How much will I benefit from a clean bulk?

white_rushin

I'm 19 years old, 6'2" male that weighs 160 lbs. I determined that outside of my workouts, I'm pretty sedentary, so my TDEE is calculated to 2175-2250. It sounds plausible to me.

For the next two weeks, I plan on eating roughly 2450-2550 calories a day consistently. If correct, this should correspond to anywhere from gains of 0.4-0.6 lbs a week. On the days I happen to do cardio, I'll guesstimate the amount of calories burned and eat them back. For example, I hit my 2450 mark for today, but I did 1.5 miles lightly on the stair machine so I ate 120 calories worth of tuna.

Also to clarify, I'm testing this out for 2 weeks, If I gain more weight than 2 lbs, then I know I'm overeating. At the same time I may need to bump up my surplus if my intensity requires more calories.

How does this sound to you all? I'm giving it my absolute all in the gym. I'm seriously gonna be sore tomorrow in areas I didn't even know I could work out lol.

Also, here are some pictures of my "before" stage at 159.2 lbs. http://imgur.com/nmCq2C6 http://imgur.com/vBjjUVB

Do I have too much body fat to really benefit from a clean bulk? Or am I going to eventually look flabby because I still clearly have some body fat.

Cortelli

The only comment I'll make is that you need to give it more than two weeks. Weight loss is not linear, and you may bounce around quite a bit (and may gain what seems like a *lot* more than expected during the first several weeks, especially if you've been in a deficit for any appreciable amount of time before starting to try and gain.

On second thought, I'll add one other thought - I think you could go for a greater weight gain than what you're targeting. You're lean already, and you're in pretty much prime bulking age. I'd definitely shoot for more myself in your situation (in fact, I did shoot for more and I'm 44 years old). If you have experience losing fat, it is not too worrisome to add a bit more fat than you'd like in a perfect world. I would hate to sacrifice muscle gain because of concern over potential fat gain in your situation - it sounds like you're in a perfect position to add more than average lean mass, and it really only gets harder from your initial gainz! I'd consider shooting for 1 lb per week or even a bit more (but probably 1 lb per week for the first 30 - 45 days and then see how it's going). Some wouldn't with summer just about upon us (in the northern hemisphere, at least), but I think I'd press ahead as a 19 yo at 6'2" and 160. Good luck!

watto1980

I'm no expert but I think you should bulk. I wouldn't focus too much about doing a clean bulk, because you might sabotage your gains if you start changing calorie intakes from fear of getting fat. Usually first few weeks you will gain extra weight and it will then slow down.

I'm almost 15 weeks into my first bulk and mistakes have been made, I have gained about 1lb a week, and some of that is fat but the muscle I have put on has sort of counter-acted against it and I still look pretty good (at least clothed) lol. I have just been making sure I am eating enough to feel big and strong when lifting weights and progressing. I think the hardest part is building the muscle, I have cut fat before so I know what to expect there.

Are you on a good proven weight lifting program with built-in progression? You will want that too. I reckon you will put on some good size on your upper body if you bulk, you look like you have a pretty good base to build on.

white_rushin

The only comment I'll make is that you need to give it more than two weeks. Weight loss is not linear, and you may bounce around quite a bit (and may gain what seems like a *lot* more than expected during the first several weeks, especially if you've been in a deficit for any appreciable amount of time before starting to try and gain.

On second thought, I'll add one other thought - I think you could go for a greater weight gain than what you're targeting. You're lean already, and you're in pretty much prime bulking age. I'd definitely shoot for more myself in your situation (in fact, I did shoot for more and I'm 44 years old). If you have experience losing fat, it is not too worrisome to add a bit more fat than you'd like in a perfect world. I would hate to sacrifice muscle gain because of concern over potential fat gain in your situation - it sounds like you're in a perfect position to add more than average lean mass, and it really only gets harder from your initial gainz! I'd consider shooting for 1 lb per week or even a bit more (but probably 1 lb per week for the first 30 - 45 days and then see how it's going). Some wouldn't with summer just about upon us (in the northern hemisphere, at least), but I think I'd press ahead as a 19 yo at 6'2" and 160. Good luck!

I definitely plan on going more than 2 weeks, I edited my post to clarify that I was going to see where I was at in 2 weeks and either bump up the surplus or maintain. It's funny, you answered one of my questions I thought of asking in addition. Last night I started my surplus and the scale showed a 2 lb increase! Lol I suppose it's just water or body fluctuations.

I may stay where I'm at right now, because in the worst case scenario I won't have maximized my muscle gains for two weeks, in the span of a large bulking period, that's not terrible.

