Am I over-analyzing this? MedGem BMR question

Halziees

I spent several years with an eating disorder, so I finally decided to have my metabolism tested. I went to a clinic that used MedGem. It came out with 1420 as my BMR, which is only slightly lower than what most of the online calculators & formulas suggested.

I followed all the rules... No eating, no caffiene, no exercise 4 hours prior (though mine was more like 12 hours or more, since my test was in the AM).

I didn't sit in a dim room for 15 minutes like some sites have said to do though, before taking MedGem. I just went into the clinic, sat in a normal lit room for like 5-7 minutes or so, then took this test.

Anyway, is it relatively "safe" to trust MedGem then?

Thanks for any opinions.

crissi725

As with everything, I've heard good and bad about MedGem. However....

The best you can do is get an good ESTIMATE of your BMR. Make sure you eat enough to cover it. Adding in 300-400 calories more a day is great too if you have a moderately active lifestyle. I'm not sure what kind of eating disorder you had so I am hesitant to give you advice about gaining or losing weight. But you DO need to eat at least your BMR no matter what. Period.

rbiss

As with everything, I've heard good and bad about MedGem. However....

The best you can do is get an good ESTIMATE of your BMR. Make sure you eat enough to cover it. Adding in 300-400 calories more a day is great too if you have a moderately active lifestyle. I'm not sure what kind of eating disorder you had so I am hesitant to give you advice about gaining or losing weight. But you DO need to eat at least your BMR no matter what. Period.

You don't need to eat at your BMR. Mine is around 2000 and this site has my calories at 1600ish. It can be different for different people. That being said, these are all estimates, don't stress out too much about it.

Halziees

As with everything, I've heard good and bad about MedGem. However....

The best you can do is get an good ESTIMATE of your BMR. Make sure you eat enough to cover it. Adding in 300-400 calories more a day is great too if you have a moderately active lifestyle. I'm not sure what kind of eating disorder you had so I am hesitant to give you advice about gaining or losing weight. But you DO need to eat at least your BMR no matter what. Period.

Thank you. I am definitely going to eat at BMR. I have been in recovery for a little while now (with a few minor relapses). I am actually looking to start "clean bulking", and building muscle… and the idea of eating OVER my daily TDEE is a bit scary to me, to say the least. That was another reason behind MedGem.

I guess my worry was if MedGem was overestimating by like, 400 calories. Though I suppose I would start gaining weight pretty rapidly if so. I am quite active (I think)… I walk about 3 miles everyday, intense cardio at the gym 3-4x/week, and then I weight train very heavy 3x/week. But my job has me on my bum all day, so maybe I am moderately active?

Halziees

You don't need to eat at your BMR. Mine is around 2000 and this site has my calories at 1600ish. It can be different for different people. That being said, these are all estimates, don't stress out too much about it.

Thank you. I know I am obsessing!

rbiss

Sorry just realized you want to maintain weight. My answer is still the same though, they are all estimates, punch in the numbers, eat what the site says and adjust what you eat accordingly. Then you will be able to figure out how many calories you really need to maintain.

rileysowner

Eating at BMR will not maintain weight. It is the minimum number of calories your body burns simply functioning. Once you start moving you start to burn more than your BMR. Eating at BMR is eating at a deficit unless you are in bed all day not moving at all.

einzweidrei

Thank you. I am definitely going to eat at BMR.

You don't eat at BMR.

Halziees

Thank you. I am definitely going to eat at BMR.

You don't eat at BMR.

I know this. There seems to be some major confusion to what I am asking here, so apologies if I was not very clear. I am just wondering how accurate MedGem is at predicting BMR, and if anyone had any experience with it. As I stated, I am looking to eat OVER TDEE because I am looking to add lean mass.

However, to calculate TDEE, you need an accurate idea of your BMR.

rileysowner

The Medgem, if used properly, will give a fairly accurate number. More accurate than the charts the go by overall averages based on age, height, weight, and sex. I would simply go with that number, track your calories very carefully, and based on your bodies response adjust your calories.

