Need your opinion on diet/exercise please...

End6ame

http://my.clevelandclinic.org/sports_health/nutrition/protein.aspx

Only if you have a calorie surplus. Anything can be stored as fat if you have a calorie surplus. If you have a calorie deficit your body will not store fat.

Calories in > Calories out = Gain weight
Calories in < Calories out = Lose fat

sorry, but this is incorrect.

Care to elaborate?

SHBoss1673

http://my.clevelandclinic.org/sports_health/nutrition/protein.aspx

Only if you have a calorie surplus. Anything can be stored as fat if you have a calorie surplus. If you have a calorie deficit your body will not store fat.

Calories in > Calories out = Gain weight
Calories in < Calories out = Lose fat

sorry, but this is incorrect.

Care to elaborate?

sure. The following statement is extremely ambiguous, and CAN be true, but is not always true and is incorrect in it's vague description.
Calories in < Calories out = Lose fat

more specifically you said: If you have a calorie deficit your body will not store fat.
This is untrue, it is quite possible and in fact, quite common for someone in a calorie deficit to store fat. In fact, for someone with a calorie deficit to large, their BMR will slow down, and body fat storage rates will increase after a short period of glucose depletion (usually between 2 and 10 days).

See: Proceedings of the Nutrition Society (1995), 54: 267-274 Cambridge University
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayFulltext?type=1&fid=789564&jid=PNS&volumeId=54&issueId=01&aid=789556#

End6ame

http://my.clevelandclinic.org/sports_health/nutrition/protein.aspx

Only if you have a calorie surplus. Anything can be stored as fat if you have a calorie surplus. If you have a calorie deficit your body will not store fat.

Calories in > Calories out = Gain weight
Calories in < Calories out = Lose fat

sorry, but this is incorrect.

Care to elaborate?

sure. The following statement is extremely ambiguous, and CAN be true, but is not always true and is incorrect in it's vague description.
Calories in < Calories out = Lose fat

more specifically you said: If you have a calorie deficit your body will not store fat.
This is untrue, it is quite possible and in fact, quite common for someone in a calorie deficit to store fat. In fact, for someone with a calorie deficit to large, their BMR will slow down, and body fat storage rates will increase after a short period of glucose depletion (usually between 2 and 10 days).

See: Proceedings of the Nutrition Society (1995), 54: 267-274 Cambridge University
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayFulltext?type=1&fid=789564&jid=PNS&volumeId=54&issueId=01&aid=789556#

Sorry your are correct. I was speaking generally and didn't think about the ultra low end of the spectrum.

FemininGuns

I don't know too much about regulating carbs, but one thing that I have found is that it is possible to get sluggish in the fall because of the dwindling daylight. How much time do you spend outside?

I've been getting not too much light... I work from 8-4, gym it in the AM, then run in the evening around supper time so I get light there. Probably about 3 times a week. Thanks for the reply!

FemininGuns

Great job on your success thus far! You look phenomenal!

And regarding carbs - I am the first person to try to get rid of them. I lose better without them and I FEEL better without them. But the fact is, when you're doing a lot of cardio, you really need to balance your macro-nutrients. I did not believe that increasing my carb intake would increase my fat loss until I read Tom Venuto's Burn the Fat - Feed the Muscle (which I highly recommend).

Thank you for the book recommendation. I've been looking for one and this seems to be very informative for my purpose. Thanks! Will be getting it tonight.

FemininGuns

Are you getting enough iron? I haven't looked at your food yet, but feeling sluggish is a sign of anemia (and also hypothyroid).

It could just be a hormonal change, too.

Iron levels are good as I just got tested recently

FemininGuns

You should go into your Food Diary settings (on the Home Page, click on Goals, then Change Goals, then Custom) and reset your ratios. You're getting a lot more protein and less carbs than MFP recommends as a default and I think it would benefit to change them so you can adjust your eating accordingly. I'm at 50% carbs, 25% fat and 25% protein right now and I feel good. A higher protein diet would be 40% carbs, 30% fat and 30% protein. It's worth changing so you can see how you're doing against the ratios.

Thanks for your tip, I will definitely change my settings!!!

