TDEE Doubts

Aaron_K123

Lots of calculators lots of different numbers for TDEE. Goal is 1.5 pound fat loss per week while maintaining muscle over a 6 month period to attain bodyfat % goal.

My general stats are 6' tall 35 y/o male, 25% bodyfat 186 pounds. Estimated lean mass at 135 pounds.

Lifestyle is deskjob and no activity other than 45 min workout 6 days per week alternating aerobuc cardio with weight training (P90 program).

I have BMR and TDEE I am using and MFPs suggested net calories. I eat back what I exercise off based on average burn if 350 cal for workouts.

Over the last 6 weeks have lost no scale weight but have dropped an estimated 3% bodyfat by tape measure and caliper.

Want to hear what people think my BMR and TDEE is to poll the community.

SugaryLynx

No one will know. If you're not losing weight and logging 100% or close to accurate, then drop by 100 calories, wait a week or two. Go from there. An online calculator based on my activity says I maintain around 1700 calories. I maintain around 2150. What worked for me was adjusting according to data I collected over the weeks and either going up or down by about 100 calories depending on goals.

Aaron_K123

No one will know. If you're not losing weight and logging 100% or close to accurate, then drop by 100 calories, wait a week or two. Go from there. An online calculator based on my activity says I maintain around 1700 calories. I maintain around 2150. What worked for me was adjusting according to data I collected over the weeks and either going up or down by about 100 calories depending on goals.

That makes sense but ive been told the exact opposite as well, that im not eating enough and need to increase my calories to attain my goal. Rather than bias people with the numbers im using just trying to poll to see where most would assume my targets would be.

LTKeegan

Wait, you do TDEE and you eat back exercise calories? That means you're double counting...

Unknown

This content has been removed.

editorgrrl

You only have 31 lb. to go. Your goal should be .5 lb. per week. Maybe 1 lb., but 1.5 lb. is way too aggressive.

All the calculations are only estimates, so it will take a whole lot of trial & error to find what works for you.

Read this: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1080242-a-guide-to-get-you-started-on-your-path-to-sexypants

Aaron_K123

Wait, you do TDEE and you eat back exercise calories? That means you're double counting...

I eat back based on my TDEE which is based on the exercise for the day to hit a constant net. No I am not double counting.

Aaron_K123

no way in hell you're 25% bf judging by your picture. I'm not even 25% body fat and I am fatter

My main profile pic is me 3 years ago at my goal %BF of 14%. If you want to see what I look like now check my profile I have an additional picture. That picture is for motivation. I have put on 30 pounds of fat since then due to focusing on career and neglecting health. I know exactly how much I want to lose to get back to sub 15% BF I just could use some advice on my TDEE which is why I asked.

Aaron_K123

You only have 31 lb. to go. Your goal should be .5 lb. per week. Maybe 1 lb., but 1.5 lb. is way too aggressive.

All the calculations are only estimates, so it will take a whole lot of trial & error to find what works for you.

Read this: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1080242-a-guide-to-get-you-started-on-your-path-to-sexypants

It is my understanding that 1.5 pounds a week is an aggressive but sustainable weight loss rate that is not unhealthy if done right. Without going into specifics I have a bit of a 5 month deadline now.

My desire is to do it right and I was hoping to get peoples input on my TDEE please.

LTKeegan

Wait, you do TDEE and you eat back exercise calories? That means you're double counting...

I eat back based on my TDEE which is based on the exercise for the day to hit a constant net. No I am not double counting.

I'm confused. Do you just mean you eat your TDEE?

LTKeegan

Aside from being fully confused about what you're doing with exercise calories, if you are eating 1500/day as your diary says, you are not eating enough to not eat up your muscle stores. Your BMR is probably more like 1700-1800 and you really shouldn't eat less than that if you want to not lose muscle.

Aaron_K123

Aside from being fully confused about what you're doing with exercise calories, if you are eating 1500/day as your diary says, you are not eating enough to not eat up your muscle stores. Your BMR is probably more like 1700-1800 and you really shouldn't eat less than that if you want to not lose muscle.

