Getting muscular without adding calories

jmangini

So I was involved in a recent discussion where everyone said you can't get muscular unless you add calories, so I thought I'd throw it out to the community to get your thoughts. Here are some questions.

1. If I am overweight, untrained and really have no muscularity and I currently eat 4000 calories a day, if I cut my calories to 3000 a day and weight train hard, it is impossible for me to gain muscle?

2 If I am a 180 pound man, and keep around my normal calories or even slightly under my calories and I train hard, it is impossible for me to gain any new muscle?

I'm really curious about this topic and looking forward to the responses from those of you who are knowledgeable on this topic. When I pointed out that I had lost weight and built muscle, I was told the muscle I had just showed more as I lost weight. The thing is, I didn't really have any muscle. And if that's true, how did I go from a 36" waist to a 32" while adding more than an inch to my arms? How did my pants get loose, while my shirts got tighter in the chest and arms?

Looking forward to your comments.

MireyGal76

I'm not an expert by far... but here is what I've learned.

- You cannot gain additional muscle while on a calorie deficit.

- BUT you can gain strength in your existing muscles. (How? I don't know. It's magic - ask SideSteel).

- The appearance of size gain when first starting a weight program is often due to water retention as your muscles repair themselves, but that gain is not preserved.

- The appearance of muscle gain is also an illusion that comes from losing fat that surrounds the muscles, thereby revealing striations and musculature that wasn't previously visible.

Eg... I had abs when I was overweight. You can even kind of see them. I was active, worked hard, and was strong. As I lost weight, the fat cells that covered the abs like a blanket shrank and began to reveal the abs that were always there.
I didn't "get a 6 pack"... I just uncovered it.


Also.. it looks like my biceps got HOOOOGE... when in reality, the size of them is the same as before.... but now the fat is gone and I LOOK bigger.

erialcelyob

I'm eating less food and losing weight but my biceps are definitely bigger

erialcelyob

FEEL (I can't see them yet)

DivineChoices

I'm not an expert by far... but here is what I've learned.

- You cannot gain additional muscle while on a calorie deficit.

- BUT you can gain strength in your existing muscles. (How? I don't know. It's magic - ask SideSteel).

- The appearance of size gain when first starting a weight program is often due to water retention as your muscles repair themselves, but that gain is not preserved.

- The appearance of muscle gain is also an illusion that comes from losing fat that surrounds the muscles, thereby revealing striations and musculature that wasn't previously visible.

Eg... I had abs when I was overweight. You can even kind of see them. I was active, worked hard, and was strong. As I lost weight, the fat cells that covered the abs like a blanket shrank and began to reveal the abs that were always there.
I didn't "get a 6 pack"... I just uncovered it.


Also.. it looks like my biceps got HOOOOGE... when in reality, the size of them is the same as before.... but now the fat is gone and I LOOK bigger.

^^ this.

My train of thought follows along these lines.

If it takes x amount of calories to maintain EVERYTHING that is already there, then if I want to ADD something I'm going to need to ADD calories (x + 500 calories) so my body can make magic!

Conversely, if I want to LOSE something (fat, please go away!!) then I have to LOSE calories ( x - 500 calories) so my body takes stored energy, breaks it loose and uses it to fuel my body.

NOTE: my equations are generic and only used as an example.

ninerbuff

So I was involved in a recent discussion where everyone said you can't get muscular unless you add calories, so I thought I'd throw it out to the community to get your thoughts. Here are some questions.

1. If I am overweight, untrained and really have no muscularity and I currently eat 4000 calories a day, if I cut my calories to 3000 a day and weight train hard, it is impossible for me to gain muscle?

No, but don't expect a big gain.

2. If I am a 180 pound man, and keep around my normal calories or even slightly under my calories and I train hard, it is impossible for me to gain any new muscle?

Never impossible. Recomp does happen, but nutrition would have to be pretty spot on.

I'm really curious about this topic and looking forward to the responses from those of you who are knowledgeable on this topic. When I pointed out that I had lost weight and built muscle, I was told the muscle I had just showed more as I lost weight. The thing is, I didn't really have any muscle. And if that's true, how did I go from a 36" waist to a 32" while adding more than an inch to my arms? How did my pants get loose, while my shirts got tighter in the chest and arms?

Looking forward to your comments.

Any type of working out will increase muscle "volume". Heck, take a competitive bodybuilder right out of competition and let him load up on salt, water and carbs..................muscle "volume" increases within a few hours.
One could even increase muscle size temporarily by just working out.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

No_Finish_Line

So I was involved in a recent discussion where everyone said you can't get muscular unless you add calories, so I thought I'd throw it out to the community to get your thoughts. Here are some questions.