FemininGuns

Normally I'm quite happy to critique Diet but frankly, I think I eat clean and I think you're eating better than me. On top of that you look fantastic. Dare I say... "hot"

You might balance a little more carbs and a little less protein but to be blunt, I haven't seen logs of anyone on here who I thought were as good as yours

I do wonder if your sluggishness feel is caused by performing two types of exercise regularly whose effects counter each other. A number of years ago I ran the marathon, but I was also lifting substantial amounts of weight. It was really tough looking for a balance because it takes time for muscles to recover from lifting, and long runs tend to each muscle. What sort of workout do you perform ? Do you work all of your muscles all of the time or do you work on a split ? How long are your runs ?

I run 2 evenings for about 30 minutes and do a long run of about an hour... And totally agree with the balance thing for both sports!! When I lift, I do 1 to 2 body parts a day. I do legs 2 days prior to long runs so I can recover...

musclebuilder

So, you're disputing the Cleveland Clinic?

OK then.

Yes I am. Dispute non credible info like you posted is what I do. Why, is the CC above being questioned?

THE CLEVELAND CLINIC is not credible? Are you serious? Now I'm laughing.

And it's not 1g/POUND of body weight. It's per kilogram. Totally different unit of measurement. Please show me a single source that states 1g/pound for ANYONE. I've never seen that. Not even on bodybuilding websites.

in regards to this specific topic they/you are not..

musclebuilder

Hi, I've been here since July, lost 14lbs so far.

I noticed the past couple of weeks that I've been feeling sluggish. 3 weeks ago, I changed my diet (please view diary to assess), started going to bed earlier as I go to the gym at 5am. Cut out wine/beer or any alcoholic beverage...

I feel that I am eating pretty clean... However, I am wondering if my sluggishness is due to not enough carbs in my diet. I do a lot of cardio (4 times per week in the AM at the gym at 40 min. each, twice a week in the evening go running for aroun 30 minutes and I do a long run on the weekend that's about 1hr long) and lift weights 5 times a week. Anyway, if anyone has input on if I should increase carb intake (good ones) or if I should be ok in what I'm eating please let me know.

I want to continue losing at a slow pace, but I want to be full of energy the majority of the time instead of possibly 2 days out of 7...

Thanks!

When is the last time you had a break from training?

FemininGuns

...I think you are from Canada (similar foods to what I have in my pantry) - what supplements are you taking? I've noticed too that I'm getting sluggish, my diet is nowhere as clean as yours, but increasing my Vitamin D intake has helped tremendously. Your B-complex will also help boost your energy - in fact, I would check your B12 levels.

Yup, from Canada. I am taking the following supplements: Brad King Mutli V, Brad King Maca Energy, Brad Kiing Fat Burner, Vitamin C (2000), Vitamin E (400), Vitamin D (2000), Primrose Oil, Vitamin B Complexe 100. I take Flax Seed oils as well as Calcium supplements... B12 are great, just got blood work done.

SHBoss1673

Sorry your are correct. I was speaking generally and didn't think about the ultra low end of the spectrum.

Quite alright. The reason why I mention it at all is, if you look at FemininGuns diet, you'll see that she's somewhere around a 1200 calorie goal right now, which (unless she's 4'7" tall) mean's she IS at the ultra low end of the spectrum (I.E. a deficit probably somewhere north of 700 calories, even if she's only lightly active which, seeing her workout routine, she most likely isn't).

which is why I mention it at all. See in general terms for someone looking to reasonably lose a couple of lbs of fat and being moderate about their deficit, your statement is essentially correct. But the problem is, with MFP most people aren't in that range, in fact, a large percentage of people on MFP are either obese and looking for a huge deficit, or in many cases, don't understand the human metabolism well enough to understand that a huge deficit just doesn't work for someone looking to lose 10 lbs of fat. So they come on looking to lose 15 or 20 lbs and choose a 2 lb a week goal even though they are essentially sabotaging their efforts without even knowing it.

It's just something I've picked up after years of being on here.

FemininGuns

Hi, I've been here since July, lost 14lbs so far.

I noticed the past couple of weeks that I've been feeling sluggish. 3 weeks ago, I changed my diet (please view diary to assess), started going to bed earlier as I go to the gym at 5am. Cut out wine/beer or any alcoholic beverage...