MinnieInMaine

As with everything, I've heard good and bad about MedGem. However....

The best you can do is get an good ESTIMATE of your BMR. Make sure you eat enough to cover it. Adding in 300-400 calories more a day is great too if you have a moderately active lifestyle. I'm not sure what kind of eating disorder you had so I am hesitant to give you advice about gaining or losing weight. But you DO need to eat at least your BMR no matter what. Period.

You don't need to eat at your BMR. Mine is around 2000 and this site has my calories at 1600ish. It can be different for different people. That being said, these are all estimates, don't stress out too much about it.

I saw you apologized but still wanted to add - please do be careful with giving this kind of advice. Just because MFP set you at 1600 doesn't mean it's healthy or right for you. The program is only as good as the data its given. Also, while a higher calorie deficit might be ok for someone who has a lot to lose, someone closer to goal should not eat below their BMR. It creates too high of a calorie deficit and is not healthy.

sijomial

However, to calculate TDEE, you need an accurate idea of your BMR.

I disagree - I think knowing your BMR is a particularly useless piece of information. Even RMR doesn't really help or have any useful application unless you are completely inactive.

Knowing your TDEE on the other hand is very useful information for anyone losing, maintaining or gaining.

If your food logging is accurate and you know your change in weight over a reasonable period of time you can calculate your TDEE from your own data. Just takes a bit of data entry and basic number crunching.

Halziees

The Medgem, if used properly, will give a fairly accurate number. More accurate than the charts the go by overall averages based on age, height, weight, and sex. I would simply go with that number, track your calories very carefully, and based on your bodies response adjust your calories.

Thank you so much, RileysOwner. I guess my nerves were just wanting someone to tell me it was "ok" to trust this number and try it out for awhile. I've run the numbers with the 1420 as my BMR… now on to attempting to eat 2000+ cals a day, haha.

Halziees

However, to calculate TDEE, you need an accurate idea of your BMR.

I disagree - I think knowing your BMR is a particularly useless piece of information. Even RMR doesn't really help or have any useful application unless you are completely inactive.

Knowing your TDEE on the other hand is very useful information for anyone losing, maintaining or gaining.

If your food logging is accurate and you know your change in weight over a reasonable period of time you can calculate your TDEE from your own data. Just takes a bit of data entry and basic number crunching.

Interesting. But isn't BMR or RMR what determines your TDEE? Perhaps I have this all wrong then. I thought BMR was the "first" number you needed to crunch numbers for calories? Can you explain a bit more?

MyChocolateDiet

prolly since i don't even know what those things even mean. CICO

Halziees

prolly since i don't even know what those things even mean. CICO

this seriously made me LOL.

heybales

However, to calculate TDEE, you need an accurate idea of your BMR.

I disagree - I think knowing your BMR is a particularly useless piece of information. Even RMR doesn't really help or have any useful application unless you are completely inactive.

Knowing your TDEE on the other hand is very useful information for anyone losing, maintaining or gaining.

If your food logging is accurate and you know your change in weight over a reasonable period of time you can calculate your TDEE from your own data. Just takes a bit of data entry and basic number crunching.

Interesting. But isn't BMR or RMR what determines your TDEE? Perhaps I have this all wrong then. I thought BMR was the "first" number you needed to crunch numbers for calories? Can you explain a bit more?

Not at all, only in calculations when you don't measure your TDEE.

BMR is a part of TDEE, just like energy burned to process food (TEF), energy on non-exercise daily activity (NEAT), and exercise calories (EAT).

I still can't find reference to the test - if it was with a face mask capturing your breathing for 15-20 min, and this wasn't in the mall or a surprise visit to the gym (I know it wasn't) - then very good chance of being accurate RMR.

RMR, not BMR. RMR is awake resting, not asleep. Should be higher than BMR by 150-250 calories.

