Gym + Running = Overtraining?

sati18

Hi Guys,

I dont really think i can be overtraining but I'm getting a bit frustrated at the moment. I've been running for about a year and a half, usually twice a week and usually around 3-5 miles per run. I was previously doing some workout dvds on days where i wasnt running, depending on whether i felt like it or not. However, i've joined a Gym with my partner and we're going twice a week, doing about 40 mins cardio and 20 mins on the weights machines. Anyway, this seems to be really impacting my running. I'm now only trying to get one extra run in (as i also run on the treadmill when in the gym) but i want to make it a good one because i worked hard to get up to 5 miles and i dont want to lose it.

I'm finding though that my legs are so tired, maybe from the strength machines, that I'm having to stop after a couple of miles. I'm usually pretty good at pushing through stuff but today i just couldn't and it's been hard the last few weeks.

Any advice? I love the calorie burn i get down the gym, and i want to do the strength too but i dont want to sacrifice the work i put into running for last year?

MeanderingMammal

Might depend on how you're scheduling or the type of resistance training that you do. As running is your priority then your leg work needs to complement that.

I'd suggest not using the dreadmill in the gym, focus on the resistance work, but maybe add a third real world run in. Or use something else for your indoor CV; rowing machine is good.

jenilla1

I personally only do cardio on my run days. At the gym I do a very brief warmup, but then it's all weights. I find I perform better at both weights and running this way.

GeorgiesTraining

Hmm, this is definitely a common problem for many.

My two cents, prioritise either one exercise method (cardio or resistance training) OR use resistance training to benefit your cardio. For example, use non-sport specific resistance exercises to benefit your body's functional capacity.
Things like:
Core development
Deadlifts
Lunges
Rows
Integrated Cable movements

For the former option, cardio and resistance training offer distinct benefits. If your goal is to maintain your cardio capacity then let that be your prioritised exercise. But often the two don't compliment each other in close proximity unless you switch up the parameters (anaerobic cardio for example, kettlebells or HIIT.)

If you wanted to pursue running and strength training however I'd recommend these two things, ensure calories are sufficient, and switch the ratios of time spent. On a ratio of resistance:cardio I'd aim for 80:20.

You're definitely not over training, but rather gunning for goals they conflict with each other. It can be done but requires smart and deliberate actions. Hope you can pull something out of my ramble, happy lifting (Y)

whitebalance

I keep my cardio and strength separate, except I'm experimenting with doing both on one day a week. Last fall I got my running distance up to 5-6 miles. But for me, an infrequent runner, the DOMS from running is so bad that it throws off the rest of my workout schedule... So I've put running on hold for a while.

In your case, since running is a priority, if I were you I'd give some thought to reducing the time on cardio in the gym and emphasizing that real-world run. I've read from harder-core runners that treadmill and outdoor running are very different, so that's something to consider too. Maybe the treadmill isn't great training for the kind of running you normally do.

sati18

Hi All, firstly thank you all for such very quick and helpful replies! I'm happy to tweak my gym workouts if you think that would solve the problem - one thing I did want to add though is that I'm reasonably positive it isn't the cardio in the gym thats the problem... purely because I had no problems when i was running twice a week + cycling occasionally or running twice a week and doing a circuit training session as well... I feel like it's got to be the resistance machines maybe - if thats possible

Here's my current routine - if you have suggestions on how i could switch it around I'll absolutely try them, even if you disagree with the above point and tell me it's the cardio :P

Monday - Gym
Cardio:
5 mins rowing machine
15 mins cycling (stationary bike)
20 mins running, treadmill @ around 6 mph
possibly another 5 mins rowing or 5 mins on the crosstrainer (hate that thing)

Resistance:
Overhead press machine 3 sets of 15 reps (whatever weight i feel my arms can take)
Chest press maching 3 sets of 15 reps (whatever weight i feel my arms can take)
Leg lift machine 3 sets of 15 reps
Squat machine (can't remember the name of it) again 3 sets of 15 reps

Tuesday or Wednesday
Run, outdoors 3-5 miles, as much as i can do (relaxed pace)

Thursday - same gym routine as monday

My gym is tiny so they don't have many machines, there is a dumbell rack too but thats about it. The stupid thing is I'm only doing the leg machines to try and strengthen my knees for the running as I do get some knee pain every now and then and I thought squats would help!