I feel that I am eating pretty clean... However, I am wondering if my sluggishness is due to not enough carbs in my diet. I do a lot of cardio (4 times per week in the AM at the gym at 40 min. each, twice a week in the evening go running for aroun 30 minutes and I do a long run on the weekend that's about 1hr long) and lift weights 5 times a week. Anyway, if anyone has input on if I should increase carb intake (good ones) or if I should be ok in what I'm eating please let me know.



I want to continue losing at a slow pace, but I want to be full of energy the majority of the time instead of possibly 2 days out of 7...

Thanks!

When is the last time you had a break from training?

4 weeks ago had an injury... had to stay off for a week...

rml_16

So, you're disputing the Cleveland Clinic?

OK then.

Yes I am. Dispute non credible info like you posted is what I do. Why, is the CC above being questioned?

THE CLEVELAND CLINIC is not credible? Are you serious? Now I'm laughing.

And it's not 1g/POUND of body weight. It's per kilogram. Totally different unit of measurement. Please show me a single source that states 1g/pound for ANYONE. I've never seen that. Not even on bodybuilding websites.

in regards to this specific topic they/you are not..

Well, I have yet to see you post a single source to back up your own claim, so I think I'll stick with the one I found.

If the Cleveland Clinic is a poor source, then I don't know what a good one would be. (And the Mayo Clinic says exactly the same thing, by the way. But I guess two of the most reputable and state-of-the-art health care facilities in the world aren't as up on this as you obviously are.)

You can also find the same information on Livestrong.com. But Lance Armstrong wouldn't know anything about this stuff, I'm sure.

SHBoss1673

1 to 1.25 g/lb of protein is a maximum given out by many professional body builders. While I personally find it to be overkill even for professional body building, for the bulking phase of a body builder's training schedule it's usually regarded as the top end of what they normally do.

Of course this is only done for a very specific time period of the bulking phase and is lowered during the cut phase and is then raised back up for about 2 weeks before the competition. BUT it's raised usually because most body builders like to go ketogenic right before a competition to remove any excess water from their system and thus they must, by default, raise their protein and fat intake to make up the difference.

If she is looking to do this, then she's doing some other things that are going to counteract it anyway (I.E. you can't gain muscle mass while in catabolism anyway, so extra protein isn't going to do anything for you besides repair muscle, and you don't need 1 gram per lb or anywhere near that to sustain existing muscle mass for most people).

In other words, if she's trying to drop fat, she doesn't need 1 g/lb of protein, if she's trying to gain muscle mass, then she needs to get into an anabolic state first anyway.

So this is really all just a matter of perspective. I think rml is coming from a more normal weight loss and health perspective, in which case 1g/lb is overkill.

nick1109

So, you're disputing the Cleveland Clinic?

OK then.

Yes I am. Dispute non credible info like you posted is what I do. Why, is the CC above being questioned?

THE CLEVELAND CLINIC is not credible? Are you serious? Now I'm laughing.

And it's not 1g/POUND of body weight. It's per kilogram. Totally different unit of measurement. Please show me a single source that states 1g/pound for ANYONE. I've never seen that. Not even on bodybuilding websites.

http://www.learn-bodybuilding.com/nutrition_protein_requirements_for_bodybuilders.aspx



Here is just one source. There are plenty of university studies out there advising of 2g/1lb and plenty of the books published by body builders advising this. So not much point agruing the point in my opinion.

There are also other studies out there conducted by Mentzer/ Dr Mcgough suggesting you only need a balanced diet with around a g per KG even for body building

each study seems to be a contridiction to the other so there is no right answer but protein is for growth and repair so makes sense to provide the body with plenty of protein if you are training intensly wih weights as the OP is.

SHBoss1673

http://www.learn-bodybuilding.com/nutrition_protein_requirements_for_bodybuilders.aspx



Here is just one source. There are plenty of university studies out there advising of 2g/1lb and plenty of the books published by body builders advising this. So not much point agruing the point in my opinion.

There are also other studies out there conducted by Mentzer/ Dr Mcgough suggesting you only need a balanced diet with around a g per KG even for body building

each study seems to be a contridiction to the other so there is no right answer but protein is for growth and repair so makes sense to provide the body with plenty of protein if you are training intensly wih weights as the OP is.

Granted I don't go hunting for body building requirements, but I've read plenty of studies on protein requirements, and I've never seen anyone recommend more than 1.25 grams per pound. Not with any science to back it up at least. Caveat: except those who are ketogenic (different situation and not applicable).