I'm glad you agree that I'm at an ideal point to bulk, my mind goes crazy and tries to convince me that I have too much body fat on me haha. It does suck that I live in So Cal and we're just hitting summer lol.

MrGonzo05

Bulk. Your comments about calories and weight gain make sense, but I think you will find you need to eat more than your initial target. Make sure you are on a decent novice program, because ineffective training combined with a surplus is a recipe for excessive fat gain.

white_rushin

I'm no expert but I think you should bulk. I wouldn't focus too much about doing a clean bulk, because you might sabotage your gains if you start changing calorie intakes from fear of getting fat. Usually first few weeks you will gain extra weight and it will then slow down.

I'm almost 15 weeks into my first bulk and mistakes have been made, I have gained about 1lb a week, and some of that is fat but the muscle I have put on has sort of counter-acted against it and I still look pretty good (at least clothed) lol. I have just been making sure I am eating enough to feel big and strong when lifting weights and progressing. I think the hardest part is building the muscle, I have cut fat before so I know what to expect there.

Are you on a good proven weight lifting program with built-in progression? You will want that too. I reckon you will put on some good size on your upper body if you bulk, you look like you have a pretty good base to build on.

Thanks for the reply. The problem is that I'm really OCD with my image I feel like clean bulking is still a barrier I'm trying to break down. No doubt thought that I definitely am focusing on remaining in a surplus.

I'm doing 5 days a week working out with variations of compound lifts, free weights, and machine work. They're intense sessions with a friend of mine who is absolutely shredded so he's doing something right. Teaching me proper form while still helping me push myself to failure on those important sets.

white_rushin

EDIT: Double Post.

white_rushin

Bulk. Your comments about calories and weight gain make sense, but I think you will find you need to eat more than your initial target. Make sure you are on a decent novice program, because ineffective training combined with a surplus is a recipe for excessive fat gain.

Do you really think that it would be in my best interest to pick a random number like 2800 and just aim for that amount each day? I still don't exactly know my own TDEE which could mean you're right. I just don't see the harm in trying to make precise calculations right now in order to maximize my muscle to fat ratio.

I mentioned in a comment above that I'm working with an experienced partner who is pushing me very hard in a positive way. It's not necessarily a set program, but it incorporates all the major compound lifts with free weights as well.

MarioLozano16

Stick with your original plan, you won't want to get too much fat.
Don't pick a random number; if you aren't gaining weight or gain too much, you can adjust the numbers by small increments until you find an amount that works for you
As for "clean" bulking, you'll be getting all the nutrients you'll need plus you'll feel better if you aren't eating too much junk food

white_rushin

Stick with your original plan, you won't want to get too much fat.
Don't pick a random number; if you aren't gaining weight or gain too much, you can adjust the numbers by small increments until you find an amount that works for you
As for "clean" bulking, you'll be getting all the nutrients you'll need plus you'll feel better if you aren't eating too much junk food

Thanks for the reply. Awesome. That's what I figured as well.

My macros split look to be around 270gcarbs/180-190g protein/ 60 g fat. Lots of chicken, tuna, greek yogurt, eggs, turkey bacon, oatmeal, almond milk, fruit, carrots, PB2, skippy, protein shakes, quest bars, and anything else I can fit. I'll be buying more whole grains as well. Brown rice, quinoa, etc. I use cereal sometimes to hit my carb #'s.

Cortelli

I would do more the more I think about it. Seriously, I am 44, used to lift about 5 years ago, but only regularly for about 18 months. I started lifting again almost a year ago after I got fat (through good livin'!) -- but starting again coincided with eating at a deficit to lose the blobs of fat I had put on over the course of 3 - 4 years (again, of good livin'!). So all my lifting for last year was while in a deficit -- I was lifting to preserve mass not add it. I made significant strength gains, and actually put on a tiny little bit of mass in certain areas I think (newbie or returning lifter exceptions, I don't know, but I am convinced I put on a very tiny amount of muscle and lost very little overall). I also was focusing more upper body stuff ("oh noes, skipping leg day!") because I was also doing some real cardio efforts on non-lifting days and just worried I'd be pushing my lower body too much to be pressing for PRs in squats etc. That was a mistake, but, hell, we all make mistakes.