I wonder if maybe getting the run in on Monday and swapping the gym to Tuesday might help - what do you think?

sati18

To those who said about only doing weights at the gym, tbh with how limited my gym is I'd struggle to do a decent workout just on the weights machines. I'd be wasting my money going there... I'm trying to support the OH and get him going with it too - i feel like if i stopped the gym (nevermind that i enjoy it) he'd probably stop too - so there's other reasons why i want to continue with the gym as well if possible.

GeorgiesTrain - thanks for the very in depth ramble. I must admit i'm going to have to google those exercises on my lunch rbeach because i havent a clue what most of them are!

GillianMcK

If you wanted to pursue running and strength training however I'd recommend these two things, ensure calories are sufficient, and switch the ratios of time spent. On a ratio of resistance:cardio I'd aim for 80:20.

You're definitely not over training, but rather gunning for goals they conflict with each other. It can be done but requires smart and deliberate actions. Hope you can pull something out of my ramble, happy lifting (Y)

This, are you eating enough to fuel the strength and cardio??

I run 4 times a week (marathon training so my long ru has gone up as far as 20miles) and normally do weights twice a week, there's only 1 day where my running and weights are on the same day and I do the running first, then the weights.
One of my weights sessions is within my PT so we do focus on legs to help the running muscles, deadlifts, clean & press, squats, all help with my leg muscles that then help with the running, I did struggle at the beginning with my run the day after weights but learned to cope with it as I got stronger.

MeanderingMammal

Monday - Gym
Cardio:
5 mins rowing machine
15 mins cycling (stationary bike)
20 mins running, treadmill @ around 6 mph
possibly another 5 mins rowing or 5 mins on the crosstrainer (hate that thing)

Resistance:
Overhead press machine 3 sets of 15 reps (whatever weight i feel my arms can take)
Chest press maching 3 sets of 15 reps (whatever weight i feel my arms can take)
Leg lift machine 3 sets of 15 reps
Squat machine (can't remember the name of it) again 3 sets of 15 reps

OK, all of that CV work before the resistance means you're not getting the effect from the resistance work.

My focus is on running, I'm currently on a half marathon plan so I'm running four times per week, doing one other CV session and two resistance sessions. That broadly means:

Sunday - Long slow run of up to about 15 miles, subject to where I am in the plan
Monday - Moderate distance recovery pace run of up to between 5 and 7 miles followed by bodyweight resistance training
Tuesday - Tempo run, duration of up to 90 minutes subject to whee I am in the plan possibly followed by bodyweight resistance subject to cumulative distance
Wednesday - Cycle or row
Thursday - rest day, sometimes I cycle
Friday - Recovery pace run of between 5 and 7 miles
Saturday - Cycle or row, bodyweight resistance session

I reconise what you're saying about motivating effect of the gym, but I'd echo the point about using free weights rather than machines for your resistance session, if at all possible.

You're certainly not overtraining, but I'd agree with the points about food consumption perhaps being low.

sati18

@ GillianMcK

Usually i eat back my exercise calories and then some (previously had a tendency to be over every day) - but this last week I've been really cutting back on eating junk (during the week) because I'm off to Spain at the end of next week to visit my nan and i'm a full 10lbs heavier than the last time i went. She's the sort who'll feel the need to comment :S

However, I do usually more than make up for any calorie deficits gained during the week, at the weekend (which explained the 10lb weight gain) so I think at the moment i'm coming in just about where MFP says i should. I'm pretty much maintaining within a 5lb range so i certainly wouldn't want to eat more overall. Ideally I'd like to maintain at where i am

Apologies for being a bit vague - I'm recovering from bulimia so gaining weight is a massive fear for me. I've used MFP basically to relearn how to eat again and the exercise helps me hugely because it gives me more calories and makes me reconnect with how a body should feel. I love feeling strong and fit and having energy which i never had before

sati18

I reconise what you're saying about motivating effect of the gym, but I'd echo the point about using free weights rather than machines for your resistance session, if at all possible.

You're certainly not overtraining, but I'd agree with the points about food consumption perhaps being low.

OK so use the dumbells rather than the machines? No problem i like the dumbells fine and they have things like medicine balls and kettlebells if that would be better?

What is bodyweight resistance training?