1. If I am overweight, untrained and really have no muscularity and I currently eat 4000 calories a day, if I cut my calories to 3000 a day and weight train hard, it is impossible for me to gain muscle?

2 If I am a 180 pound man, and keep around my normal calories or even slightly under my calories and I train hard, it is impossible for me to gain any new muscle?

I'm really curious about this topic and looking forward to the responses from those of you who are knowledgeable on this topic. When I pointed out that I had lost weight and built muscle, I was told the muscle I had just showed more as I lost weight. The thing is, I didn't really have any muscle. And if that's true, how did I go from a 36" waist to a 32" while adding more than an inch to my arms? How did my pants get loose, while my shirts got tighter in the chest and arms?

Looking forward to your comments.

if your arms are truley growing inches while your weight is coming down, i'm going to say thats a head scratcher.

my best guess is that it has something to do with the fact that you were untrained.

If you were eating at 4000 cals before, and came down to 3000, perhaps the 4000 was supporting such a disporportionately high body fat, that at 3000 you were technically in a defecit, but still had enough calories left over to build muscle.

lol idk, sounds like bro science.

you do fall into two of the exception groups, untrained and very overweight.

sometimes it seems like the newbie gains will happen no matter what you eat. woudln't expect this to last forever

No_Finish_Line

- BUT you can gain strength in your existing muscles. (How? I don't know. It's magic - ask SideSteel).

as you train a muscle, you build a better neurological connection to the muscle, regardless of how many calories you eat.

a better neurological connection means your brain recruits more muscle fibers when it sends a signal to contract.

Therefore you can use more of your existing muscle fibers, making you stronger without actually adding any mass.

MireyGal76

- BUT you can gain strength in your existing muscles. (How? I don't know. It's magic - ask SideSteel).

as you train a muscle, you build a better neurological connection to the muscle, regardless of how many calories you eat.

a better neurological connection means your brain recruits more muscle fibers when it sends a signal to contract.

Therefore you can use more of your existing muscle fibers, making you stronger without actually adding any mass.

Thank you!


eta... see! I told you it was magic. All that neurological connection stuff IS magic!

No_Finish_Line

Any type of working out will increase muscle "volume". Heck, take a competitive bodybuilder right out of competition and let him load up on salt, water and carbs..................muscle "volume" increases within a few hours.
One could even increase muscle size temporarily by just working out.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

never thought about it that way. even an increased number on a tape measure does not necessairly mean increased mass. if your talking about actual inches though (and not fractions of), i'm thinking you probably added mass

jmangini

So if I'm understanding everyone right, unless I take in more calories, really no matter how hard I work out, No matter what stress I put on my muscles, I can never expect to gain any more muscle than I already have? Wow, that is truly disheartening. I am eating the same as always and feel like i've put on a lot of muscle. Even friends who haven't seen me in a while ask if I'm on steroids. Funny thing is, I eat very few calories compared to most people with my body size and workout regime. By the way, I've posted my work out routine on another post. Since you are all so helpful on these 2, maybe you want to give your opinion on my routine too? I'd appreciate any comments.

mustgetmuscles1

Mass is added in an energy surplus and subtracted in a deficit. Even while dieting you have periods of time in the day where you are in a surplus (around meals). With proper training and nutrients you could manipulate the ratio of fat and muscle change.

There are plenty of studies that show an increase in LBM while being in an overall calorie deficit for a given length of time. So saying it is impossible is not correct but it is a matter of degree.

The amount of calories you are from maintenance changes the net gain or loss of fat and muscle. If you are in a 500 calorie deficit or a 50 calorie deficit makes a big difference.

It is more of a sliding scale as opposed to an on/off switch. If someone said they added muscle and lost fat while eating at maintenance (the normal recomp) no one would have a problem with it. It may be slow and inefficient compared to other methods but no one would say its impossible.

If they said they added muscle and lost fat while in a deficit then it gets a little complicated. What if the deficit was only a 100 calories? It might vary the amount of change in each but you could still end up with a net gain and loss in each. If it was a 500+ calorie deficit then it starts to get to a point where they would barely be able to repair and replace any muscle lost or damage from working out let alone have a net increase.

Galatea_Stone

Were you completely untrained? If so, then it is not impossible to gain some muscle while in a deficit. It won't be a lot, though.

Body recomposition is possible, but it will take you far longer than you think it will take you.