I still say that no matter what intense training she is doing, she isn't going to be building any new muscle, she's in a caloric deficit, and you can't build muscle mass while in a catabolic state. To maintain existing muscle mass the maximum amount of protein calories you need (assuming you are taking in enough fats and carbohydrates to fill out energy requirements and you're not canabalizing protein to fill out the energy needs) is 1 g per kg (or 1 gram per every 2.2 lbs), even for an athlete. It's only when you are trying to build new mass that you should be looking to go higher.

cakefarm

To the OP - I will also email you this but I also highly recommend Schuler's The New Rules of Lifting for Women which has some nutritional information from Cassandra Forsythe, who is really good.

To the anti-protein poster - we'll just agree to disagree.

chocolateandvodka

ding! ding! ding! opposite corners people....

musclebuilder

So, you're disputing the Cleveland Clinic?

OK then.

Yes I am. Dispute non credible info like you posted is what I do. Why, is the CC above being questioned?

THE CLEVELAND CLINIC is not credible? Are you serious? Now I'm laughing.

And it's not 1g/POUND of body weight. It's per kilogram. Totally different unit of measurement. Please show me a single source that states 1g/pound for ANYONE. I've never seen that. Not even on bodybuilding websites.

in regards to this specific topic they/you are not..

Well, I have yet to see you post a single source to back up your own claim, so I think I'll stick with the one I found.

If the Cleveland Clinic is a poor source, then I don't know what a good one would be. (And the Mayo Clinic says exactly the same thing, by the way. But I guess two of the most reputable and state-of-the-art health care facilities in the world aren't as up on this as you obviously are.)

You can also find the same information on Livestrong.com. But Lance Armstrong wouldn't know anything about this stuff, I'm sure.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/74/6/707

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/74/6/737?ijkey=ba726fbfae49cf08c438252c366efe7ef8249b3a&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha

Azdak

As often happens in these "drive by debates" there seems to be a lack of common grounds for discussion.

IMO, anything that has to do with body building is "off the table", so to speak. Not that I am trying to denigrate bodybuilders, but that is a specialized performance activity that has nothing to do with health or fitness. so I don't think it is particularly relevant.

I can't remember if I missed the specific quote from the Cleveland Clinic, but often one must be careful about interpreting data from these sites. I find that much of the health information, while accurate, tends to be very general and does not often venture from consensus guidelines for the average, mostly sedentary individual. And lastly, ANYTHING on livestrong.com should be taken with a huge truckload of salt. The content on that site is assembled by a media marketing firm and consists primarily of hundreds of individuals writing stuff at their homes and sending it in for $0.10 or so per word. They do review and edit the articles, but the volume of product they get (they also sell the content to other sites) is large enough that they can't evaluate it in depth.

Back to the "main" topic - or at least the main "sidetracked" topic.

While it is true that an excess of different substrates can lead to increased fat storage, from what I understand, technically, protein and carbohydrate are not "converted" to fat to any great degree.

Basically, fat is primarily converted to storage after intake--70% to 80% of it. Increasing fat intake does not increase fat oxidation to any great degree.

For both carbs and protein, increasing intake leads to increased oxidation of the substrate--and a decrease in fat oxidation. So, while overeating carbs and protein CAN make you fat, it's not because they are converted to fat. It's because they decrease fat oxidation and lead to even greater storage of the fat that you eat.

So why not just eat zero fat? Well, there's a "catch". The exception to the above explanation is when you decrease fat intake to very low amounts. If fat intake is under 10% of total calories, the body DOES increase the rate of converting carbs and protein to fat.

Protein is not a magic substance. For the average person, I think the guidelines have been pretty well stated: .8g to 1.0g per pound of body wt should be fine. A little more won't hurt. Other guidelines I have seen are 1.2g -1.4g/kg for strength athletes and 1.4g-1.6g/kg for endurance athletes (higher rate is mostly due to lower overall mass). I have also seen a study that showed a weight-loss benefit for females who ingested 100g protein per day, even if lower body mass meant they were going above 1.0g/kg. Body builders and power lifters like to go higher I know, but, again, they have specialized needs and are poor examples to emulate.

it also comes down to something I wrote about in another blog---for the average person, just following a consistent schedule and doing quality workouts (cardio and resistance) will have a MUCH greater improvement effect than all the protein shakes, supplements, water, etc, combined.