_Terrapin_

Hi All, firstly thank you all for such very quick and helpful replies! I'm happy to tweak my gym workouts if you think that would solve the problem - one thing I did want to add though is that I'm reasonably positive it isn't the cardio in the gym thats the problem... purely because I had no problems when i was running twice a week + cycling occasionally or running twice a week and doing a circuit training session as well... I feel like it's got to be the resistance machines maybe - if thats possible

Here's my current routine - if you have suggestions on how i could switch it around I'll absolutely try them, even if you disagree with the above point and tell me it's the cardio :P

Monday - Gym
Cardio:
5 mins rowing machine
15 mins cycling (stationary bike)
20 mins running, treadmill @ around 6 mph
possibly another 5 mins rowing or 5 mins on the crosstrainer (hate that thing)

Resistance:
Overhead press machine 3 sets of 15 reps (whatever weight i feel my arms can take)
Chest press maching 3 sets of 15 reps (whatever weight i feel my arms can take)
Leg lift machine 3 sets of 15 reps
Squat machine (can't remember the name of it) again 3 sets of 15 reps

Tuesday or Wednesday
Run, outdoors 3-5 miles, as much as i can do (relaxed pace)

Thursday - same gym routine as monday

My gym is tiny so they don't have many machines, there is a dumbell rack too but thats about it. The stupid thing is I'm only doing the leg machines to try and strengthen my knees for the running as I do get some knee pain every now and then and I thought squats would help!

I wonder if maybe getting the run in on Monday and swapping the gym to Tuesday might help - what do you think?

Swapping would help, and it would be of benefit to know you ought to increase your long weekly run by 10% per week. If you are running outdoors 1 to 2 days a week and doing the above workouts you may want to consider adding a run day, even if it is short, and prior to the other person showing up at the gym(maybe modify the cardio on one of your gym days to accomplish this)

MeanderingMammal

OK so use the dumbells rather than the machines? No problem i like the dumbells fine and they have things like medicine balls and kettlebells if that would be better?

What is bodyweight resistance training?

If you're using machines you're isolating the muscle that you're exercising, so you end up having to do more work to exercise the whole system. You'll get far more benefit from whole body exercises that work a range of movements, and as a runner really work your core strength.

Deadlifts, Squats, Chest press, Rows etc. Dumbells will be fine, you'll probably find that you outgrow them so more to a barbell later.

Bodyweight is just using the weight of your body to provide the resistance; press ups, planks, mountain climbers, chin ups etc. Personally I use some of the exercises in You Are Your Own Gym so give myself some challenges. From the perspective of running I can do all of them outdoors, so can buld them into a run. Go 5-6km to the park, do a session, then run home.

contingencyplan

Those machines you're using are meant only to be a supplement to free weights, not replace them. You should be using free weights. Much better workout in less time. Running performance will suffer somewhat if you try to get a run in before your muscles have fully recovered from the gym workouts because muscles in a state of recovery simply aren't capable of producing as much work as when they're fresh.

MeanderingMammal

Also - http://www.parkrun.org.uk/southsea/

You might find parkrun builds neatly into your training.

LKArgh

What you describe is mostly still cardion in the gym, with a few exercises for strength training. Separate your routines: Like some days running like you used to, then some days a full body workout at the gym, preferably barbells or dumbells. And if you have knee issues, forget the leg training machine, it will make the problems worse.

SunofaBeach14

You are not overtraining. You've added a bit of work to your routine and you need to just give your body time to adapt.

Mariachicat

I've upped my running to 3-6 miles every night (about 60-70 min for me) plus 45-60 minutes of the Jillian Michaels "No More Trouble Zones" workout. Then I try to do a Yoga For Runners 25 minute program. The NMTZ workout does planks, crunches, some mat/leg work, and uses dumbbells. I feel like I'm making progress with this workout. I could do it in a more moderate way but I'm trying to get to my goal weight in 2-3 months. When I reach my GW, I might do this every other day instead of every day, or 3-4x/week. I've noticed that even though I like to get the NMTZ workout over with first so that I can enjoy the runs more, the workouts feel more effective when I do the running first. I think that's because it warms the body up so that it can do the muscle work more effectively. Also, adding the Yoga For Runners program really helped my body recover and not shorten and tighten from all the sudden running. Hope this helps.

sati18

Also - http://www.parkrun.org.uk/southsea/

You might find parkrun builds neatly into your training.