So if this RMR measurement equaled your online calcs for BMR - then it is indeed lower than it probably could be.

But then again - you likely lost some muscle mass from your disease. So it actually may be low but very correct for your amount of body fat and LBM.

Either way, know it better can help with the normal calculations to _estimate_ your TDEE.

But as mentioned above, if you are clearly coming in from the high side of eating enough, results trump estimates.

I say high side, because you can suppress your TDEE by eating too little.

But if rough calculations say your TDEE is say 2000.
And you accurately log and eat 2000.
And over 4 weeks you lose 2 lb of weight, not related to invalid weigh in day or other normal reasons for water fluctuations (for a woman, you really need a month to go by), then you can say the following.

2 lbs x 3500 / 28 days = 250 calorie difference between eating level and real TDEE for whatever your routine was then.

Ate 2000 + 250 (since you lost weight) = 2250 is real TDEE for whatever the average level of activity was during that 4 weeks.

Opposite if you were to gain 2 lbs over 4 weeks.

So indeed use the RMR test to get a better rough estimate of TDEE.
And in fact use it down the road to compare to see if eating at maintenance or higher has allowed it to recover. Because it can.

heybales

Thank you. I am definitely going to eat at BMR. I have been in recovery for a little while now (with a few minor relapses). I am actually looking to start "clean bulking", and building muscle… and the idea of eating OVER my daily TDEE is a bit scary to me, to say the least. That was another reason behind MedGem.

I guess my worry was if MedGem was overestimating by like, 400 calories. Though I suppose I would start gaining weight pretty rapidly if so. I am quite active (I think)… I walk about 3 miles everyday, intense cardio at the gym 3-4x/week, and then I weight train very heavy 3x/week. But my job has me on my bum all day, so maybe I am moderately active?

Use the spreadsheet on my profile page if you want better activity calculator for getting TDEE.
You can even put your RMR stat in there and it will be used, as well as comparing to what BMR would be expected based on bodyfat %, and a few calcs to estimate that.

If you have been in a diet, and you start eating more - you will gain water weight.
Everyone loses some glycogen stores going in to a diet, that attaches with water. You will gain that back when eating enough.
Faster and maybe 1-3 lbs max. Won't show up usually because it's in the muscles.

So if you want to build muscle - cut out the intense cardio. When you start eating more, the response by the body is to store even more carbs for that mainly carb burning activity.

Unless you just want your TDEE higher by burning more so you have to eat more, no need to do it.
It'll make it harder to put on muscle, which is going to be hard for you anyway as woman.
If you just love the feeling of intervals, do it after the lifting, before you start repairing. Adding another load to muscles trying to repair and get stronger is just going to kill the repair process, and intervals are another load.
Walking on between days is just fine, or cardio in the Active Recovery HR zone is fine (sadly called the fat-burning zone) to get blood flow and aid healing.

Halziees

Not at all, only in calculations when you don't measure your TDEE.

BMR is a part of TDEE, just like energy burned to process food (TEF), energy on non-exercise daily activity (NEAT), and exercise calories (EAT).

I still can't find reference to the test - if it was with a face mask capturing your breathing for 15-20 min, and this wasn't in the mall or a surprise visit to the gym (I know it wasn't) - then very good chance of being accurate RMR.

RMR, not BMR. RMR is awake resting, not asleep. Should be higher than BMR by 150-250 calories.

So if this RMR measurement equaled your online calcs for BMR - then it is indeed lower than it probably could be.

But then again - you likely lost some muscle mass from your disease. So it actually may be low but very correct for your amount of body fat and LBM.

Either way, know it better can help with the normal calculations to _estimate_ your TDEE.

But as mentioned above, if you are clearly coming in from the high side of eating enough, results trump estimates.

I say high side, because you can suppress your TDEE by eating too little.

But if rough calculations say your TDEE is say 2000.
And you accurately log and eat 2000.
And over 4 weeks you lose 2 lb of weight, not related to invalid weigh in day or other normal reasons for water fluctuations (for a woman, you really need a month to go by), then you can say the following.