When do you measure? Is it right after you leave the gym when your muscles are pumped full of glycogen? An inch around the biceps is good, but it doesn't mean you have an overall muscle mass increase.

jmangini

So if I'm understanding everyone right, unless I take in more calories, really no matter how hard I work out, No matter what stress I put on my muscles, I can never expect to gain any more muscle than I already have? Wow, that is truly disheartening. I am eating the same as always and feel like i've put on a lot of muscle. Even friends who haven't seen me in a while ask if I'm on steroids. Funny thing is, I eat very few calories compared to most people with my body size and workout regime. By the way, I've posted my work out routine on another post. Since you are all so helpful on these 2, maybe you want to give your opinion on my routine too? I'd appreciate any comments.

I know what it is. Maybe I'm getting residual steroids their pumping in all our chickens these days! lol

ninerbuff

So if I'm understanding everyone right, unless I take in more calories, really no matter how hard I work out, No matter what stress I put on my muscles, I can never expect to gain any more muscle than I already have? Wow, that is truly disheartening. I am eating the same as always and feel like i've put on a lot of muscle. Even friends who haven't seen me in a while ask if I'm on steroids. Funny thing is, I eat very few calories compared to most people with my body size and workout regime. By the way, I've posted my work out routine on another post. Since you are all so helpful on these 2, maybe you want to give your opinion on my routine too? I'd appreciate any comments.

Just think about it logically a second. If one intends to gain muscle, then there is NO DOUBT mass will be added to the frame. Adding lean mass to the frame WILL RESULT in weight gain. Weight gain happens in calorie surplus, not calorie deficit.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

No_Finish_Line

So if I'm understanding everyone right, unless I take in more calories, really no matter how hard I work out, No matter what stress I put on my muscles, I can never expect to gain any more muscle than I already have? Wow, that is truly disheartening. I am eating the same as always and feel like i've put on a lot of muscle. Even friends who haven't seen me in a while ask if I'm on steroids. Funny thing is, I eat very few calories compared to most people with my body size and workout regime. By the way, I've posted my work out routine on another post. Since you are all so helpful on these 2, maybe you want to give your opinion on my routine too? I'd appreciate any comments.

I don't think anyone is saying that. although thier is definetly a limit on how much muscle an individual can gain.

its just hard if not impossible to build muscle with out eating a little extra.

to me it makes sense that you can't build something out of nothing.

jmangini

Were you completely untrained? If so, then it is not impossible to gain some muscle while in a deficit. It won't be a lot, though.

Body recomposition is possible, but it will take you far longer than you think it will take you.

When do you measure? Is it right after you leave the gym when your muscles are pumped full of glycogen? An inch around the biceps is good, but it doesn't mean you have an overall muscle mass increase.

I had trained like 25 years ago, and off an on over the years. But then had not trained for many years and got big with what I considered to be not much muscle whatsoever. I was belly heavy. Legs were sticks and arms were skinny. And no, I know better than to measure right after working out.

jmangini

So if I'm understanding everyone right, unless I take in more calories, really no matter how hard I work out, No matter what stress I put on my muscles, I can never expect to gain any more muscle than I already have? Wow, that is truly disheartening. I am eating the same as always and feel like i've put on a lot of muscle. Even friends who haven't seen me in a while ask if I'm on steroids. Funny thing is, I eat very few calories compared to most people with my body size and workout regime. By the way, I've posted my work out routine on another post. Since you are all so helpful on these 2, maybe you want to give your opinion on my routine too? I'd appreciate any comments.

Just think about it logically a second. If one intends to gain muscle, then there is NO DOUBT mass will be added to the frame. Adding lean mass to the frame WILL RESULT in weight gain. Weight gain happens in calorie surplus, not calorie deficit.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

so it's not possible to gain weight from muscle growth alone? I always hear about people stripping down on a diet then adding muscle and gaining substantial weight while still being lean and ripped. I want to point to Stallone back in the day, but everyone will say roids.

MireyGal76

One thought (and I'll be amazing if I frame this in a way that makes any science sense)...

(Picking numbers out of thin air)...
Someone starts out their journey... eating 3000 calories a day, and 100 pounds overweight...

They decide to eat at a mild deficit... say 2700 calories a day.
As they lose fat (because they are at a deficit), they continue to eat 2700 calories.
They may get to the point where 2700 calories is actually now closer to maintenance, as opposed to a deficit.

If they continue to lose fat, and stay at 2700 calories... they may approach the point where they actually have surplus to manage the building of muscle.

The 2700 is a deficit of what they originally used to eat... so they think they are dieting... but their body actually has more to play with, and therefore can use some of that toward body recomp.

My process has been slow, but noticeable. I don't do defined bulk and cut cycles... but sometimes I have a phase where my body WANTS ALL THE FOOD, and I find myself eating more than I "should"...