Just checked the website - thank you that looks awesome I will most definitely sign up and give it a bash!

sati18

I've upped my running to 3-6 miles every night (about 60-70 min for me) plus 45-60 minutes of the Jillian Michaels "No More Trouble Zones" workout. Then I try to do a Yoga For Runners 25 minute program. The NMTZ workout does planks, crunches, some mat/leg work, and uses dumbbells. I feel like I'm making progress with this workout. I could do it in a more moderate way but I'm trying to get to my goal weight in 2-3 months. When I reach my GW, I might do this every other day instead of every day, or 3-4x/week. I've noticed that even though I like to get the NMTZ workout over with first so that I can enjoy the runs more, the workouts feel more effective when I do the running first. I think that's because it warms the body up so that it can do the muscle work more effectively. Also, adding the Yoga For Runners program really helped my body recover and not shorten and tighten from all the sudden running. Hope this helps.

wow that is an incredible amount of exercise - amazing! I'm pretty sure no matter what i'll never be able to do that much but i will definitely look at the yoga for runners then if it helps

sati18

You are not overtraining. You've added a bit of work to your routine and you need to just give your body time to adapt.

I was hoping someone would say that


I'll try swapping the days round so i'm not running in between my gym days and do free weights instead of the machines and see if that helps make it a little easier too

scot34

From experience, exccessive running and doing leg work at the gym will butcher your knees, of course depending how old you are. I used to run marathons and do huge leg workouts. With time, It caught up with me. I had to chose. So i ditched the leg workouts (no more squats for me) and i kept my running intensity usually 3-5 times a week. And i do shoulder, chest and back weight training with focus on compound movments that will eventually will get your legs involved (eg. Dead lifts etc.)

KseRz

Hi All, firstly thank you all for such very quick and helpful replies! I'm happy to tweak my gym workouts if you think that would solve the problem - one thing I did want to add though is that I'm reasonably positive it isn't the cardio in the gym thats the problem... purely because I had no problems when i was running twice a week + cycling occasionally or running twice a week and doing a circuit training session as well... I feel like it's got to be the resistance machines maybe - if thats possible

Here's my current routine - if you have suggestions on how i could switch it around I'll absolutely try them, even if you disagree with the above point and tell me it's the cardio :P

Monday - Gym
Cardio:
5 mins rowing machine
15 mins cycling (stationary bike)
20 mins running, treadmill @ around 6 mph
possibly another 5 mins rowing or 5 mins on the crosstrainer (hate that thing)

Resistance:
Overhead press machine 3 sets of 15 reps (whatever weight i feel my arms can take)
Chest press maching 3 sets of 15 reps (whatever weight i feel my arms can take)
Leg lift machine 3 sets of 15 reps
Squat machine (can't remember the name of it) again 3 sets of 15 reps

Tuesday or Wednesday
Run, outdoors 3-5 miles, as much as i can do (relaxed pace)

Thursday - same gym routine as monday

My gym is tiny so they don't have many machines, there is a dumbell rack too but thats about it. The stupid thing is I'm only doing the leg machines to try and strengthen my knees for the running as I do get some knee pain every now and then and I thought squats would help!

I wonder if maybe getting the run in on Monday and swapping the gym to Tuesday might help - what do you think?

Ive highlighted what I think is your problem in bold. At first you said you ran 2x a week about 3-5 miles each and did that for a lonnnnnnnnng time. Your body adapts and gets used to this over time. By the routine you provided (and thank you for that), you seem to be quadrupling the activity that your legs are used to. While this specific routine and the number of miles you are running per week might not be classified as overtraining per se, you are definitely putting your legs through something it hasnt been put through before. So if it were me, for now I would do some other form of cardio training that isnt running or as taxing on the legs as running. Maybe more time on the rowing machine focusing on the upper body?. This is just an example as you can pick other exercises, but perhaps 10 minutes of jumping rope intensly followed by 10 minutes of burpees?

sati18

Ive highlighted what I think is your problem in bold. At first you said you ran 2x a week about 3-5 miles each and did that for a lonnnnnnnnng time. Your body adapts and gets used to this over time. By the routine you provided (and thank you for that), you seem to be quadrupling the activity that your legs are used to. While this specific routine and the number of miles you are running per week might not be classified as overtraining per se, you are definitely putting your legs through something it hasnt been put through before. So if it were me, for now I would do some other form of cardio training that isnt running or as taxing on the legs as running. Maybe more time on the rowing machine focusing on the upper body?. This is just an example as you can pick other exercises, but perhaps 10 minutes of jumping rope intensly followed by 10 minutes of burpees?

