Squat Question

weightliftingdiva

So the trainer in the gym gave me some advice after she saw me doing BW squats, some of which I definitely agree with and some of which I don't. I wanted your two cents.

First, which I agree with, she said my knees are coming together/in when I squat, instead of staying over my toes. I definitely agree with this and was wondering if anyone had any ideas to help correct it.

Second, my toes are pointed out at an angle instead of being parallel and straight forward. I've always had a natural turn out and find it uncomfortable to force my feet parallel for long periods of time. Is she right? Should I try and keep my feet parallel? Will doing it this way increase my hip flexibility?

Finally, the trainer didn't say this - but I've realized I have a serious muscle imbalance and that my left leg is way weaker then my right leg. Any suggestions on how to bring the left leg up to speed?

Thanks everyone.

ValGogo

Hmmmm, I wonder if one legged dead lifts would help that?

The knees coming in.....is it maybe how your bones are put together? What if you try doing the squat while holding onto something and see if you can do it that way. If you CAN, then it's just a matter of building the strength in that part of your body.

I love squats.

geek23ka

everyone's squat stance is different. these days it's pretty popular to harp on feet forward because of kelly starrett, who has some great mobility ideas, but *most* squatters turn their foot a bit outside. some even turn their foot way outside. kelly starrett, in one of his videos where he is talking with a powerlifter with a monster total, even said that because this guy has great mobility and get down really well in his squat stance and his knees travel in line with his toes, that turning out the foot is fine.

hip mobility is huge. and i will link you to one of his hip drills that helps me....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBHzXF-mVjY&index=4&list=FLpB8crLkITkrUQWPebvLjxg

i also have a severe leg strength discrepancy. some of it is is exacerbated by lack of mobility,, so mobility is key! but leg strength discrepancy can be fixed with the following
HEAVY sled drags (as heavy as you can make it and get 50 yards or so)
heavy prowler work
if none of that is available to you, then hill sprints help.

lunges. lunges of all kinds. make a workout of yours The Death of a Thousand Lunges. i include bulgarian split squats in lunges. do backward lunges, weighted walking lunges, split squats, plie squats. etc.

finally, likely you also have weak adductor in relation to your quads. they will strengthen in time. i don't use machines, but people seem to like the good girl/bad girl machine for adductors/abductors. or, for now, you can just cue yourself to push knees OUT when you squat.

juliewatkin

Knee cave is a fairly common issue and one I fought with for a long time. Your knees pull in as your body tries to recruit your quads to take over for a weaker posterior chain (glutes/hamstrings). You can work on strengthening your posterior chain. In addition, when you are coming out of the hole, focus on really pushing your knees out hard. It may be worsened by foot position. I find when I'm using a wider stance and my toes are more turned out, my knees cave more.

As far as your trainers comments on foot position, he/she may be right. It depends on how far they are turned out and it may be contributing to knee cave. However, I can't imagine having your toes straight forward. When you squat your knees track out and your toes should face where your knees track. My feet are generally at a 30 degree angle.

As for imbalances, I'm not sure about that.

bbb84

My knees start to come in when i get fatigued and my quads start trying to compensate. Honestly, the best advice I can give is to slow down and really focus on form, be mindful of your knees and keep working at it until you get the basic form down. Quality beats quantity. As far as toes pointed out, I've been trained to do it both ways, toes pointed out is usually suggested to people who's knee tend to track inside. There are many squat progressions, maybe consider a box squat or sitting down on the edge of a bench until your strength improves. The modifications will also help ensure you are pushing your hips back first as well.

weightliftingdiva

finally, likely you also have weak adductor in relation to your quads. they will strengthen in time. i don't use machines, but people seem to like the good girl/bad girl machine for adductors/abductors. or, for now, you can just cue yourself to push knees OUT when you squat.

Good girl/bad girl machine? :happy: That's a first.