Then I notice my scale climbing, and I reign in my eating again.

Mini bulks and cuts.

Is it the most efficient way to do it? No.

Has it worked for me? I'd say so.

liekewheeless

If you have plenty of fat for fuel, why couldn't some of that be used to support muscle growth?

Maybe I'm thinking a little to simplistic. Your body can still "make" things when in deficit. (a cut still heals, hair still grows, etc) So why couldn't you burn of fat and gain muscle? You won't get heavier. But couldn't you for example lose 10lb of fat and gain 1lb of muscle?

skittlesnhoney

I found this extremely helpful. Maybe you will too.

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/818594-building-muscle-and-losing-fat-at-the-same-time

jmangini

One thought (and I'll be amazing if I frame this in a way that makes any science sense)...

(Picking numbers out of thin air)...
Someone starts out their journey... eating 3000 calories a day, and 100 pounds overweight...

They decide to eat at a mild deficit... say 2700 calories a day.
As they lose fat (because they are at a deficit), they continue to eat 2700 calories.
They may get to the point where 2700 calories is actually now closer to maintenance, as opposed to a deficit.

If they continue to lose fat, and stay at 2700 calories... they may approach the point where they actually have surplus to manage the building of muscle.

The 2700 is a deficit of what they originally used to eat... so they think they are dieting... but their body actually has more to play with, and therefore can use some of that toward body recomp.

My process has been slow, but noticeable. I don't do defined bulk and cut cycles... but sometimes I have a phase where my body WANTS ALL THE FOOD, and I find myself eating more than I "should"...

Then I notice my scale climbing, and I reign in my eating again.

Mini bulks and cuts.

Is it the most efficient way to do it? No.

Has it worked for me? I'd say so.

That actually makes perfect sense to me. Now that I think about it, I guess I do mini bulks and cuts too. Thanks.

jmangini

If you have plenty of fat for fuel, why couldn't some of that be used to support muscle growth?

Maybe I'm thinking a little to simplistic. Your body can still "make" things when in deficit. (a cut still heals, hair still grows, etc) So why couldn't you burn of fat and gain muscle? You won't get heavier. But couldn't you for example lose 10lb of fat and gain 1lb of muscle?

That is totally what I believed. That's why I posted this.

jmangini

Maybe someone wants to give me their thoughts on my work out routine I posted as another topic?

SunofaBeach14

You can gain muscle in a calorie deficit IF you are previously untrained, are retraining, or are taking steroids. These rules of thumb keep getting misunderstood as absolutes on here and this thread is a perfect example.

jmangini

I do take a lot of supplements. Mostly amino acids. My fav and the one I notice great results with is HMB. I started taking it when I read research on it that it preserves muscle when dieting, since I don't eat much.

ninerbuff

So if I'm understanding everyone right, unless I take in more calories, really no matter how hard I work out, No matter what stress I put on my muscles, I can never expect to gain any more muscle than I already have? Wow, that is truly disheartening. I am eating the same as always and feel like i've put on a lot of muscle. Even friends who haven't seen me in a while ask if I'm on steroids. Funny thing is, I eat very few calories compared to most people with my body size and workout regime. By the way, I've posted my work out routine on another post. Since you are all so helpful on these 2, maybe you want to give your opinion on my routine too? I'd appreciate any comments.

Just think about it logically a second. If one intends to gain muscle, then there is NO DOUBT mass will be added to the frame. Adding lean mass to the frame WILL RESULT in weight gain. Weight gain happens in calorie surplus, not calorie deficit.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

so it's not possible to gain weight from muscle growth alone? I always hear about people stripping down on a diet then adding muscle and gaining substantial weight while still being lean and ripped. I want to point to Stallone back in the day, but everyone will say roids.

Gaining lean muscle is an energy surplus. Doesn't have to be a big surplus. One can add muscle and still stay lean, but it doesn't negate the fact that a surplus is still happening. As for Stallone, it's roids.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

Edmond_Dantes

So if I'm understanding everyone right, unless I take in more calories, really no matter how hard I work out, No matter what stress I put on my muscles, I can never expect to gain any more muscle than I already have? Wow, that is truly disheartening. I am eating the same as always and feel like i've put on a lot of muscle. Even friends who haven't seen me in a while ask if I'm on steroids. Funny thing is, I eat very few calories compared to most people with my body size and workout regime. By the way, I've posted my work out routine on another post. Since you are all so helpful on these 2, maybe you want to give your opinion on my routine too? I'd appreciate any comments.

Yes, you can gain muscle while losing fat. When will this silly myth die?