Do you mean I shouldn't net less than 1800? because most days I do eat above 1800. Yesterday I ate 2100 and most days I eat around or over 200g of protein which is well above the recommendation for muscle retentiob of 1 gram per lean mass pound (135 for me)

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Aaron_K123

Aside from being fully confused about what you're doing with exercise calories, if you are eating 1500/day as your diary says, you are not eating enough to not eat up your muscle stores. Your BMR is probably more like 1700-1800 and you really shouldn't eat less than that if you want to not lose muscle.

You mean I should net less than that right because most days I do eat above 1800. Yesterday I ate 2100

Basically: if you are following what MFP gave you for calories, eat exercise back. If you are following TDEE calories, don't eat exercise back

In those terms im following MFP. As I said I try to net the same caloric intake daily taking into account my exercise. I have my doubts about MFPs suggestion oof 1500 net which is why I am trying to get people's opinion on my likely TDEE

Aaron_K123

I was being intentionally vague because I wanted an unbiased opinion not people just commenting on whatever numbers I put out there. Seems like specifics are required though so let me try that.

I am aiming for 1.5 pound loss per week which is around a 750 cal daily deficit. MFP suggests I net 1500 cal to achieve this which strikes me as being low. My TDEE is calcilated anywhere between 2400 and 3000. If 2400 then id want to hit 1650 which is close to MFP but if 3000 im undereating.

What I was hoping for is to get TDEE estimates from people with similar builds or experience so I can calibrate accordingly.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

SKME2013

I would not eat all of my exercise calories back as myfitnesspal over estimates your calories burned through exercise. Are you using a heart rate monitor when exercising?

If you eat under your TDEE and above your BMR you should lose weight. If you do not lose weight or not enough than you are eating to much. To lose 1,5 pounds each week you need to eat at a deficit of 5250 (3500 for each pound).

There are numerous calculators for TDEE out there, I would try a few and go with the lowest number. As said, I would NOT trust MFP's exercise calorie number and I would eat max 40% of those calories back.

Just my two pennies...
Stef.

Aaron_K123

ok well I'm 5'9.5 175ish and I maintain with 2500 calories, so I'm assuming your maintenance is higher

Thanks that is helpful and supports suspicion that MFP might be misleading me a bit with 1500 net goal.

Aaron_K123

I would not eat all of my exercise calories back as myfitnesspal over estimates your calories burned through exercise. Are you using a heart rate monitor when exercising?

If you eat under your TDEE and above your BMR you should lose weight. If you do not lose weight or not enough than you are eating to much. To lose 1,5 pounds each week you need to eat at a deficit of 5250 (3500 for each pound).

There are numerous calculators for TDEE out there, I would try a few and go with the lowest number. As said, I would NOT trust MFP's exercise calorie number and I would eat max 40% of those calories back.

Just my two pennies...
Stef.

Yes ive used an heartrate monitor to calc calorie usage both exercising and not excercising and took the difference between the two to estimate calorie burn by excercise. I got 400 cal burned for a 55 min cardio routine where I was in aerobic range for 40 min. I do not use MFP for that as I agree it is inaccurate. For example MFP claims if I walk 4mph for 1 hour I burn 900 calories which is pretty silly.

SKME2013

400 cal for 55 min of cardio sounds about right. Nevertheless, if you set your MFP to anything but "sedentary" it will have included your calories burned by exercise already. As said, I would not eat all of those exercise calories back. MFP is very generous.

At the end of the day, a lot of calorie burn boils down to experimenting. Eat at a certain level for a couple of weeks and see what happens. If you don't lose you are eating too much, if you do, than you are on the right path.

Best of luck
Stef.

heybales

I was being intentionally vague because I wanted an unbiased opinion not people just commenting on whatever numbers I put out there. Seems like specifics are required though so let me try that.

I am aiming for 1.5 pound loss per week which is around a 750 cal daily deficit. MFP suggests I net 1500 cal to achieve this which strikes me as being low. My TDEE is calcilated anywhere between 2400 and 3000. If 2400 then id want to hit 1650 which is close to MFP but if 3000 im undereating.

What I was hoping for is to get TDEE estimates from people with similar builds or experience so I can calibrate accordingly.

So 1500 eating goal, 750 cal deficit, non-exercise maintenance of 2250.