Thanks for the advice everyone - I'll practice a lot with the mirror and really focus on how my feet positioning is affecting my knees, and if I need to adjust my feet positioning. Lunge workouts sounds great and Ill definitely consider it. I'm also going to look into single-leg deadlift stances to work on both fixing my knee cave and strengthening the left leg.

JoRocka

everyone's squat stance is different. these days it's pretty popular to harp on feet forward because of kelly starrett, who has some great mobility ideas, but *most* squatters turn their foot a bit outside. some even turn their foot way outside. kelly starrett, in one of his videos where he is talking with a powerlifter with a monster total, even said that because this guy has great mobility and get down really well in his squat stance and his knees travel in line with his toes, that turning out the foot is fine.

hip mobility is huge. and i will link you to one of his hip drills that helps me....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBHzXF-mVjY&index=4&list=FLpB8crLkITkrUQWPebvLjxg

i also have a severe leg strength discrepancy. some of it is is exacerbated by lack of mobility,, so mobility is key! but leg strength discrepancy can be fixed with the following
HEAVY sled drags (as heavy as you can make it and get 50 yards or so)
heavy prowler work
if none of that is available to you, then hill sprints help.

lunges. lunges of all kinds. make a workout of yours The Death of a Thousand Lunges. i include bulgarian split squats in lunges. do backward lunges, weighted walking lunges, split squats, plie squats. etc.

finally, likely you also have weak adductor in relation to your quads. they will strengthen in time. i don't use machines, but people seem to like the good girl/bad girl machine for adductors/abductors. or, for now, you can just cue yourself to push knees OUT when you squat.

this. lots of this.

Holly_Roman_Empire

I have leg strength discrepancy as well, mostly due to a prior knee injury. Isolating your individual legs will help tremendously. Do some Bulgarian split squats, pistol squats, and lunges. It will help.

_lyndseybrooke_

I don't know about that last question, but your toes SHOULD be pointed out slightly. Almost every squat form video I've seen has the person pointing their toes slightly outward. However, that should keep your knees from going inward when you squat down. Not sure why your knees are still coming in if your toes are pointed out.

JTick

My toes point out at a 45 degree angle when I squat. Facing them straight forward puts too much strain on knees I already have problems with. As long as your knees follow the lines of your toes, you should be okay to have them pointed out some. You do not want to point your toes out and then have your knees move straight forward when you squat...the knees follow the toes.

I also have a problem with my knees coming in...I have to consciously think about keeping my knees out when I squat. Lots of practice on proper form and constantly thinking "knees out" helps.

Chaskavitch

Definitely Bulgarian split squats for the leg discrepancy. Start with a weight that your weak leg can handle, and do that for both legs, even if your strong leg could totally do more. They are TOUGH, but make sure to go at least parallel to the ground with the front leg. That will help you use your hamstrings and posterior chain as well, to build those up a little.

I've mostly seen people with their knees coming in when they're doing too much weight, which is probably related to all the other comments about weak adductors or other muscles not being up to par with your quads. The lunges/split squats will help with that a little, because you'll have to stabilize yourself differently. Do your squats with a lower weight until you catch up, because your form is so much more important than the weight right now. You don't want to hurt yourself, and you'll probably make gains pretty quickly if you've only recently started lifting.

Speaking of Bulgarian split squats, I saw a video on FB of Christmas Abbot doing them with 155#, and I wanted to cry. I use 2 20# dumbbells and I have trouble getting through my third set of 10. She is a beast.

TR0berts

Re: toes/feet and where they're pointing. It's really quite simple. Stand normally with your feet as wide as they are going to be when you squat. Don't even think about doing anything regarding to where they're pointing - just stand as you would. Now look down - that's how they should be. If they're normally straight, keep them that way. If they're normally angled, keep them that way. Too many people, IMO, get out of position with their feet by thinking that they have to have them aligned a certain way. This leads to unnatural motions and torques around the hips, ankles, and knees. This is bad. As has been mentioned - typically, wider stances = more angle - but everyone is slightly different.