2 lbs x 3500 / 28 days = 250 calorie difference between eating level and real TDEE for whatever your routine was then.

Ate 2000 + 250 (since you lost weight) = 2250 is real TDEE for whatever the average level of activity was during that 4 weeks.

Opposite if you were to gain 2 lbs over 4 weeks.

So indeed use the RMR test to get a better rough estimate of TDEE.
And in fact use it down the road to compare to see if eating at maintenance or higher has allowed it to recover. Because it can.

Wow, two awesome and informative posts. Thank you for taking the time to write me and help me!

Anyway, after looking at the test sheet again, I suppose it is RMR that was measured, not BMR. I thought they were one and the same, with just interchangeable terminology! Oops. But regardless, my RMR is then 1420. I took this test at a weight loss clinic I found in a nearby city, so no, not in a mall or gym or anything of the sort. I sat with my nose plugged and breathed into a little machine with a mouthpiece for probably 10 minutes or so. It went by fairly quickly.

Also, with regards to my body fat… online calculations had me at 20.4 approximately, but I was tested for body fat % at the clinic, too, and I am 16% (which was lower than I thought I would be). So is this what is also making the RMR come back somewhat low?

I do want to build up lean muscle mass, because I know I have lost quite a bit of health through my illness and poor choices. I don't want to starve myself ever again, so I have been eating at about 1800-1900 calories a day as of late. On intense exercise days I am eating around 2200-2400. It's just what feels "right", and that is what I was taught to do after recovering from the eating disorder. To listen to internal cues for hunger, and internal cues for fullness. But it does strike me as exceptionally high.

However, I will just keep plugging away, as I am lifting heavy and hoping any excess might go to building lean mass instead of fat. Also, thank you for the heads up on the spreadsheet in your profile. Checking that out now.

Thank you again!!

Halziees

And in fact use it down the road to compare to see if eating at maintenance or higher has allowed it to recover. Because it can.

Oh, one other question then… I can actually "heal" my metabolism somewhat by eating at TDEE consistently and through consistent exercise/weight training? Do you happen to know how long that recovery takes?

_Terrapin_

Go to heybales site and use the spreadsheet; then do it again in 2 months. Best of luck.

heybales

And in fact use it down the road to compare to see if eating at maintenance or higher has allowed it to recover. Because it can.

Oh, one other question then… I can actually "heal" my metabolism somewhat by eating at TDEE consistently and through consistent exercise/weight training? Do you happen to know how long that recovery takes?

Here is one study where the metabolic inefficiency started to come back. (calling the suppressed system metabolically efficient, meaning burning less than prior, not based on anything except diet effect).
For the small eating calorie group, took 3 months eating at tested TDEE to increase by about 1/2 what had been suppressed.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/heybales/view/reduced-metabolism-tdee-beyond-expected-from-weight-loss-616251

Here's a case study of someone that still had weight to lose, so probably made repair easier, meaning the good logging and reporting only occurred on the fixing side, so not really study, except it's obvious that it was lower than it needed to be, because it came up.

A similar case study was published by Jampolis (2004).
A 51 year old patient complained of a 15 lb weight gain over the last year despite beginning a strenuous triathlon and marathon training program (2 hours per day, 5-6 days per week).
A 3 day diet analysis estimated a daily intake of only 1000-1200 Calories.
An indirect calorimetry revealed a resting metabolic rate of 950 Calories (28% below predicted for age, height, weight, and gender).
After medications and medical conditions such as hypothyroidism and diabetes where ruled out, the final diagnosis was over-training and undereating. The following treatment was recommended:

Increase daily dietary intake by approximately 100 Calories per week to a goal of 1500 calories
32% protein; 35% carbohydrates; 33% fat
Consume 5-6 small meals per day
Small amounts of protein with each meal or snack
Choose high fiber starches
Select mono- and poly- unsaturated fats
Restrict consumption of starch with evening meals unless focused around training
Take daily multi-vitamin and mineral supplement
Perform whole body isometric resistance training 2 times per week

After 6 weeks the patient's resting metabolism increased 35% to 1282 Calories per day (only 2% below predicted).
The patient also decreases percent fat from 37% to 34%, a loss of 5 lbs of body fat.