You are estimating exercise at 350 per session.

If that was correct, you'd have a TDEE on workout days of 2600.
2250 on non-exercise days.

This is all bearing on MFP estimating your non-exercise maintenance correctly from your selection of activity level, and BMR.

If your BF% is decent estimate, than MFP is inflated on it's BMR, and therefore maintenance is too.

So if you are losing inches still, your body is making improvements that cause weight gain - water being the biggest.

You are doing a very strong carb burning workout with P90X - bodies first response is to store more for next time, easy improvement. Carbs store with water.

Increased blood volume too.

And water retained in muscles as part of healing process.

But if losing inches and weight staying the same, and body making improvements, it's usually an indicator that the body feels like it's getting enough calories to do so.
But a stressed body usually doesn't make improvements that require more energy if it thinks it's not getting enough already, and fat would not be lost.

So you appear to be eating at maintenance right now if good 3-4 weeks of no loss, and using valid weigh-in days.
Morning after rest day eating normal sodium levels, not sore from last workout.

But here's a super easy test to confirm, and you'll enjoy the improvement in the workouts for the time too. Usually, because then it sucks to lose that ease.

Eat 250 calories extra daily for 2 weeks.
If that is truly above your TDEE on average, you would only gain 1 lb, and not even all fat with those workouts.
That's it.

If you gain 2 lbs in first week, you were not at TDEE previously, or you would not have had extra glycogen stores to top off in the first place.
So now go even 250 more for 2 more weeks.

Why test where your true TDEE is for this workout?

Because your best improvement from the exercise will occur near potential TDEE, not estimated or suppressed TDEE.

And if you can eat more and still lose the same amount, and make better improvements - why not? That's likely why you are doing the workout.

Have you seen P90X's website and calorie recommendations?

If you do use the spreadsheet I mentioned in prior post, P90X rates as high cardio level for calorie burn.

LTKeegan

Aside from being fully confused about what you're doing with exercise calories, if you are eating 1500/day as your diary says, you are not eating enough to not eat up your muscle stores. Your BMR is probably more like 1700-1800 and you really shouldn't eat less than that if you want to not lose muscle.

Do you mean I shouldn't net less than 1800? because most days I do eat above 1800. Yesterday I ate 2100 and most days I eat around or over 200g of protein which is well above the recommendation for muscle retentiob of 1 gram per lean mass pound (135 for me)

Yes, I mean net

heybales

The HRM's formula for calorie burn related to HR is totally based on aerobic exercise, and steady-state at that, same HR for 2-4 min.

P90X is dipping in to the anaerobic zone all the time, and is opposite of steady state.

While it is a big burner, the HRM will be inflated with it's values. Not as bad as true lifting, but some.

And for use below exercise level just sitting around - inflated too.

So your difference in calories was actually too small - but the HRM for exercise is still inflated. But at least can tell you what it's below.

Aaron_K123

Thanks although this does underline my frustration with the forums. Seems like when this sort of question is asked you get half the room saying you need to eat more and the other half saying you need to eat less.

I have to say I am very skeptical at the idea that as a 6' tall man doing 50 min workouts 6 days a week I need to eat less than I already am. My decision right now is whether to stay the course or eat more.

heybales

Thanks although this does underline my frustration with the forums. Seems like when this sort of question is asked you get half the room saying you need to eat more and the other half saying you need to eat less.

I have to say I am very skeptical at the idea that as a 6' tall man doing 50 min workouts 6 days a week I need to eat less than I already am. My decision right now is whether to stay the course or eat more.

I should clarify, if you do that 250 cal extra for 2 weeks test, you will make improvements in the exercise, and even after you take a deficit from tested TDEE, you usually keep those improvements.
The speed of further improvements is not nearly as fast though when in a diet, and recovery becomes more important to sustain a good strong workout.

Aaron_K123

Thanks heybales I like your suggestion about 250 cal plus experiment and I suspect my lack of weightloss 8s tied to muscle based water retention. Just a quick correction im doing P90 not P90X. P90X comes later once I get in better shape and can actually do pullups again. P90 is basically alternating fullbody lifting with cardio every other day staggered.

