Lifters who don't do TDEE- help!

CorvusCorax77

I follow 5/3/1 and been at this calorie counting thing a long time. My question is for lifters who don't do TDEE, how do you determine how many calories you burn lifting?

For more context: I joined MFP at 174 lbs- FYI the day before I gave birth I weighed 167, so 174 was huge for a non-pregnant me. I joined MFP and dutifully counted calories and used cardio to get down to 123 lbs. That was less than my eating disorder weight so I was concerned that I still didn't like how I looked. I started strength training and increased my intake. I didn't really get what bulking and cutting was- but I did eventually try to use TDEE. My goal was always to be around 16% bf and have strength. Anyways, when I did TDEE I felt myself slipping on exercise. I didn't feel "rewarded" for extra work and stopped doing little things I used to do. Anyways, it's stupid, but I just work harder if I am "rewarded" so the TDEE thing doesn't work for me. But I want to keep lifting. I have been giving myself 330 cals for 60 minute lift sessions. I'm 143 lbs, probably around 23% bf at this point. In one hour I will do the following- let's show a deadlift day for example:

Warm up- 5x 75 lbs, 5x 95 lbs, 5x115 lbs
Work set- 5x145, 3x 165, 1+x 185
Assistance set- 5 sets of 10 at 95 lbs
Hanging leg raises- 3 sets of 16
Leg abduction- 1 set of 20 on each leg with 20 lbs
Hip thrusts- 3 sets of 10 with 115 lbs
High step ups- 1 set of ten on each leg

That's relatively typical for an hour from me.

Thoughts?

BusyRaeNOTBusty

I just use MFP's numbers.

Of course that's when I'm actually counting.


Or lifting for that matter.

SnuggleSmacks

I can see how you might feel that way, and with TDEE, it's important to be consistent. Personally, I use a Bodymedia tracker so that I can directly see how my activity affects the amount I'm able to eat. It will motivate me to take a walk at night just to get a check mark on my Bodymedia app showing I hit my goal. It will have me jogging so I can have a 90 calorie Twix mini ice cream bar before bed. The impact of my actions is direct, immediate, and visible, and I find that very motivating. Have you thought about investing in a tracker of some sort?

meshashesha2012

either an HRM (which might be more accurate if you pause during rest breaks) or logging the workout time under the "strength training" option under cardio section

CorvusCorax77

Oh wow. MFP will only give me 200 calories for an hour of lifting. Could that be right?? That doesn't make me want to keep lifting! Lol! I can burn that much running for 20 minutes!

SnuggleSmacks

Lifting doesn't burn as many calories as you might wish. Think about your heart rate...do you normally maintain a heart rate that is in your zone 2 or 3 while lifting? Unless you're doing aerobics with dumbbells, probably not.

usmcmp

Oh wow. MFP will only give me 200 calories for an hour of lifting. Could that be right?? That doesn't make me want to keep lifting! Lol! I can burn that much running for 20 minutes!

Lifting helps preserve lean mass, meaning as you lose weight more of it is fat. In the long run you'll have to lose less weight.

echofm1

Oh wow. MFP will only give me 200 calories for an hour of lifting. Could that be right?? That doesn't make me want to keep lifting! Lol! I can burn that much running for 20 minutes!

That's totally right, or pretty close. Weight lifting doesn't burn much for calories, but the extra muscle mass gives you "hidden" calories since muscle consumes more energy throughout the day. This gives you a bit more leeway room if you snack a little, or can help facilitate weight loss if that's your goal. The main motivation for lifting isn't calorie burn, but rather the fact that you look bangin' with all your sexy muscle. It's definitely worth it, even if the calorie reward isn't super great.

SnuggleSmacks

Also, building up muscle will make you look great once you get rid of the fat.

heybales

Oh wow. MFP will only give me 200 calories for an hour of lifting. Could that be right?? That doesn't make me want to keep lifting! Lol! I can burn that much running for 20 minutes!

That entry for Strength Training is based on sets and rests of 1-3 min in lab.

And indeed, compared to cardio, it's not as high.

But confirm you count the rests too, since that's already factored in. But don't count warmup/cooldown and stretching time, obviously not waiting for equipment or talking time.

