"You can't build muscle on a deficit"
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My theory, please notice I said theory I am by no means a nutrition or fitness professional or expert, behind the severely overweight lifter having some gains is that the body is not truly running at as much of a deficit as our intake shows because we're burning our fat and human fat has calories too. Just a thought.0
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Okkkk thanks, I think I understand now. I will continue to lift and do squats etc..
I agree that people on this site can be WAY too judgmental about the 1200/cal diet when that is not the point of the thread and they have no idea about other factors. (People also don't understand that 4'9 women can and should eat a lot less. Lot's of knee-jerk reactions when one size does not fit all!) I also agree that explaining the reason why LC may not be great to newbies or 16 year olds with 10 lbs to lose can be helpful... I just wish people could be kinder/a little slower to react
I feel the same way about people who say "you can't gain muscle on a deficit" without really reading the facts. This has been super helpful!
Aye
Its like they just see 1200 calorie and red lights flash behind their eyes and they go poo flinging ape sh*$ lol hheh Your post has had some rather fortunate pleasant responses
I sooo agree with this! I am not 4'9" and as far as I know I don't have any metabolic diseases, but I am small--5' 2.5" and I weigh in the mid 120's. And I am almost 47 years old. And female. I. can't tell you how many times folks have scolded me for undereating, without considering the stats. I maintain my body weight at around 1600 cals a day ( including exercise), and I am pretty active! When I am dieting, or cutting, or whatever, I have to eat around 1400 total. If you take out exercise then I am netting well less than 1200. Usually when someone comes on really strong about this, they are in their 20's and much larger than me. I even had one gal admit that she had more lean body mass than I had entire body weight, but she still couldn't admit that a lower calorie goal would be more appropriate for me. Basically I listened to people like this, and gained 15 lbs!
Of course there is the other side of the coin--those who have high body weights and record exercise burns upwards of 500 cals, and still only eat 1200 cals (and don't eat back exercise). But all of us who eat low are not like that! I just wish everyone on here would stop and think before popping off with some answer that just might be bad advice!
Thanks for posting OP, because I love to keep learning from the folks who stop and think and give good advice!0 -
You're doing a great job of complaining about what people think about a 1200 calorie diet. A little sensitive are we? If you like limiting yourself to 1200 then go ahead, knock yourself out. If people like me laugh at people like you for insisting on eating so little by choice is going to bother you then I don't know what to tell you.Okkkk thanks, I think I understand now. I will continue to lift and do squats etc..
I agree that people on this site can be WAY too judgmental about the 1200/cal diet when that is not the point of the thread and they have no idea about other factors. (People also don't understand that 4'9 women can and should eat a lot less. Lot's of knee-jerk reactions when one size does not fit all!) I also agree that explaining the reason why LC may not be great to newbies or 16 year olds with 10 lbs to lose can be helpful... I just wish people could be kinder/a little slower to react I feel the same way about people who say "you can't gain muscle on a deficit" without really reading the facts. This has been super helpful!
Aye Its like they just see 1200 calorie and red lights flash behind their eyes and they go poo flinging ape sh*$ lol hheh Your post has had some rather fortunate pleasant responses 
Ty RG for finding my reply so important that you took the time to go search for a REALLY cool GIF and type in the html to post it! Thanks!
Nice so you generally like laughing at people with health conditions or just generally just hop in and make sarcastic remarks and laugh at people with out actually reading what you are replying to?0 -
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Why laugh at people at all? You're a man, you're larger, the OP and I are women, we're smaller. We don't laugh at your intake. I think maybe we should start. How much do you eat, so I can ridicule it? :laugh:If people like me laugh at people like you for insisting on eating so little by choice is going to bother you then I don't know what to tell you.
My Fitbit says I burned 1550 calories yesterday, total, with a C25K workout. I'm 10 lbs. into 'overweight BMI' so it's not vanity pounds I'm after. How much would you have me eat?
