question re: replenishing glycogen

ahoy_m8

Every so often a poster comments that a ~2 pound gain upon starting maintenance is attributable to glycogen hydration in muscles/liver, as if glycogen is totally depleted as long as one is eating at a deficit. I *imagine* that our bodies are continuously storing energy or using energy stores all day long, even when we're eating at a deficit. E.g. I might completely deplete my glycogen in a tough workout, but as soon as I start eating carbs my body will start squirreling away more glycogen for the next adventure, even if I end up with a deficit overall.

I'm 6 weeks into a maintenance phase wherein I have increased daily calories every 2 weeks, and in my 2nd week at 1500kcal/day (still a modest deficit by best estimates). I've continued minor weight loss in maintenance, but my weight is up 2 pounds this week. I wish I weren't a scale slave, but that's advice for a different post. I'd appreciate anyone who can shed light (or links) on glycogen replenishment mechanisms, whether in a deficit or not.

acpgee

Don't have the answers, though this might help.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/56/1/292S.full.pdf

Glycogen is only ever fully depleted when you "hit the wall" during an endurance event. Believe me, you will notice when this happens because you can't think straight. Muscles can run on fat, but the brain only runs on carbs.

SonicDeathMonkey80

Chocolate milk.

And PS it can take hours of activity to deplete your glycogen stores.

dieselbyte

Don't have the answers, though this might help.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/56/1/292S.full.pdf

Glycogen is only ever fully depleted when you "hit the wall" during an endurance event. Believe me, you will notice when this happens because you can't think straight. Muscles can run on fat, but the brain only runs on carbs.

^This. Wish those on a keto diet realized that glycerin (glycerol) is meabolized from fat for energy for the brain.

And PS it can take hours of activity to deplete your glycogen stores.

^And this.

I can't find the exact link to the article I read, but search Lyle McDonanld and refeeds. Also Layne Norton. They do a great job explaining glycogen stores and replenishment, as well as the fact that if fats are kept low enough, excess carb intake will have no negative effect on weight (fat) gain. Our bodies would much rather store dietary fat as fat. As far as glucose, our bodies would rather burn any excess glucose not stored. Also, studies show that glycogen stores are "full" at about 7g-9g per lbs of lbm.

dieselbyte

apologies for double post

thyella

As I understand it you shouldn't be too worried about your you glycogen. It is for reserve and the body will alway replace it first. It is your fight or flight reserve. Remember your brain only works off of glucose so the body stores an easily converted source. It takes 60 to 90 minutes to deplete. A soccer game. You see the players cramp later in the game? They have used up their stores and their bodies are looking for other sources or going to an anaerobic energy source. Glycogen is not what is affecting your weight loss.

3dogsrunning

Every so often a poster comments that a ~2 pound gain upon starting maintenance is attributable to glycogen hydration in muscles/liver, as if glycogen is totally depleted as long as one is eating at a deficit. I *imagine* that our bodies are continuously storing energy or using energy stores all day long, even when we're eating at a deficit. E.g. I might completely deplete my glycogen in a tough workout, but as soon as I start eating carbs my body will start squirreling away more glycogen for the next adventure, even if I end up with a deficit overall.

I'm 6 weeks into a maintenance phase wherein I have increased daily calories every 2 weeks, and in my 2nd week at 1500kcal/day (still a modest deficit by best estimates). I've continued minor weight loss in maintenance, but my weight is up 2 pounds this week. I wish I weren't a scale slave, but that's advice for a different post. I'd appreciate anyone who can shed light (or links) on glycogen replenishment mechanisms, whether in a deficit or not.

Glycogen stores are always changing, not just dependant on exercise alone. It depends on daily activity, what you eat and when. Eat lower amount of carbs, particularly over a few days and you will have lower stores. Up your carbs and you'll see a spike.
It is very difficult to completely deplete you glycogen, as someone mentioned, it often takes hours of steady exercise. Marathoners are at risk of depletion, otherwise referred to as hitting the wall. Bodybuilders also play with glycogen stores, intentionally eating low carbs and specific workouts to deplete, then re-introduce carbs strategically for competition. A tough workout would lower your levels and when you start eating it would be replaced, but most workouts aren't going to completely deplete you.

I am not quite sure what you are asking but I can assure you that there are fluctations in glycogen regardless of being in a deficit or not.

likitisplit

My non-expert understanding is that your body does restock muscle glycogen after you eat - and then depletes them again before it breaks into your fat stores. If you weighed yourself every hour, you'd see some of this.

My personal experience is that I'll immediately lose 5 pounds when I start eating at a deficit and then regain them permanently a week or two after eating at maintenance/a bulk. I'm more focused on body fat % though - and it's not fat. It's stored carbs and water.

anzi888

Don't have the answers, though this might help.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/56/1/292S.full.pdf

Glycogen is only ever fully depleted when you "hit the wall" during an endurance event. Believe me, you will notice when this happens because you can't think straight. Muscles can run on fat, but the brain only runs on carbs.

