Stop Doing Sit-Ups!

AdventureVia

I've been seeing a lot of information out there on why situps and crunches are crazy bad for your back and why other exercises are much healthier for strengthening your core and abs. My last landlord was also my chiropractor and he turned me on to it before I had started being healthy but now those words are ringing in my ears. Anyway here's a link to a newsweek health blog article thing that does a pretty good job of explaining the why's and giving some alternatives. Save your back, you've only got one! (Also I am loving the lower ab burn I am feeling from leg raises, never got that with crunches!)

http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/the-human-condition/2009/06/03/stop-doing-sit-ups-why-crunches-don-t-work.html

LuckyLeprechaun

HAHA well...if you insist!

AdventureVia

lol! I totally insist. No point in straining something when there are other safer options!

jlbay

GLADLY! :laugh:

Even with lots of reps, I've not had a great time with crunches until I added in some of these other exercises (planks, leg raises). I think I will experiment with a no crunch ab routine (I do hate the neck pain). Thanks!

TrainingWithTonya

Just FYI: Leg lifts or the leg drop described in this article, won't work your abs at all. They work the iliopsoas muscles (aka, hip flexors). You work your hip flexors just by picking up your leg to walk across the room so there is no need to do an additional exercise for them. The abdominal muscles (rectus, tranverse, and obliques) connect the pelvis to the rib cage at various attachment points and in various angles and can only be worked by moving either the pelvis toward the rib cage or the rib cage toward the pelvis. Yes, this can be done isometrically with no "bending" to the back (It's actually a straightening of the spine as it bends backwards naturally in the lumbar region.) but there is no scientific evidence that bending the spine is inherently bad for it. In fact, it is designed the way it is to allow for the flexibility to bend and twist without injury. If their theories were correct, everyone in the world would have herniated discs just from sitting up to get out of bed daily. I think that maybe this reporter took something said by these doctors about full sit ups and applied it improperly to crunches as well. Trust information in professional journals, not over the counter magazines.

darkrider42

I stopped doing them a while back just cuz I hate 'em! I started doing the straight leg lifts and soon I'm going to (re)incorporate -- I don't remember what they're called, but the ones where you lie on your back, with legs straight up/feet together and keeping the shoulders flat on the mat, drop both legs to the left and then to the right and back to center. Seems to work the obliques. It's not Torso Twisters, those were done from a standing position...Windmills? No I don't think that's right either....dang it, now I'm going to have to go dig out one of my old USMC books.

AdventureVia

Sorry Tony but you're wrong. Ask any chiropractor or just do a basic google search and you'll find more indepth articles citing loads of back specialists, just like this one.

http://www.fitnessrxmag.com/fitness/training/416-sit-ups-for-great-abs-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly.html

akela4860

Dark riider42, my tranier had me do those,, they were called leg sweeps but i had to hold a 30lb bar bell straight above me at the same time. He also did not believe in crunches unless there was something supporting my back. i used either a medicine ball on my lower back or a bosu ball. I have found through experience that the leg sweeps, leg raises and planks both reg and side have made a huge difference on my core. just sayin,,,,,,

TrainingWithTonya

Sorry Tony but you're wrong. Ask any chiropractor or just do a basic google search and you'll find more indepth articles citing loads of back specialists, just like this one.

http://www.fitnessrxmag.com/fitness/training/416-sit-ups-for-great-abs-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly.html

Again, you're giving an over the counter magazine article, not a peer reviewed journal or a scientific study. I'm currently studying biomechanics and having to do the real research. Actual experts who do the research won't put their information in over the counter magazines. They put their information in professional journals. Cite some actual research studies and then I'll believe it, but you can't do that because they aren't out there.

FutureMrsEssman

Thanks for that, i've been looking for alternatives. I hate crunches.