What I've done in the gym is keep track of how long it really takes to do a certain workout without interruptions at all - and that becomes the calorie burn for that routine going forward.
If I get interrupted or have to wait and it takes longer, I already know now how much it burns.

What's not included in that though is the higher metabolism for 24-36 hrs during the repair process. Just don't kill it!

heybales

Oh wow. MFP will only give me 200 calories for an hour of lifting. Could that be right?? That doesn't make me want to keep lifting! Lol! I can burn that much running for 20 minutes!

If that causes your eating level to be too low because there is so little to eat back - you may indeed have to tack some intense as you can get cardio on the end of a session.

But do remember the weight loss is from the diet.
Exercise helps the diet by increasing what you burn that day, so when you eat less hopefully it still feels like enough.
Otherwise lifting helps retain that muscle mass - which you'll want the effects of that sooner and later.

CorvusCorax77

Oh wow. MFP will only give me 200 calories for an hour of lifting. Could that be right?? That doesn't make me want to keep lifting! Lol! I can burn that much running for 20 minutes!

If that causes your eating level to be too low because there is so little to eat back - you may indeed have to tack some intense as you can get cardio on the end of a session.

But do remember the weight loss is from the diet.
Exercise helps the diet by increasing what you burn that day, so when you eat less hopefully it still feels like enough.
Otherwise lifting helps retain that muscle mass - which you'll want the effects of that sooner and later.

I try to do HIIT, but usually I hit a wall where I can't maintain a good diet, lifting, and HIIT.

I probably just need to eat less.

projhex

I do TDEE, but I don't even try to count calories used during weight lifting. There really is no point. A long lifting session might at most burn 200 calories, but probably doesn't even burn that many.

It's really an insignificant amount and not worth trying to track.

kelly_e_montana

You say you are following 5/3/1 and want to be 16% body fat and have strength. Are you a power lifter? If so, I think you may have two goals that are less than optimally compatible. For example, you might want to read some of Strongwoman Alanna Casey's articles about why she is not shredded or Norwegian power lifter Marte Elverum's posts about the same topic. If you are body builder, get off 5/3/1 and do a different program.

All I mean by this specifically is that in power lifting, you think of food as fuel for your workouts, not your workouts as a way to get rid of food calories. Sure, some power lifters are small and some are even shredded, but most eat in a way that allows them to be healthy and move the most weight.

coretemp

After tweaking the custom MFP goal settings to get as close as possible to the macro percentages I want to work with, I then input 500 cals for 60 minutes of 5x5 which covers calorie burn + a surplus for recovery. I also have a little note in the edit box below outlining the exact macro percentages to shoot for and towards the end of the day adjust accordingly. I have one note for a rest day and another note for a workout day.

The custom MFP macro levels are a little below what I want to work with (can only adjust in 5% increments and prefer to set it under) so I hit all those levels and then go over to match the levels in my notes. Sometimes I eat more, sometimes less. It doesn't take very long to see if your gaining, maintaining or losing by this method.

CorvusCorax77

You say you are following 5/3/1 and want to be 16% body fat and have strength. Are you a power lifter? If so, I think you may have two goals that are less than optimally compatible. For example, you might want to read some of Strongwoman Alanna Casey's articles about why she is not shredded or Norwegian power lifter Marte Elverum's posts about the same topic. If you are body builder, get off 5/3/1 and do a different program.

All I mean by this specifically is that in power lifting, you think of food as fuel for your workouts, not your workouts as a way to get rid of food calories. Sure, some power lifters are small and some are even shredded, but most eat in a way that allows them to be healthy and move the most weight.

I'm not a body builder. I consider myself a power lifter. That being said, I didn't get on this kick to be fat. I want to find the balance where my work outs are still strong, but I'm losing fat.

You know..... A "cut"....
Because I was in a good place and I didn't maintain, I got fatter.

And knowing how much I burn is important in finding that balance.

CorvusCorax77

I do TDEE, but I don't even try to count calories used during weight lifting. There really is no point. A long lifting session might at most burn 200 calories, but probably doesn't even burn that many.