Anyway - I am 44 and after a month of conscious "maintenance" in December, back to deficit in the new year and getting down to around 155 lbs at 5'9" I went to maintenance for a few weeks and then moved pretty rapidly to a 500 - 750 cal weekly surplus in March. I put on a lot more weight than expected very early on; my weight then leveled off and even declined, despite slightly upping calories prior to / during the decline to address my higher weight (and because I was enjoying eating all the foodz!). I also was religious about a serious lifting program targeting at hypertrophy with concentration on compound lifts with a lot more lower body work and a more balanced upper body program. Long story short, like Watto1980, I put on weight more quickly overall than expected, but also look a fair bit better at my current weight than I did at this weight on my way down while in a deficit. I've still got visible abs at my current weight and I had only the faintest hint of them on the way down. And hydro and a DEXA scan have reassured me that my expectations around losing (and preserving lean mass) and bulking (without it all being fat) were not out of line. At 19 yo and 6'2" 160 I think you've got a lot of room to really add lean mass without screwing yourself over on fat gains -- everyone is different, but I would personally rather push the envelope on mass gains at your age than on minimizing fat gains.

Stick with your original plan, you won't want to get too much fat.
Don't pick a random number; if you aren't gaining weight or gain too much, you can adjust the numbers by small increments until you find an amount that works for you
As for "clean" bulking, you'll be getting all the nutrients you'll need plus you'll feel better if you aren't eating too much junk food

"Clean" bulk doesn't refer to one's foods in the diet -- unlike "eating clean" a "clean bulk" usually refers to eating at a small surplus - whatever types of foods you choose to eat to hit your macros; a "dirty" bulk is a greater calorie surplus but might consist of the same types of foods a "clean" bulker is eating. It is not really akin to "clean eating" that gets thrown around.

chrisdavey

Looks like a solid plan mate.

Re training, as long as there is progressive overload then you are on a good program.

MrGonzo05

Bulk. Your comments about calories and weight gain make sense, but I think you will find you need to eat more than your initial target. Make sure you are on a decent novice program, because ineffective training combined with a surplus is a recipe for excessive fat gain.

Do you really think that it would be in my best interest to pick a random number like 2800 and just aim for that amount each day? I still don't exactly know my own TDEE which could mean you're right. I just don't see the harm in trying to make precise calculations right now in order to maximize my muscle to fat ratio.

I mentioned in a comment above that I'm working with an experienced partner who is pushing me very hard in a positive way. It's not necessarily a set program, but it incorporates all the major compound lifts with free weights as well.

Sounds good.

steve0820

As everyone mentioned, you're on the right track, just give yourself more time then 2 weeks. As far as clean and dirty bulk, has more to do with how much over maintenance you're planning on going.

Don't be afraid to up the cals and to gain a little fat, it's gonna happen. If you put yourself in the mind set now, it will be easier, trust me. During my last bulk, I had to up the cals 3 times before the scales really moved.

At 5"9, 32yo, 172# at the time, I needed between 3200-3500 cals a day

DopeItUp

I'm 19 years old, 6'2" male that weighs 160 lbs. I determined that outside of my workouts, I'm pretty sedentary, so my TDEE is calculated to 2175-2250. It sounds plausible to me.

For the next two weeks, I plan on eating roughly 2450-2550 calories a day consistently. If correct, this should correspond to anywhere from gains of 0.4-0.6 lbs a week. On the days I happen to do cardio, I'll guesstimate the amount of calories burned and eat them back. For example, I hit my 2450 mark for today, but I did 1.5 miles lightly on the stair machine so I ate 120 calories worth of tuna.

Also to clarify, I'm testing this out for 2 weeks, If I gain more weight than 2 lbs, then I know I'm overeating. At the same time I may need to bump up my surplus if my intensity requires more calories.

How does this sound to you all? I'm giving it my absolute all in the gym. I'm seriously gonna be sore tomorrow in areas I didn't even know I could work out lol.

Also, here are some pictures of my "before" stage at 159.2 lbs. http://imgur.com/nmCq2C6 http://imgur.com/vBjjUVB

Do I have too much body fat to really benefit from a clean bulk? Or am I going to eventually look flabby because I still clearly have some body fat.

2 weeks, IMO, is way, way too short. An increase of calories and an increase of intensity will result in water retention which is likely to meet or exceed your 2lb benchmark in the first week. You need a longer time frame to get a better picture. For example, my first week of my bulk I gained 7lbs. By the end of the month I wasn't gaining anything and had to up my calories (twice!).

My suggestion would be simply to walk your calories up slowly. Add 100 this week, 100 next week, 100 the third week. Sit there for a month and then re-assess and add or subtract 100 depending on gains. Go slow.