Let me guess-- "Go to the gym and spend two hours there so you can eat 700 more calories so you can lose at the same rate as if you didn't go to the gym, but at least you can brag about 'losing at 2000 calories intake'!" :laugh:0 -
"You can't build muscle on a deficit"
Barring newb gains and minimal gains an obese individual could achieve, this statement is true. You cannot be anabolic and catabolic at the same time. Saying you could gain any significant muscle mass eating at a deficit of energy would be akin to saying you could get fat eating at a deficit of energy...it's the same process, the difference being that a sedentary person eating at a surplus of energy is going to get fat...a gym rat who eats at a modest surplus is going to bulk on muscle (slowly) with minimal fat gains.
You also have to realize that strength gains do not equate to mass gains. You can make substantial gains in strength as your body recruits existing muscle and the CNS is trained to handle increasingly heavier loads for a long time before you would have to put on mass to compensate for the weight.
The benefits of strength training while you're dieting is preservation of the muscle you currently have...muscle is a use it or lose it kind of deal...it's an expensive "commodity" so your body will ditch it in an energy deficit if you're not using it in an effort to become more efficient with the energy you are taking in...working it helps preserve it. Bonus...when you shed the fat you have that "toned" look people are always asking about. Resistance training is also very beneficial in enhancement of bone density which is particularly important for women. There are numerous other benefits to resistance training that go well beyond putting on mass...the least of which is letting out your aggression.0 -
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Okkkk thanks, I think I understand now. I will continue to lift and do squats etc..
I agree that people on this site can be WAY too judgmental about the 1200/cal diet when that is not the point of the thread and they have no idea about other factors. (People also don't understand that 4'9 women can and should eat a lot less. Lot's of knee-jerk reactions when one size does not fit all!) I also agree that explaining the reason why LC may not be great to newbies or 16 year olds with 10 lbs to lose can be helpful... I just wish people could be kinder/a little slower to react I feel the same way about people who say "you can't gain muscle on a deficit" without really reading the facts. This has been super helpful!
Aye Its like they just see 1200 calorie and red lights flash behind their eyes and they go poo flinging ape sh*$ lol hheh Your post has had some rather fortunate pleasant responses
Ty RG for finding my reply so important that you took the time to go search for a REALLY cool GIF and type in the html to post it! Thanks!
Sure, no problem...... I know, 5 seconds of my life I'll never get back.
Serious Question: Why would you think I'd (or anyone else for that matter) type in the address?
Um dude, html is code, http is an address
Thanks... I'll stand by address.
Again, why would I type that in?0 -
My favorite read on the subject
http://muscleevo.net/calorie-deficit/#.U7678qiTH8k
If you don't want to read the whole thing:In summary, some people can and do build a decent amount of muscle while they’re in a calorie deficit.
But it’s a phenomenon that’s generally limited to people who are very overweight and have never lifted weights before, or those who are returning to exercise after a layoff, where muscle memory comes into play.
Once you’ve move past the “overweight beginner” stage, building a significant amount of muscle while losing fat is a goal that becomes progressively more difficult and will normally require some kind of calorie cycling strategy if you want to see decent results.0 -
2000 calories-- You're male, at maintenance (I assume), 16 years younger than me and well, you actually spend less time at exercise than I do. But you're probably more active overall, unless you too have a desk job.
Actually, 2000 seems kind of low for a young male in maintenance. Are you tiny? Can we make fun of you for being tiny? Because that's what it seems like when the men make fun of the women here for eating less, except they actually imply worse-- that we're stupid. Rolling eye gifs and outright ridicule. And then more men come in with "QFT" and "he's so right". It's bizarre.0 -
2000 calories-- You're male, at maintenance (I assume), 16 years younger than me and well, you actually spend less time at exercise than I do. But you're probably more active overall, unless you too have a desk job.
Actually, 2000 seems kind of low for a young male in maintenance. Are you tiny? Can we make fun of you for being tiny? Because that's what it seems like when the men make fun of the women here for eating less, except they actually imply worse-- that we're stupid. Rolling eye gifs and outright ridicule. And then more men come in with "QFT" and "he's so right". It's bizarre.
