder protein supplement if purchasing fresh lean meats to that amount is pushing your budget. You'll find with higher protein in the diet you will be much more satiated with fewer calories as well but it is important to still eat all of that and not just eat even less as a result.

Gaining muscle while you lose fat IS possible but it is a bit of a nutritional tight-rope walk and you can't just starve yourself and get that result.

"Not sure if my personal stats change anything but I'm a guy, 24, 5 foot 9 inches, weigh 70kg (154lbs) with a 31 inch waist"

Honestly you already sound like you are pretty lean or at least not very overweight.

emmgray

I still have some noticeable fat on my belly a little bit on my thighs and pecs which I really would like to lose.

One thing I've noticed is that my eating times are very similar to intermittent fasting (breakfast at 9am, dinner at 7pm) which is 10:14 so I was wondering if there would be a problem if I had breakfast at 10am and brought it to a closer 9:15?

There is one thing that I would like to ask:
Would it be possible for me to keep losing weight even if I stop HIIT? Even with a 'sedentary' lifestyle I still need 2000 calories so with a 400 calorie deficit I can still keep losing fat if I eat right can't I?

WBB55

In terms of cheapest in cost per gram of protein, my charts and graphs show that protein powder, frozen ground turkey, tuna in a can, frozen chicken breasts, dry lentils, and dry beans are the cheapest. Cottage cheese, greek yogurt, and eggs also are affordable, but not quite as cheap per gram of protein.