For one, you have fat for fuel. You are using it. Your body has not stopped functioning because you reduced your calorie intake. Fat is potential energy. I think many broscience MFPers don't understand this.

Secondly, when you put stress on your body, it can respond by building muscle even while losing fat. You do have to supply the building blocks in the form of protein in your diet. Their are papers and meta-analyses in PubMed that show a gain in lean body mass while losing fat mass. Not really up to dispute, but you should read some of the interesting rebuttals. (This has nothing to do with snowflakes or building a house while breaking it down.)

Now we wait for the usual gang to come in and say it is not possible.

MireyGal76

If you have plenty of fat for fuel, why couldn't some of that be used to support muscle growth?

Maybe I'm thinking a little to simplistic. Your body can still "make" things when in deficit. (a cut still heals, hair still grows, etc) So why couldn't you burn of fat and gain muscle? You won't get heavier. But couldn't you for example lose 10lb of fat and gain 1lb of muscle?

That is totally what I believed. That's why I posted this.

Again, I think it's a matter of the fact that we don't live in a vaccuum. Life is never absolute.

If you are eating close to maintenance, even at a mild deficit... the reality is that some days you may be way more active than others... those days, you may have a greater deficit and be a fat burning machine (even if you eat back most of your exercise cals)... will you be in a position to build muscle? No.

But other days you may have a lazy day where you sit on the couch all day and barely burn anything. Those days, you're likely eating at a surplus.

On average, over the week, you may be at an overall deficit - but some days you're over, some under.

I don't know how fast the body turns around the building of muscle, burning of fat. A daily fluctuation probably doesn't yield much in terms of fast results. But the principle is there, and I think it is what 'body recomp' is all about.

The thing we see here, more often though, is a large volume of people who want to lose AS MUCH WEIGHT AS POSSIBLE... and so they eat at a crazy deficit, and probably lose a good deal of lean body mass while they're at it. (The body needs money, and starts selling any assets it can for that lil bit of cash).


Anyhoo... I'm rambling. I'll stop now.

mustgetmuscles1

If you have plenty of fat for fuel, why couldn't some of that be used to support muscle growth?

Maybe I'm thinking a little to simplistic. Your body can still "make" things when in deficit. (a cut still heals, hair still grows, etc) So why couldn't you burn of fat and gain muscle? You won't get heavier. But couldn't you for example lose 10lb of fat and gain 1lb of muscle?

That is totally what I believed. That's why I posted this.

The problem with this is that when you eat protein, which is needed to build muscle, you create insulin. Insulin stops the use of fat for energy. So you cant really use your stored fat to support muscle growth while you have the protein available.

Since protein can also be used for energy it will be burned up and it can not really be stored for later use.

You will only have a surplus of energy and protein, simultaneously, around feeding times while in a deficit. This will only be for a small portion of the day and most likely only long enough to just repair and replace what got used for the work out and not enough time for any new mass (depending on the size of the deficit).

You will not have protein available while body fat is being used for energy. Fat can not be converted to protein so you can not use stored body fat to build muscle.

jmangini

If you have plenty of fat for fuel, why couldn't some of that be used to support muscle growth?

Maybe I'm thinking a little to simplistic. Your body can still "make" things when in deficit. (a cut still heals, hair still grows, etc) So why couldn't you burn of fat and gain muscle? You won't get heavier. But couldn't you for example lose 10lb of fat and gain 1lb of muscle?

That is totally what I believed. That's why I posted this.

Again, I think it's a matter of the fact that we don't live in a vaccuum. Life is never absolute.

If you are eating close to maintenance, even at a mild deficit... the reality is that some days you may be way more active than others... those days, you may have a greater deficit and be a fat burning machine (even if you eat back most of your exercise cals)... will you be in a position to build muscle? No.

But other days you may have a lazy day where you sit on the couch all day and barely burn anything. Those days, you're likely eating at a surplus.

On average, over the week, you may be at an overall deficit - but some days you're over, some under.

I don't know how fast the body turns around the building of muscle, burning of fat. A daily fluctuation probably doesn't yield much in terms of fast results. But the principle is there, and I think it is what 'body recomp' is all about.

The thing we see here, more often though, is a large volume of people who want to lose AS MUCH WEIGHT AS POSSIBLE... and so they eat at a crazy deficit, and probably lose a good deal of lean body mass while they're at it. (The body needs money, and starts selling any assets it can for that lil bit of cash).


Anyhoo... I'm rambling. I'll stop now.

actually, I find your posts very interesting. You must have been at this a long time, because I totally understand what you are saying and after reading it, it makes total sense to me and I can totally relate. It seems that you are describing my cycles lol Especially the laying around after a work out because I just beat the sh out of my body.