TrainingWithTonya

Here are some actual research studies on the subject. This is just a quick search from PubMed, which is what we get them through for school. As a student we have access to anything we find through the school library for free, but you may actually have to purchase the full text articles. These links will show the abstracts though.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20651013

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1838423 (recommends prescribing flexion and extension exercises to rehab back pain)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/419393 And here's one where they actually measured the disc pressure in paralyzed individuals and show that the pressure from flexion of 30-50 degrees (like with a crunch) is actually less then the pressure in the discs from the normal movements they endure by being moved.

Like I said, the spine is designed to bend and flex. If you don't use it by bending and flexing you won't keep the joints flexible and will actually be at greater risk of injury later in life. Do I believe that crunches are the be all end all best ab exercise, no, but they are a safe and effective part of a complete core training program.

fitbot

but but but i love my crunches

Ms_Natalie

I love scissor crunches! They have been working wonders.

sit ups should not really be hurting your back...you're supposed to use your tummy muscles to pull you up! keep looking at the ceiling throughout your work out to avoid strain on your neck and back.

however, I understand the OP's take on sit up's. All sciences are based on theories and research, and like you, Trainingwithtony, I have the resources to look for cited research in most fields, however, I am in a psychology based science. All research has it's pros and cons and is there to be cited or challenged. I am sure if you returned to your journal database, you could find a similar number of studies who support the OP's theory.

The great thing is about this site, is people can have a friendly debate without things turning sour. I also believe that items picked from over the counter mags hold some truth...they are the ideas that are turned into research...

TrainingWithTonya

however, I understand the OP's take on sit up's. All sciences are based on theories and research, and like you, Trainingwithtony, I have the resources to look for cited research in most fields, however, I am in a psychology based science. All research has it's pros and cons and is there to be cited or challenged. I am sure if you returned to your journal database, you could find a similar number of studies who support the OP's theory.

Actually, no, I looked for alternative opinions from my own and my professors from reputable sources but they aren't there. Every possible piece of research I could find on back injuries has stated that movement through a full range of motion of flexion and extension should be used to prevent injury. Nothing about flexing and extending the spine in it's normal range of motion has been proven to cause back injuries. Letting the joints lose flexibility by not using the joints between the vertebrae through a full range of motion, however, has been proven to increase the risk of injury in normal daily activity because normal daily activity requires those movements.

I commented on this because as a trainer I hate to see people risk their future health because of listening to quacks who put their opinions in rag mags to increase sales and to increase their own business and don't base it on science. That would be irresponsible as a trainer because my first job is to prevent injury in a workout setting, even on an online forum.

AdventureVia

I sure don't know why all the chiropractors are pointing to the studies like those done at the University of Waterloo on the spine and how situps exert more than the recommended newtons of force on your back. It just makes no sense since Tony can't find anything. Weird right? All those chiropractors and none of them know **** about back strain and what can cause it. Weird.

Lyadeia

My personal experience while decreasing my weight from clinically obese to what I am now has shown me that as long as I am using proper form with my exercise, crunches do not cause injury. When my form fails to be correct, I get injured.

After reading articles on BOTH sides of the fence, it is obvious to me that the back pain observed by people are not performing proper crunches. It is a much smaller movement than most people actually do, and if you are moving too much for your flexibility range and strength, sure, it can hurt and cause strain. Sit-ups, even those half ones where you touch your elbows to your knees, is too much movement to be considered proper form.

There are great alternatives to lying on the floor and doing crunches, but make sure that you are not using your hip flexors instead (such as the leg lifts discussed earlier...if your abs aren't strong enough, all you will do with those is make the tops of your thighs ache!).

But please don't make the mistake in leading people away from crunches when all they really need to do is clean up their form. It only causes strain if done improperly.

Lyadeia

And BTW, that other poster's name is TONYA not Tony. LOL...look at the signature. :flowerforyou:

TrainingWithTonya

I sure don't know why all the chiropractors are pointing to the studies like those done at the University of Waterloo on the spine and how situps exert more than the recommended newtons of force on your back. It just makes no sense since Tony can't find anything. Weird right? All those chiropractors and none of them know **** about back strain and what can cause it. Weird.