Your BF% is fine. Probably ~12%. 6'2" and 160lbs is really light. I think you will benefit greatly from a bulk or three.

Edit: I didn't realize there were more replies, I think I'm just duplicating thoughts at this point

waldo56

I'm 19 years old, 6'2" male that weighs 160 lbs. I determined that outside of my workouts, I'm pretty sedentary, so my TDEE is calculated to 2175-2250. It sounds plausible to me.

For the next two weeks, I plan on eating roughly 2450-2550 calories a day consistently. If correct, this should correspond to anywhere from gains of 0.4-0.6 lbs a week. On the days I happen to do cardio, I'll guesstimate the amount of calories burned and eat them back. For example, I hit my 2450 mark for today, but I did 1.5 miles lightly on the stair machine so I ate 120 calories worth of tuna.

Also to clarify, I'm testing this out for 2 weeks, If I gain more weight than 2 lbs, then I know I'm overeating. At the same time I may need to bump up my surplus if my intensity requires more calories.

How does this sound to you all? I'm giving it my absolute all in the gym. I'm seriously gonna be sore tomorrow in areas I didn't even know I could work out lol.

Also, here are some pictures of my "before" stage at 159.2 lbs. http://imgur.com/nmCq2C6 http://imgur.com/vBjjUVB

Do I have too much body fat to really benefit from a clean bulk? Or am I going to eventually look flabby because I still clearly have some body fat.

Beginners should ditch the "clean bulk" concept entirely. You don't know your cal needs precisely enough to run a small surplus.

Most people underestimate the amount of calories needed to gain. For a number of reasons; dramatically underestimating strength training cals, a natural instinct to estimate "safe", and an natural increase in NEAT by the body to "burn off" extra cals. Have you taken this into account? This can be several hundred cals of error.

6'2", 160 lbs male, doing some cardio, I suspect you will not gain anything unless you are eating 3K+.

Most people will gain weight really fast at the start of a bulk (filling glycogen and whatnot). The scale is utterly worthless for the first month of a bulk. The scale also moves in up and down waves. Your test period should be widened to 4 weeks minimum, 8 weeks preferably.

I aim for a 400 cal surplus now (~3900 cals @ 6'1 205 35 yr old)(almost finished with my 5th bulk, the more experienced you get the stupider (and more difficult) lean bulking seems), aimed for 500 cal my first 2. Muscle grows a lot slower than grass. The fat gain is just as slow, barely perceptable. Don't worry about the fat gain, cutting is far easier than bulking, especially when you just finished a bulk.

I've been doing this quite a while and diligently tracking details apon details, my maintenence level is a moving target that jumps around by a couple hundred cals (plus maintenence will widen to engulf a tiny surplus if you get too close). Trying to maintain a 250 cal surplus seems downright impossible to me, downright laughable for a beginner to really pull it off.

And here's the thing; it isn't actually any cleaner. The body gains muscle:fat at a fairly fixed ratio from low deficits on up to a point where the efficiency dramatically declines. The reason is simple. When the body is in a surplus you are gaining at that ratio. At smaller surpluses you start to see the local effects from meals; part of the day you are gaining, part of the day you are maintaining (which has no positive benefit to you). Once your surplus is sufficient that you are gaining 24/7 and the local effects of meals vanishes, that is when the efficiency starts to decline at higher intakes. In other words, you will gain just as efficiently at +400 as you will at +200, but twice as fast. And it'll be a lot easier with more room for error.

JoRocka

2200 + 400 on a bulk is only 2400.. for someone taller than me and of the male variety- you are going to be needing to eat WAY more than that.

That's what I was eating.

MOAR.

moar foods.

Waldo is right- it's really easy to under estimate yourself- and not only that it's easy to not realize that after a few weeks- you need to bump again- you get bigger- are lifting more- and your requirement for needing to eat more goes up as well.

Eat all the things- lift all the things.

see the gainz.

get over the idea of not having your body while you're bulking- you're going to feel fat.
You're going to feel gross- you're going to hate fitted clothes.

Get over it.

Bulking requires commitment and mental fortitude and confidence to trust the science and the math.

Waldo is the man about this stuff- trust him- he knows almost everything.
seriously.

sarahstrezo

2200 + 400 on a bulk is only 2400.. for someone taller than me and of the male variety- you are going to be needing to eat WAY more than that.

That's what I was eating.

MOAR.

moar foods.

Waldo is right- it's really easy to under estimate yourself- and not only that it's easy to not realize that after a few weeks- you need to bump again- you get bigger- are lifting more- and your requirement for needing to eat more goes up as well.