Some people just have something lacking in their life and it makes them feel "special" or getting on their big boy pants to ridicule perfect strangers. It makes them feel important i guess?0 -
2000 calories-- You're male, at maintenance (I assume), 16 years younger than me and well, you actually spend less time at exercise than I do. But you're probably more active overall, unless you too have a desk job.
Actually, 2000 seems kind of low for a young male in maintenance. Are you tiny? Can we make fun of you for being tiny? Because that's what it seems like when the men make fun of the women here for eating less, except they actually imply worse-- that we're stupid. Rolling eye gifs and outright ridicule. And then more men come in with "QFT" and "he's so right". It's bizarre.
The gif was about the claim, not the diet...... Just,say'n0 -
2000 calories-- You're male, at maintenance (I assume), 16 years younger than me and well, you actually spend less time at exercise than I do. But you're probably more active overall, unless you too have a desk job.
Actually, 2000 seems kind of low for a young male in maintenance. Are you tiny? Can we make fun of you for being tiny? Because that's what it seems like when the men make fun of the women here for eating less, except they actually imply worse-- that we're stupid. Rolling eye gifs and outright ridicule. And then more men come in with "QFT" and "he's so right". It's bizarre.
Some people just have something lacking in their life and it makes them feel "special" or getting on their big boy pants to ridicule perfect strangers. It makes them feel important i guess?0 -
About the claim that people go ape**** over 1200, though. Which does happen, every time.2000 calories-- You're male, at maintenance (I assume), 16 years younger than me and well, you actually spend less time at exercise than I do. But you're probably more active overall, unless you too have a desk job.
Actually, 2000 seems kind of low for a young male in maintenance. Are you tiny? Can we make fun of you for being tiny? Because that's what it seems like when the men make fun of the women here for eating less, except they actually imply worse-- that we're stupid. Rolling eye gifs and outright ridicule. And then more men come in with "QFT" and "he's so right". It's bizarre.
The gif was about the claim, not the diet...... Just,say'n0 -
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About the claim that people go ape**** over 1200, though. Which does happen, every time.2000 calories-- You're male, at maintenance (I assume), 16 years younger than me and well, you actually spend less time at exercise than I do. But you're probably more active overall, unless you too have a desk job.
Actually, 2000 seems kind of low for a young male in maintenance. Are you tiny? Can we make fun of you for being tiny? Because that's what it seems like when the men make fun of the women here for eating less, except they actually imply worse-- that we're stupid. Rolling eye gifs and outright ridicule. And then more men come in with "QFT" and "he's so right". It's bizarre.
The gif was about the claim, not the diet...... Just,say'n
I guess, IMHO, I don't think so.
Maybe when it's 18 year old kids trying to do it with 10 lbs to lose, or someone that defends it for 4 pages before brining up their stats...0 -
I don't really understand the whole "laughing at other people for eating so little" bit. If someone wants to lose the weight more quickly, that's their choice. That's equivalent to me laughing at someone who's morbidly obese for choosing to lose weight more slowly (e.g., 1 lb/week), even though they could safely lose weight at a much faster pace. Why care so much about how much other people are eating and how fast/slow they're looking to lose weight? And keep in mind we're talking 1200 target calories but calorie counting is reputably imprecise and many people tend to overestimate their caloric intake - meaning that their 1200 calories could be 1500 calories or it could be 1200 or it could be 1650 (you get my point). The target you set really isn't that important, as it's just an estimate anyways and should generally be adjusted over time anyways based on your progress. If a 1200 target has them losing weight at their desired rate (and assuming it's a reasonable rate), what's the problem?0
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If a 1200 target has them losing weight at their desired rate (and assuming it's a reasonable rate), what's the problem?
Because, malnutrition if you do this over the long term.