First of all, since you finally mentioned a specific study, here is what I could find on the Waterloo study that actually mentioned some specifics of the study. http://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com/archive/low-back-pain-exercises.html

They were actually focused on finding out if knee position was a factor in preventing back pain/injury during abdominal exercises and to find what exercise might optimize the muscle recruitment of all of the abdominal muscles (rectus, transverse and obliques). Nothing in there says that sit ups are bad for your back. They actually tested several forms of ab exercises, including the isometric that your original article recommended. Quoting from the article in the Sports Injury Bulletin link I just posted,

"The Waterloo investigators had things well covered, and they were interested in a unique variable associated with each of the 12 exercises – the maximum abdominal muscle EMG value divided by the maximum compression value of the spine. As you can see, those exercises which stressed the abs to the greatest extent and compressed the spine to the least extent would have the highest scores (as a result of the lofty numerator and depressed denominator) – and could be assumed to provide the best ab-building and smallest spine-crunching effects. However, the Waterloo explorations revealed that no single exercise optimally trained the abdominal muscles while simultaneously minimising the loads and forces applied between vertebrae of the back.

As it turned out, there was absolutely no statistically significant difference in the compressive force applied between the fourth and fifth lumbar vertebrae for the straight-leg versus bent-leg sit-ups! In fact, bent-leg sit-ups tended to produce the highest amount of lumbar compression, while curl-ups generally produced the least compressive force. No single exercise was able to appreciably stimulate all of the abdominal muscles simultaneously. For example, simple straight-leg sit-ups provided a good challenge for the rectus abdominis muscles but not for the external obliques. Meanwhile, isometric side supports did a great job with the external-oblique muscles but failed their rectus-abdominis test."

So, according to the study you referred to, sit ups weren't any worse then anything else, crunches seemed to be the best, and isometrics failed to engage the rectus abdominis.


Second, Chiropractors aren't Exercise Physiologists, so no, they don't have a clue how an Exercise will effect anything. I'll be glad to give you a list of the 2 dozen or so chiropractors over the years who have had me train their patients because they aren't educated in how to train their ab and back muscles in how to maintain the full range of motion for the spine and to strengthen those muscles to maintain proper alignment. I fully believe in chiropractic medicine because it worked wonders for the 2 herniated disc's I received in a car accident years ago. I refer my clients to them when needed, so chiropractors have their benefits. The reason they refer their clients to me, however, is because I'm the first person they've ever worked with who has absolutely no lumbar pain. The low back pain that plagues 80% of the population isn't an issue for me because I've trained my core muscles, rectus abdominis, transverse abdominis, obliques, erector spinea, etc. for years. I have done crunches since I was in elementary school, took PE every year in high school to continue them, was a professional athlete right out of high school and continued them, and have been a trainer for 14 years to continue a complete core training program. For the past few years, I've taught a twice weekly 30 minute core class that includes approximately 1000 repetitions of various crunches, twists, and extensions to hit every angle of the torso. That class uses all forms of ab work to build strength and endurance. The endurance aspect of it is what they are looking for in the other study mentioned in the article above that has actually proven to be an indicator of the prevention of back pain. Back pain isn't caused by an exercise unless it is done with poor form. Back pain is caused by lack of exercise. So, my best advice is to quit believing media hype that says a specific exercise is bad for you and using it to give you an excuse to not do something. Do a variety of ab exercises, AND low back exercises. Use proper form and do as many as you possibly can with that form. When form is lost, stop. In a couple of days, do as many as you can again. Build that endurance and strength together and maintain a full range of motion of the spine in order to prevent possible future injury. If you don't and you choose to believe this mis-quoted hype that sit ups and crunches are terrible for your back, then don't be surprised when 20 years from now when you are sitting on the couch and reach for something on the coffee table if your back suddenly spasms or subluxates. I've done my job and given you the facts.

sillygoose1977

Any exercise will hurt you if your form isn't correct. I never have any pain from ab exercises, in fact, my back feels stronger since I've been doing them. That is only my opinion. I tend not to read into any articles or nonsense like that and listen to my own body.