As far as correcting imbalances goes, I'd recommend single-leg work. Lunges, Bulgarian split squats, single leg squats, single leg presses/extensions/curls, etc. Whatever you do on the left leg, do on the right leg. You'll probably always have a little difference, but you can close the gap quite a bit by focusing on single-leg movements.

No_Finish_Line

willing to bet that your knees wont travel in if you use a somewhat lighter weight, maybe use a lower weight till you get your form down.

I wouldn't worry too much about the strength imbalance, over time it should even out a lot, even without directly addressing it.

TR0berts

willing to bet that your knees wont travel in if you use a somewhat lighter weight, maybe use a lower weight till you get your form down.

They are bodyweight squats. Not going lighter until OP loses weight.

JoRocka

I don't know about that last question, but your toes SHOULD be pointed out slightly. Almost every squat form video I've seen has the person pointing their toes slightly outward. However, that should keep your knees from going inward when you squat down. Not sure why your knees are still coming in if your toes are pointed out.

slight turn out or no turn out is fine. as long as the knee is out and not in that's a bigger issue.

No_Finish_Line

willing to bet that your knees wont travel in if you use a somewhat lighter weight, maybe use a lower weight till you get your form down.

They are bodyweight squats. Not going lighter until OP loses weight.

lol missed that part. i just remember my friend in college had this problem on the leg press and it just really looked like he was over doing it. looked like he was going break his legs practically

janjanorama

I had a simillar issue with my knees caving in and my trainer told me to practice bw squats using a swiss ball at my back and with a resistance band round my calves.( Like the girl in the 2nd picture here http://www.fitsugar.com/Squat-Walks-Resistance-Band-22554623 )

After doing this for 5 weeks, I've been able to start using the squat rack again, but I still use the resistance band for my warm up set. I can't say enough how much it helped me correct the problems I was having, if you have a band you can use I'd highly recommend.

JoRocka

using a resistance band around the thighs right above the knee is a great option- if you don't keep your knees out- it falls down!

Leadfoot_Lewis

I have the same issue with heavy squats - my right knees loves to cave in. This is due to having weak Abductors. Seriously the best thing you can do is train the movement (squat more!) and force your knees OUT when you squat, almost to the point it's exaggerated. That and doing other heavy leg work e.g. Barbell Lunges and isolation work - Cable Abduction, etc. has helped me tremendously.

OkRebeccaJay

The exercises in this article really helped me!
http://breakingmuscle.com/mobility-recovery/squat-therapy-4-drills-that-will-improve-your-squat

Also, the more you squat the more natural it will become, try holding at the bottom, hold your ankles and gently (GENTLY!) place outward pressure on your knees with your elbows for a few seconds - this is how I stopped my knees turning in so much at the bottom of a squat

weightliftingdiva

I had a simillar issue with my knees caving in and my trainer told me to practice bw squats using a swiss ball at my back and with a resistance band round my calves.( Like the girl in the 2nd picture here http://www.fitsugar.com/Squat-Walks-Resistance-Band-22554623 )

After doing this for 5 weeks, I've been able to start using the squat rack again, but I still use the resistance band for my warm up set. I can't say enough how much it helped me correct the problems I was having, if you have a band you can use I'd highly recommend.

This is a great idea too!

Thanks everyone - your feedback has been very helpful, I'll keep you updated. ^.^

wonderbeard101

Knees caving are generally indicative of poor glute activation. Knees out is one cue to train this. Another one is to imagine "corkscrewing" your feet into the ground. Your feet don't move but you torque them outwards at the hip. Do this before you start the descent and all the way through to lockout. This does the same thing as "knees out" but is just a different way of thinking about the action.

dixiewhiskey

Knees caving are generally indicative of poor glute activation. Knees out is one cue to train this. Another one is to imagine "corkscrewing" your feet into the ground. Your feet don't move but you torque them outwards at the hip. Do this before you start the descent and all the way through to lockout. This does the same thing as "knees out" but is just a different way of thinking about the action.

This +1