Thank you - i didn't really consider it that much more, but then i guess if you look at it specifically as the amount of leg work then you're right. The other exercise that i used to do (circuit training classes, 30 day shred etc) to supplement the running was a lot more general.

I'll definitely dial back the treadmill and try replacing that with rowing, and avoid using the leg machines then as i really dont want to shred my knees :S

a_stronger_me13

You are not overtraining. You've added a bit of work to your routine and you need to just give your body time to adapt.

This. People really don't understand what's meant by overtraining. We wouldn't have professional athletes if this was considered overtraining, we'd all be pretty much average Joes.

I also really disagree with avoiding leg work because you are running. Unless you are sprinting or doing interval training, your running is not considered resistance training and the strength in your legs isn't going to improve. Considering your legs power your runs, I'd think that you'd want them to be pretty strong.

Get on a basic compound lift program to work in with your running program, understand there's going to be a bit of growing pains in the first few weeks as you adjust to the increase in workload and I bet you will be pleasantly surprised with how strength training your upper AND lower body improves your running.

ETA: The fatigue and lack of recovery is probably diet related. What are your calories and protein goals like?

JoRocka

Definitely not over training.

It's just not enough work honestly. I lift 3 - 4 times a week and I'm in dance class 3 times a week for 2-4 hours on top of that. And occasionally I do cardio- I'm still fine. and functional.

BUT- you need to make sure you are resting. eating. sleeping.

so enough food
enough sleep
and enough days off.

Secondly- why WHY so much cardio? You're already running 2 x a week- why are you going to the gym to do more cardio???

Strong lifts
starting strength
New rules of lifting
strong curves

compound lifts like squats dead lifts bench and over head press.

doing leg work will only make you a better runner.
you will not get bulky- I promise.

I'll definitely dial back the treadmill and try replacing that with rowing, and avoid using the leg machines then as i really dont want to shred my knees :S

sigh
just give up the cardio machines at the gym- seriously- it's more than you need unless you are training for an event.
secondly- odds are you are probably doing more repetitive wear with all the running than actually using your knees for what they were designed for- which is bending so you can squat down.

squat.
dead lift
these things are gods gift to you for being fabulous.

MeanderingMammal

I'll definitely dial back the treadmill and try replacing that with rowing, and avoid using the leg machines then as i really dont want to shred my knees :S

Resistance training on your legs will not damage your knees, it'll help build the fine control around the knees and ankles that help avoid injury when you're running.

Leg work also helps to develop explosive power that helps your running.

In part running doesn't lead to balance in the legs, you need to do some complementary work to strengthen the glutes and quads.

spicegeek

If you just added 2 -3 days of training per week you are not over training per say - but maybe you added too much to fast - I recently ramped up my schedule and added 2 hour training session plus a 15 mins extra workout on a weekend - my 5 mile run went out the window - it went to 3 miles or sometime no miles depending on how I feel - I am slowly working it back in - and actually got a 4 mile run in for the first time in a while. my advice - do you longer run on your cardio day instead of jumping about on the other machines.

Make sure you are well hydrated in general - this always screws me up and will make you feel tired

sati18

Lots of different viewpoints and thanks everyone for taking the time to reply. You've given me lots to think about.

For those who asked about diet though I did already state why I am unwilling to have that reviewed. Whilst I genuinely appreciate that may impact on the amount of help you can offer, I hope you'll understand that I have good reasons for not wanting to share that information and have it critiqued. Ultimately I've found a way of eating that's helping me to maintain a healthy weight after years of disordered eating, and if it turns out that I can't maintain my training schedule around that eating. Then it's the training that will have to be cut back. I can't risk a relapse by mucking about with my food too much at the moment. It's too important

I will however test out the suggestions in terms of tweaking the workouts and see if they help. Hopefully they will.

Thank you again

sati18

Secondly- why WHY so much cardio? You're already running 2 x a week- why are you going to the gym to do more cardio???

Because i enjoy it and I wasn't really thinking about anything other than getting a bit more active and enjoying exercise, plus encouraging my other half to go to the gym with me.

I'm surprised though that you think Its a lot of cardio based on the fact that you do Dance class 3 times a week for 2-4 hours

my total cardio time per week is about 140 minutes so less than three hours total?

NRBreit

I strength train 3-4 days per week. I run 3.5 miles 1 or 2 times per week during the summer in addition to the strength training. The only thing I've found is that I can't effectively do squats or deadlifts the day after my run. It's too hard on my knees.