^This. Wish those on a keto diet realized that glycerin (glycerol) is meabolized from fat for energy for the brain.

And PS it can take hours of activity to deplete your glycogen stores.

^And this.

I can't find the exact link to the article I read, but search Lyle McDonanld and refeeds. Also Layne Norton. They do a great job explaining glycogen stores and replenishment, as well as the fact that if fats are kept low enough, excess carb intake will have no negative effect on weight (fat) gain. Our bodies would much rather store dietary fat as fat. As far as glucose, our bodies would rather burn any excess glucose not stored. Also, studies show that glycogen stores are "full" at about 7g-9g per lbs of lbm.

This!

dieselbyte

Every so often a poster comments that a ~2 pound gain upon starting maintenance is attributable to glycogen hydration in muscles/liver, as if glycogen is totally depleted as long as one is eating at a deficit. I *imagine* that our bodies are continuously storing energy or using energy stores all day long, even when we're eating at a deficit. E.g. I might completely deplete my glycogen in a tough workout, but as soon as I start eating carbs my body will start squirreling away more glycogen for the next adventure, even if I end up with a deficit overall.

I'm 6 weeks into a maintenance phase wherein I have increased daily calories every 2 weeks, and in my 2nd week at 1500kcal/day (still a modest deficit by best estimates). I've continued minor weight loss in maintenance, but my weight is up 2 pounds this week. I wish I weren't a scale slave, but that's advice for a different post. I'd appreciate anyone who can shed light (or links) on glycogen replenishment mechanisms, whether in a deficit or not.

Glycogen stores are always changing, not just dependant on exercise alone. It depends on daily activity, what you eat and when. Eat lower amount of carbs, particularly over a few days and you will have lower stores. Up your carbs and you'll see a spike.
It is very difficult to completely deplete you glycogen, as someone mentioned, it often takes hours of steady exercise. Marathoners are at risk of depletion, otherwise referred to as hitting the wall. Bodybuilders also play with glycogen stores, intentionally eating low carbs and specific workouts to deplete, then re-introduce carbs strategically for competition. A tough workout would lower your levels and when you start eating it would be replaced, but most workouts aren't going to completely deplete you.

I am not quite sure what you are asking but I can assure you that there are fluctations in glycogen regardless of being in a deficit or not.

This

stealthq

If you google 'glycogen replenish diet pubmed', you get a lot of papers on how glycogen stores are replenished after exercise. The several I read all agree that replenishment is much faster with a higher carbohydrate diet, and that replenishment follows a pattern: quick synthesis after recovery to replenish a fraction of what was lost, that is significantly increased if you eat some carbs right after a workout and significantly slowed if your diet is relatively low in carbs. Then long term synthesis over several days to replenish the rest.

Here's my hypothesis - when dieting, we eat fewer carbs if for no other reason than we're eating less over all, and many cut back even more because carbs tend to be less satiating. That's going to slow glycogen replenishment while cutting. You don't see the replenishment on the scale while dieting because it's gradual enough to be hidden in other daily fluctuations and continuing fat loss. Plus, you're presumably exercising again before replenishment is complete.

Now, you stop dieting. You're eating more carbs simply because you're eating more food. You may also eat a higher percentage of carbs because you don't have to be as concerned if you aren't totally satisfied after eating a carb-heavy meal. You also are no longer losing fat. So now the replenishment is much faster, and there's no fat loss to partially hide the gain. Ergo, it's more visible to you on a scale.

davert123

I'm guessing it depends on how fast you are losing weight and how often you are exercising. If you are cutting hard and exercising a lot I could imagine your body will always be low on Glycogen and then when you go onto maintenance your body will replenish it (as well as having more stuff in transit thought your body). If you are only on slow loss and don't do mega amounts of cardio then I'm guessing that your glycogen levels will be about balanced and you won't increase weight a lot.

davert123

PS if you are completely depleted of Glycogen you become really aware of this fast as you feel like all of your energy has been sucked out of you (called hitting the wall in running or Bonking in cycling) . If you are mooing and don't feel like you are imminently going to pass out then you have glycogen still :-) The body carries a lot of calories in this way - in running I used to wall at about 11-12 miles which with my weight meant my legs were holding a lot of stored energy. In short you will never be running on empty just depleted. The best way to replenish is carbs immediately after exercising. Your body produced a hormone which forces more carbs into your muscle at a faster rate. TBH I always feel like not eating after a burn but the hunger kicks in later. Just eating when you want to (lots of complex carbs) will fill your muscles back up. (note this is a real effect whereas 1/2 hr protein after a session which is a bit of a fallacy.

ahoy_m8

Thanks for all the great comments. It's been a while since I read Lyle McDonald's stuff on refeeds, so I'll revisit it. @stealth, I like your hypothesis and clear explanation-thanks! @davert, logical thought on fast vs. slow loss, and I'm like you in preferring not to eat until a while after exercising, despite the hormonal advantage of doing so. Cheers to all!