It's really an insignificant amount and not worth trying to track.

This is an entirely new concept to me. Maybe I'll work on lowering what "credit" I give myself for lifting. I have my daily goal set to 1200 plus exercise calories so I don't think I should eliminate credit for it all together. When I was doing TDEE -20%, I was set at 1700.

CorvusCorax77

I can see how you might feel that way, and with TDEE, it's important to be consistent. Personally, I use a Bodymedia tracker so that I can directly see how my activity affects the amount I'm able to eat. It will motivate me to take a walk at night just to get a check mark on my Bodymedia app showing I hit my goal. It will have me jogging so I can have a 90 calorie Twix mini ice cream bar before bed. The impact of my actions is direct, immediate, and visible, and I find that very motivating. Have you thought about investing in a tracker of some sort?

I have heard HRMs will largely underestimate your calorie burn from lifting.

dbmata

I do TDEE, but I don't even try to count calories used during weight lifting. There really is no point. A long lifting session might at most burn 200 calories, but probably doesn't even burn that many.

It's really an insignificant amount and not worth trying to track.

This is an entirely new concept to me. Maybe I'll work on lowering what "credit" I give myself for lifting. I have my daily goal set to 1200 plus exercise calories so I don't think I should eliminate credit for it all together. When I was doing TDEE -20%, I was set at 1700.

Why would you vlcd while also try to increase in strength? Is the logic that, due to discipline issues when TDEE -20%, that a more drastic position will result in better adherence?

CorvusCorax77

After tweaking the custom MFP goal settings to get as close as possible to the macro percentages I want to work with, I then input 500 cals for 60 minutes of 5x5 which covers calorie burn + a surplus for recovery. I also have a little note in the edit box below outlining the exact macro percentages to shoot for and towards the end of the day adjust accordingly. I have one note for a rest day and another note for a workout day.

The custom MFP macro levels are a little below what I want to work with (can only adjust in 5% increments and prefer to set it under) so I hit all those levels and then go over to match the levels in my notes. Sometimes I eat more, sometimes less. It doesn't take very long to see if your gaining, maintaining or losing by this method.

So you focus on hitting macros and add 500 calories for the session. Macros are an important topic- I only focus on protein and shoot for 112 grams a day. That's another reason I need to add calories into my day- as a vegetarian, getting that much protein on few calories is really hard.

CorvusCorax77

I do TDEE, but I don't even try to count calories used during weight lifting. There really is no point. A long lifting session might at most burn 200 calories, but probably doesn't even burn that many.

It's really an insignificant amount and not worth trying to track.

This is an entirely new concept to me. Maybe I'll work on lowering what "credit" I give myself for lifting. I have my daily goal set to 1200 plus exercise calories so I don't think I should eliminate credit for it all together. When I was doing TDEE -20%, I was set at 1700.

Why would you vlcd while also try to increase in strength? Is the logic that, due to discipline issues when TDEE -20%, that a more drastic position will result in better adherence?

I don't see myself as doing a vlcd. My baseline goal is 1200, but with the amount of activity I do and give myself credit for, I usually end up around 1600-1800 a day. When my TDEE was calculated, it was based on the activity level I did while earning exercise calories. When I switched to eating based on TDEE, I ended up gaining weight (25 lbs of it!). My only explanation for the gain was absent the reward and the actual tracking of my exercise, I must have started doing less. I know I did less. I still did my lifting routine, but I would cut corners elsewhere but still eat based on what I had calculated to be my allowance under TDEE.

This is why I switched back to having a low baseline, but eating exercise calories. But it creates the problem of having to guess how much I burn lifting. I got the 300 calories number actually from a calculator on bodybuilding.com. I have been using that as my number and using 1200 as my baseline. With my walk to and from the gym, and other daily activity, I usually have about 1600-1700 calories allowed per day- matching my TDEE-20% allowance. But the weight has been slow to come off.... Which is why I ask what other do.