Eat all the things- lift all the things.

see the gainz.

get over the idea of not having your body while you're bulking- you're going to feel fat.
You're going to feel gross- you're going to hate fitted clothes.

Get over it.

Bulking requires commitment and mental fortitude and confidence to trust the science and the math.

Waldo is the man about this stuff- trust him- he knows almost everything.
seriously.

Yes to this.

I'm a 33 year old female who is 5'5" and 133 lbs. I cut at 2100 cals and I do no cardio (I lift 4 days a week). I bulked last fall/winter and had to up to 2900-3000 to continually see my .5 lb/week gain. And.. yes, the cut after a bulk is not bad. Your metabolism is rocking and you'll likely cut at a higher amount than you are eating now.

You are a 19 year old guy……put all that crazy testosterone to good use and BULK!!!!

white_rushin

Beginners should ditch the "clean bulk" concept entirely. You don't know your cal needs precisely enough to run a small surplus.

Most people underestimate the amount of calories needed to gain. For a number of reasons; dramatically underestimating strength training cals, a natural instinct to estimate "safe", and an natural increase in NEAT by the body to "burn off" extra cals. Have you taken this into account? This can be several hundred cals of error.

6'2", 160 lbs male, doing some cardio, I suspect you will not gain anything unless you are eating 3K+.

Most people will gain weight really fast at the start of a bulk (filling glycogen and whatnot). The scale is utterly worthless for the first month of a bulk. The scale also moves in up and down waves. Your test period should be widened to 4 weeks minimum, 8 weeks preferably.

I aim for a 400 cal surplus now (~3900 cals @ 6'1 205 35 yr old)(almost finished with my 5th bulk, the more experienced you get the stupider (and more difficult) lean bulking seems), aimed for 500 cal my first 2. Muscle grows a lot slower than grass. The fat gain is just as slow, barely perceptable. Don't worry about the fat gain, cutting is far easier than bulking, especially when you just finished a bulk.

I've been doing this quite a while and diligently tracking details apon details, my maintenence level is a moving target that jumps around by a couple hundred cals (plus maintenence will widen to engulf a tiny surplus if you get too close). Trying to maintain a 250 cal surplus seems downright impossible to me, downright laughable for a beginner to really pull it off.

And here's the thing; it isn't actually any cleaner. The body gains muscle:fat at a fairly fixed ratio from low deficits on up to a point where the efficiency dramatically declines. The reason is simple. When the body is in a surplus you are gaining at that ratio. At smaller surpluses you start to see the local effects from meals; part of the day you are gaining, part of the day you are maintaining (which has no positive benefit to you). Once your surplus is sufficient that you are gaining 24/7 and the local effects of meals vanishes, that is when the efficiency starts to decline at higher intakes. In other words, you will gain just as efficiently at +400 as you will at +200, but twice as fast. And it'll be a lot easier with more room for error.

You're absolutely correct man. I've had a lot of doubts since so much of this is new to me. I have no clue whatsoever what my true TDEE would be. I would be cutting out cardio for now. Unless you recommend keeping it in my weekly exercise. Do you think for now, 2850 cals would be a good number daily to shoot for?

white_rushin

Thank you all for the extensive amount of advice you've given. I've surmised that my original plan was definitely undershooting my necessary goals for putting on muscle.

Its still daunting to decide to go all out and eat more than I'm comfortable with, but I will remain persistent and eat 2800-3000 calories/day for at least a month while remaining intense in the gym.

From there I will decide and more than likely need to pump my numbers up in order to adequately nourish my growing body. I'm glad you all think that its at least a good point in time and I'm the right frame to really start this bulk.

JoRocka

Thank you all for the extensive amount of advice you've given. I've surmised that my original plan was definitely undershooting my necessary goals for putting on muscle.

Its still daunting to decide to go all out and eat more than I'm comfortable with, but I will remain persistent and eat 2800-3000 calories/day for at least a month while remaining intense in the gym.

From there I will decide and more than likely need to pump my numbers up in order to adequately nourish my growing body. I'm glad you all think that its at least a good point in time and I'm the right frame to really start this bulk.

sounds like a plan. go for it- and just committ- it's REALLY easy to short yourself- so just really commit to eat and drinking everything (yes it can be expensive) oreos- ice cream- candy bars- cereal on sale- bagels- whatever is on sale- pasta- all great things to eat when you need the extra calories.

What you eat is way less important at this point than how much you eat. Macros are nice to lob a ball at and hope for the best- but they aren't going to do you any good if you are not eating enough.