Jampolis MB (2004) Weight Gain - Marathon Runner / Triathlete. Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise, 36(5) S148.

heybales

Wow, two awesome and informative posts. Thank you for taking the time to write me and help me!

Anyway, after looking at the test sheet again, I suppose it is RMR that was measured, not BMR. I thought they were one and the same, with just interchangeable terminology! Oops. But regardless, my RMR is then 1420. I took this test at a weight loss clinic I found in a nearby city, so no, not in a mall or gym or anything of the sort. I sat with my nose plugged and breathed into a little machine with a mouthpiece for probably 10 minutes or so. It went by fairly quickly.

Also, with regards to my body fat… online calculations had me at 20.4 approximately, but I was tested for body fat % at the clinic, too, and I am 16% (which was lower than I thought I would be). So is this what is also making the RMR come back somewhat low?

I do want to build up lean muscle mass, because I know I have lost quite a bit of health through my illness and poor choices. I don't want to starve myself ever again, so I have been eating at about 1800-1900 calories a day as of late. On intense exercise days I am eating around 2200-2400. It's just what feels "right", and that is what I was taught to do after recovering from the eating disorder. To listen to internal cues for hunger, and internal cues for fullness. But it does strike me as exceptionally high.

However, I will just keep plugging away, as I am lifting heavy and hoping any excess might go to building lean mass instead of fat. Also, thank you for the heads up on the spreadsheet in your profile. Checking that out now.

Thank you again!!

Ok, so that was standard metabolic cart RMR test. Tad short at 10 min though, usually hear of 15-20 min, sitting in calm room, laid back - really resting.
So valid enough.

You might ask though if they do go to malls and gyms though, not because you want to go there to use it. Because if they do, they know full well the tests are invalid on surprise like that for folks paying for it. You listed the rules for the state the body must be in, if not in that state, and invalid results for folks using it at places like that - they usually don't waste the time and money properly calibrating the equipment frequently.
If not calibrated, then even you showing up with body in proper state isn't useful.
So here's hopefully to them saying no they don't do it. You can decide if brave enough to ask how often it's calibrated.

How did they test BF%?
7-site Skinfold method in the hands of experienced person can be upwards of 5% accurate with body in correct state - and yours was that morning.
Scale or handhelds can be upwards of 5% too, for good models, otherwise 10%.

Low bodyfat won't result in lower RMR figure, low LBM will, compared to others your age, weight, height. That very athletic BF% is not going to be average, so that wouldn't be the reason.

Oh, Lean Body Mass (LBM) is everything not Fat Mass (FM), it includes muscle, bone, organs, water, ect.
There is no such thing as lean muscle mass for trying to get it. Some muscle has more fat in it than others depending on location, and you have no control over that mostly. Endurance cardio encourages it though, but other than that, your muscle isn't a cut of beef. It's going to be what it's going to be.

Good job eating according to the workouts. Hope they gave all the cues for reading the body well for hunger.
Many that say read the body are totally unaware of how the body can fool you, even the simple fact of eating too little can make hunger go away.
For instance, I can get physically and mentally involved in a project, and not eat 4 hrs beyond when I know I should.
Or get done with massive cardio session, and if I wait too long to eat, don't feel hungry for a long while. Or really hot and get the water and electrolytes in first and not feel hungry.
But my brain knows better, especially if I want to recover as best as possible, and have another great workout tomorrow.

The lifting is the best thing to do either eating at maintenance, or a tad over if trying to get metabolism back up again.
If some calories are in surplus for awhile, the body will know exactly what to do with them when you have a good lifting program.