Aaron_K123

I realize that experience and experimentation is key here but I am admittedly a bit nervous about eating more if it's uneccesary to do so given my goal has a 5 month deadline. I plan to continue after that 5 months but the closer I can get to 14% bf in 5 months the better.

AsaThorsWoman

Bumping to read about TDEE.

LTKeegan

I realize that experience and experimentation is key here but I am admittedly a bit nervous about eating more if it's uneccesary to do so given my goal has a 5 month deadline. I plan to continue after that 5 months but the closer I can get to 14% bf in 5 months the better.

I don't think netting above your BMR is unnecessary....

heybales

I realize that experience and experimentation is key here but I am admittedly a bit nervous about eating more if it's uneccesary to do so given my goal has a 5 month deadline. I plan to continue after that 5 months but the closer I can get to 14% bf in 5 months the better.

For faster recomp changes, you want the least deficit needed then.

You want your body fulling willing to burn fat while it's adding improvements, and here at the start with fat to lose, that includes gaining some muscle mass, very little mind you, maybe a pound in 6 weeks, but that ability won't happen later.

Because if you are eating too little for level of work, your body will start getting more metabolically efficient, meaning you'll have more weeks of no loss or less loss because your deficit is no longer as great. Then you'll eat less calories, and it adjusts more, another wasted week.

But you spend 2 weeks now allowing max improvement to your body - that increased LBM, even if no muscle mass, will aid in faster loss later, and continuing for longer.

Because it'll become a fight later with less BF and less weight, you won't keep up the 750 cal deficit the entire time, your body will wipe that out if you attempt to. Throw several multi-week stalls in there, and 2 weeks will seem like chump change at that point.
And recovery at that point will take longer too. Read around the forums. Some people luck out eating 200 more and loss continues, many don't until they eat there for weeks on end, then take another deficit.

Just warning ya for what's been seen and what the body will do.

Here's what you don't want happening if you really do it wrong.
http://www.t-nation.com/diet-fat-loss/truth-about-metabolic-damage

Aaron_K123

I realize that experience and experimentation is key here but I am admittedly a bit nervous about eating more if it's uneccesary to do so given my goal has a 5 month deadline. I plan to continue after that 5 months but the closer I can get to 14% bf in 5 months the better.

For faster recomp changes, you want the least deficit needed then.

You want your body fulling willing to burn fat while it's adding improvements, and here at the start with fat to lose, that includes gaining some muscle mass, very little mind you, maybe a pound in 6 weeks, but that ability won't happen later.

Because if you are eating too little for level of work, your body will start getting more metabolically efficient, meaning you'll have more weeks of no loss or less loss because your deficit is no longer as great. Then you'll eat less calories, and it adjusts more, another wasted week.

But you spend 2 weeks now allowing max improvement to your body - that increased LBM, even if no muscle mass, will aid in faster loss later, and continuing for longer.

Because it'll become a fight later with less BF and less weight, you won't keep up the 750 cal deficit the entire time, your body will wipe that out if you attempt to. Throw several multi-week stalls in there, and 2 weeks will seem like chump change at that point.
And recovery at that point will take longer too. Read around the forums. Some people luck out eating 200 more and loss continues, many don't until they eat there for weeks on end, then take another deficit.

Just warning ya for what's been seen and what the body will do.

Here's what you don't want happening if you really do it wrong.
http://www.t-nation.com/diet-fat-loss/truth-about-metabolic-damage

Thanks again heybales, I really appreciate you taking the time. Yes I do want to avoid metabolic damage. I took a look at that article and I'm not suffering from any of those early warning signs. I'm not at all hungry during the day but even if I'm not I still eat to up my calories to my goal, I never undereat just because I'm not hungry. It has been 6 weeks and I am not craving, I am not hungry during my days and my workouts I still bring intensity and have seen gains in terms of cardiovascular endurance and strength. There is always that possibility I am fooling myself but I think I'm about where I want to be it just seems that my intake is low for someone my age and size so I was questioning it.

I was wondering what you meant by "stall weeks", does that mean a week where you intentionally eat more to aid with recovery and take a break from dieting?

Also not sure if you would be willing to sneak a peak at my diary and evaluate. I've only been logging in MFP for a week, prior to that I was using my own excel sheets.