If people eating 1200 are guaranteeing me that they're getting all their vitamins and minerals and fiber and sufficient protein and fat to make their bodies work, then I'm fine(ish) with it. But look at the dietary guidelines. Without a lot of supplements, it. is. TOUGH to get adequate nutrition on only 1200 calories. Sure, it's enough calories to get out of bed. But vitamins and minerals, fiber, protein? THAT"S the real reason I urge people to eat as much as possible while still losing weight at a sensible rate. There's protein and fat you need to just make your body work. Not energy to move around. Just fat molecules to make your organs and nerves function properly.
Personally. Totally just MHO.
But I certainly don't, myself, make fun of them.0 -
Okkkk thanks, I think I understand now. I will continue to lift and do squats etc..
I agree that people on this site can be WAY too judgmental about the 1200/cal diet when that is not the point of the thread and they have no idea about other factors. (People also don't understand that 4'9 women can and should eat a lot less. Lot's of knee-jerk reactions when one size does not fit all!) I also agree that explaining the reason why LC may not be great to newbies or 16 year olds with 10 lbs to lose can be helpful... I just wish people could be kinder/a little slower to react I feel the same way about people who say "you can't gain muscle on a deficit" without really reading the facts. This has been super helpful!
If you don't reveal the facts (like height) when stating that you're following a lower calorie diet could be construed as inviting those telling you that you're probably not eating enough.....IMHO
I see what you're saying, but I've posted things like asking about how to up my fat intake or what are good high protein snacks for a 1200 diet. That is not at all asking for opinions on my 1200 cal diet (which is actually a 1600/day average diet when looking at the whole week, but I am asking about getting in fats on 1200 cal days). So... disagree about the "inviting" part. I hate how I have to put a disclaimer on posts like "Please do not comment on the 1200 diet on this thread". Not a big deal, just a little annoying
I have the same problem. Maybe try asking something like " what are some good high protein snacks for a lower calorie diet?" That way, noone really knows what your specific plan is.0 -
If a 1200 target has them losing weight at their desired rate (and assuming it's a reasonable rate), what's the problem?
Because, malnutrition if you do this over the long term.
If people eating 1200 are guaranteeing me that they're getting all their vitamins and minerals and fiber and sufficient protein and fat to make their bodies work, then I'm fine(ish) with it. But look at the dietary guidelines. Without a lot of supplements, it. is. TOUGH to get adequate nutrition on only 1200 calories. Sure, it's enough calories to get out of bed. But vitamins and minerals, fiber, protein? THAT"S the real reason I urge people to eat as much as possible while still losing weight at a sensible rate. There's protein and fat you need to just make your body work. Not energy to move around. Just fat molecules to make your organs and nerves function properly.
Personally. Totally just MHO.
But I certainly don't, myself, make fun of them.
I'm skeptical that malnutrition is common for people eating 1200 net calories, particularly for people who are reasonably active. If you have sources to suggest otherwise, that's great, but I can't really recall any talk of malnutrition when we're talking about people eating 1400-1600 gross calories (unless we're talking about a pretty extreme diet). As for getting enough protein on those calories, how much do you think people eating this many calories need? 100g of protein is very likely sufficient and is all of 400 calories, putting it around 25-33% of their daily calories (sounds reasonable to me). What's more unreasonable (in my opinion) is the people that they think need way more protein than studies show is beneficial. But either way, you could go a bit higher or lower depending on personal preference and there's room to work within that caloric allotment. Balance the rest out between fat and carbs, get fiber if you find that's beneficial for you (fiber is not beneficial for everyone), and go from there. Honestly that doesn't sound that unreasonable to me.
If we're talking 600 or 800 calories, things become much more difficult and you need to follow an incredibly restrictive diet in order to avoid problems like malnutrition, inadequate protein and the like. But 1200 net calories for a smaller person that is reasonably active? It's not that unreasonable.0 -
fiber is not beneficial for everyone
I see we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
To anyone reading this, if you are following a diet that doesn't have a minimum daily recommendation for dietary fiber, please consider another diet plan.
http://www.who.int/nutrition/publications/public_health_nut9.pdf
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/fiber/art-20043983
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002470.htm
http://fnic.nal.usda.gov/consumers/eating-health/fiber0 -
If a 1200 target has them losing weight at their desired rate (and assuming it's a reasonable rate), what's the problem?