TrainingWithTonya

And BTW, that other poster's name is TONYA not Tony. LOL...look at the signature. :flowerforyou:

Thank you! It's always shocking to me that people can't tell the screen name is cut off due to space since I have my name in the signature. It's refreshing to see that there are people on here who actually do completely read a post before replying. ;-)

Ms_Natalie

I apologise Tonya...however, I think you find people will call you tony due to your username...I certainly don't go looking at everyone's signatures to respond to them! I use your username...because it's your username after all.

I have a best female friend called tony, so didn't realise I was missing an A :laugh:

Can't everyone just agree to diagree? That's what forums are for afterall? for discussion and debate? I think discussions only end up in positive learning...

Sheesh...no need to get personal :noway:

TrainingWithTonya

I apologise Tonya...however, I think you find people will call you tony due to your username...I certainly don't go looking at everyone's signatures to respond to them! I use your username...because it's your username after all.

I have a best female friend called tony, so didn't realise I was missing an A :laugh:

Can't everyone just agree to diagree? That's what forums are for afterall? for discussion and debate? I think discussions only end up in positive learning...

Sheesh...no need to get personal :noway:

It's not a big deal, that's why I haven't mentioned it previously. But my user name is TrainingWithTonya, not TrainingWithTony. As soon as I realized that the forums cut it off (even though it isn't cut off on my profile), I made sure to put my name in my signature so that people would know who they are conversing with. I don't want anyone to think I am misrepresenting myself.

As for the forums, I agree and disagree with you. Discussion is great. Passing on information that is misquoted and incorrect is common, though, and some of it can lead to injury, which isn't so great. Just like in a gym, if I see something that has the potential to cause harm, it is my ethical responsibility as a fitness professional to inform the person so that they have the opportunity to prevent an injury. In a forum, I feel that there are a lot of very well meaning people, like the person who started this thread, who have been poorly informed by the media system that promote a lot of bad information. They think they are helping others by posting articles they see in popular magazines or online. Unfortunately, popular media is only about sales figures and not about actual benefit. Knowing that ab work is so unpopular (Heck, I teach it and still don't like doing it!), they know that they aren't going to sell magazines by saying do more ab work, so they take a sentence or two that a professional says and twist it around to a story that will sell magazines. And people who hate ab work will buy them because they want to know this new fabulous way to work their abs without having to do the dreaded crunch. It's human nature. I just hate that people don't realize that they have to read the real research to get the full story and most people don't have the resources to read the real research, so they are stuck believing the popular media portrayal of it. Since I'm actually involved in a program that does research and have access to the research studies when they are peer reviewed and published, I try to share the real information so that people don't get hurt. I'm not personally offended by people who don't believe the science, just frustrated that they may take others with them down the road to injury.

AdventureVia

And I'm just mostly frustrated by Tony.

TateFTW

There's nothing wrong with crunches. The problem is based in a misunderstanding of how the abs work. They stabalize the core, but the actuall muscles work to bring the chest closer to the hips. This is why traditional situps are useless. The chest doesn't move any closer to the hips. Instead, the hip flexors (the muscles the bring your KNEES closer to your chest) take over. The hip flexors also do all the work when you do leg lifts and keep your butt on the ground. If, however, you lift your butt off the ground at the top of a leg lift, your abs are activated, but ONLY in the act of lifting the butt off the ground. Any strain placed on the abs during leg lifts is purely because the abs are tihgtening to stabalize everything else.

Exercises that only tighten the abs and don't allow the muscle to contract under tension are highly inefficient for training the muscls themselves. That would be like just holding a bar over your head and saying you did overhead presses, or simply holding a bar on your back and saying you did squats.

My favorite ab exercises are weighted crunches (I like to use the lower cable on a cable station for these while laying on a sideways bench to increase range of motion. I hold a bar attached to the cable on either side of my head, then allow my abs to stretch fully, then squeeze my chest towards my hips.) and incline bench leg lifts, making sure to lift my butt off the bench as soon in the movement as possible so the weight of my legs is placed on my abs as they contract, as opposed to lifting my legs all the way up, THEN lifting my butt. Remember, your abs are only working when your butt is off the ground in leg lifts.

AdventureVia

Tate - That makes quite a bit of sense! Thanks! I've been working hard to avoid further damaging my lower back (problems for years down there!), these sound like good options.

Scorpiomom222

Thank you for this post! I don't do situps or crunches much, but I was gonna try the challenge. Not anymore!

TateFTW

No problem. The truth is that abs only need very small movements while being trained. While sitting in a chair, arch your back and stick your chest out a little. Now round your back and face your chest towards the top of your thighs. This is the entire ROM (range of motion) for the abs that we consider the "6 pack". This same motion, while under tension, trains most of your abdominal muscles. The tension comes from gravity and weights if your on your back, or cables if your on your knees. Trying to use too big on an ROM is when you get into trouble and start twisting up your back. Just squeeze, then release.

KarenBorter

Haven't bothered to read some of the arguing / bickering going on here but have read enough of it to kinda shake my head. Look, do ANY exercise with poor form and you are going to hurt yourself. There are a lot of Yoga moves that I would say put as much, if not more, strain on your spine. I like my crunches and sit ups and have only recently learned proper form and my neck no longer hurts by doing them. I am about to start P90X that has an entire DVD dedicated to abs and I would hazard a guess that some of these moves are included.

In regard to the leg raises ... There was a whole section in the 30DS that worked the lower obliques which also works the hip flexers but they DID work my lower obliques and abdominals. I know because I measured ... as well as starting to get the "V" at the bottom. I think they DO help the abs and a personal trainer (certified) had me doing them as well for the same reasons.

Anyway ... the OP posted an article worth reading BUT I think that form is key here.

Scorpiomom222

No problem. The truth is that abs only need very small movements while being trained. While sitting in a chair, arch your back and stick your chest out a little. Now round your back and face your chest towards the top of your thighs. This is the entire ROM (range of motion) for the abs that we consider the "6 pack". This same motion, while under tension, trains most of your abdominal muscles. The tension comes from gravity and weights if your on your back, or cables if your on your knees. Trying to use too big on an ROM is when you get into trouble and start twisting up your back. Just squeeze, then release.

That is CRAZY! I never knew that would have any effect! I just did it for two minutes and felt a burn after about 20-30 seconds!

ka_42

I wouldn't be where I am today without a variation of crunches.

TateFTW

No problem. The truth is that abs only need very small movements while being trained. While sitting in a chair, arch your back and stick your chest out a little. Now round your back and face your chest towards the top of your thighs. This is the entire ROM (range of motion) for the abs that we consider the "6 pack". This same motion, while under tension, trains most of your abdominal muscles. The tension comes from gravity and weights if your on your back, or cables if your on your knees. Trying to use too big on an ROM is when you get into trouble and start twisting up your back. Just squeeze, then release.

That is CRAZY! I never knew that would have any effect! I just did it for two minutes and felt a burn after about 20-30 seconds!

Yup. Now just lay on the ground with a rolled up towel under your lower back and do the exact same thing. All you have to do is raise your shoulders about 3 inches off the ground and squeeze. Another way of thinking about it is that a string is tied to your chin and someone is standing above you pulling the string. Raise your chin just a few inches, using your abs to do the lifting, then smoothly release back down. That's an old trick people use to keep from kinking your neck towards your pelvis.