Because, malnutrition if you do this over the long term.
If people eating 1200 are guaranteeing me that they're getting all their vitamins and minerals and fiber and sufficient protein and fat to make their bodies work, then I'm fine(ish) with it. But look at the dietary guidelines. Without a lot of supplements, it. is. TOUGH to get adequate nutrition on only 1200 calories. Sure, it's enough calories to get out of bed. But vitamins and minerals, fiber, protein? THAT"S the real reason I urge people to eat as much as possible while still losing weight at a sensible rate. There's protein and fat you need to just make your body work. Not energy to move around. Just fat molecules to make your organs and nerves function properly.
Personally. Totally just MHO.
But I certainly don't, myself, make fun of them.
I'm skeptical that malnutrition is common for people eating 1200 net calories, particularly for people who are reasonably active. If you have sources to suggest otherwise, that's great, but I can't really recall any talk of malnutrition when we're talking about people eating 1400-1600 gross calories (unless we're talking about a pretty extreme diet). As for getting enough protein on those calories, how much do you think people eating this many calories need? 100g of protein is very likely sufficient and is all of 400 calories, putting it around 25-33% of their daily calories (sounds reasonable to me). What's more unreasonable (in my opinion) is the people that they think need way more protein than studies show is beneficial. But either way, you could go a bit higher or lower depending on personal preference and there's room to work within that caloric allotment. Balance the rest out between fat and carbs, get fiber if you find that's beneficial for you (fiber is not beneficial for everyone), and go from there. Honestly that doesn't sound that unreasonable to me.
If we're talking 600 or 800 calories, things become much more difficult and you need to follow an incredibly restrictive diet in order to avoid problems like malnutrition, inadequate protein and the like. But 1200 net calories for a smaller person that is reasonably active? It's not that unreasonable.
To be honest........
I think you're the first one to say 1200net, thus a different argument than the person you quoted.....0 -
fiber is not beneficial for everyone
I see we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
To anyone reading this, if you are following a diet that doesn't have a minimum daily recommendation for dietary fiber, please consider another diet plan.
http://www.who.int/nutrition/publications/public_health_nut9.pdf
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/fiber/art-20043983
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002470.htm
http://fnic.nal.usda.gov/consumers/eating-health/fiber
Do your reading on chronic constipation and fiber intake and you'll find quite a few studies that find a higher fiber consumption exacerbates the problem. And that actually makes a lot of sense if you think about it - if there's something else causing the problem, just adding more volume is only going to make things worse.0 -
To be honest........
I think you're the first one to say 1200net, thus a different argument than the person you quoted.....
OH! is it 1200 NET? Then my bad, carry on.0 -
Do your reading on chronic constipation and fiber intake and you'll find quite a few studies that find a higher fiber consumption exacerbates the problem. And that actually makes a lot of sense if you think about it - if there's something else causing the problem, just adding more volume is only going to make things worse.
yes, highER than recommended. You said it yourself right there. This in no way discounts the minimum recommendations.0 -
To be honest........
I think you're the first one to say 1200net, thus a different argument than the person you quoted.....
I'm just assuming, but given it's MFP I'm just assuming their caloric target is net calories. I could be wrong. 0 -
To be honest........
I think you're the first one to say 1200net, thus a different argument than the person you quoted.....
OH! is it 1200 NET? Then my bad, carry on.
I was pointing that out to park, but still same point.0 -
This thread has a bunch of fancy words with no personal experience..
SO I can offer you mine...
I did p90x two years ago and was eating 900 cals a day, I was ripped an shredded at an obvious deficet, I was
at most toned and DID gain muscle..
I gained TONS of strength in a defiecit, the mass was minimal but DID happen
I was cranking a 100 pushups in a 5 min time span in multiple sets of course..0
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