Also, for those who might need to know this, I don't expect my ORMs to go up on a cut. My strength goal is to maintain them while lowering my body weight. When I get to the bf I want, and I understand how to control my body, I will do bulk and cut cycles to increase strength.

coretemp

After tweaking the custom MFP goal settings to get as close as possible to the macro percentages I want to work with, I then input 500 cals for 60 minutes of 5x5 which covers calorie burn + a surplus for recovery. I also have a little note in the edit box below outlining the exact macro percentages to shoot for and towards the end of the day adjust accordingly. I have one note for a rest day and another note for a workout day.

The custom MFP macro levels are a little below what I want to work with (can only adjust in 5% increments and prefer to set it under) so I hit all those levels and then go over to match the levels in my notes. Sometimes I eat more, sometimes less. It doesn't take very long to see if your gaining, maintaining or losing by this method.

So you focus on hitting macros and add 500 calories for the session. Macros are an important topic- I only focus on protein and shoot for 112 grams a day. That's another reason I need to add calories into my day- as a vegetarian, getting that much protein on few calories is really hard.

I keep my protein constantly at 144g or above, rarely go under - it's the fat and carbs that get tweaked the most (more carbs on a workout day). Here's an example of some of my general notes. I have learned to just get a better feel for things within a general guideline...

Fat - 54g (23%) + Carb - 266g (50%) + Pro - 144 (27%)
^ Bulk Rest Day @ 175 lbs. (2130 + DExp + 250)

---

Fat - 55g (21%) + Carb - 327g (55%) + Pro - 144g (24%)
^ Bulk Lift Day @ 175 lbs. (2130 + DExp + 250 + 250)

p.s. I'm set at the sedentary level so I can add fitness, activity levels, etc. as required instead of using a TDEE assumption.

dbmata

I don't see myself as doing a vlcd. My baseline goal is 1200, but with the amount of activity I do and give myself credit for, I usually end up around 1600-1800 a day. When my TDEE was calculated, it was based on the activity level I did while earning exercise calories. When I switched to eating based on TDEE, I ended up gaining weight (25 lbs of it!). My only explanation for the gain was absent the reward and the actual tracking of my exercise, I must have started doing less. I know I did less. I still did my lifting routine, but I would cut corners elsewhere but still eat based on what I had calculated to be my allowance under TDEE.

This is why I switched back to having a low baseline, but eating exercise calories. But it creates the problem of having to guess how much I burn lifting. I got the 300 calories number actually from a calculator on bodybuilding.com. I have been using that as my number and using 1200 as my baseline. With my walk to and from the gym, and other daily activity, I usually have about 1600-1700 calories allowed per day- matching my TDEE-20% allowance. But the weight has been slow to come off.... Which is why I ask what other do.

Also, for those who might need to know this, I don't expect my ORMs to go up on a cut. My strength goal is to maintain them while lowering my body weight. When I get to the bf I want, and I understand how to control my body, I will do bulk and cut cycles to increase strength.

Interesting, I see the logic. I would say though, as has been said previously, lifting just isn't going to juice your number up a big count. I don't count most of my lifting sessions personally, and when I did, it correlated with a period where my weight inched up.

Now, I only count a session if it is with my trainer, as he has me on this hour of hell circuit that's far too bananas to be treated as one of my normal lifting sessions.

Now, I would also mention that it seems your proposed methodology has a lot of moving parts, and moving parts are complicated. Do you want that daily complication? Will it work with the type of person you are? That would be my question overall at this point.

usmcmp

As someone who has done bodybuilding and powerlifting I can tell you that it is much easier to cut while on a bodybuilding program. I had to do much more cardio to make up for the longer rest sessions and lower volume of a strength program. I have used a heart rate monitor for both types of programming and the bodybuilding program kept my heart rate much higher through the session.

Not trying to get you to switch programming, but at some point in training most people should do a hypertrophy cycle as well as a strength cycle.

BusyRaeNOTBusty

As someone who has done bodybuilding and powerlifting I can tell you that it is much easier to cut while on a bodybuilding program. I had to do much more cardio to make up for the longer rest sessions and lower volume of a strength program. I have used a heart rate monitor for both types of programming and the bodybuilding program kept my heart rate much higher through the session.

Not trying to get you to switch programming, but at some point in training most people should do a hypertrophy cycle as well as a strength cycle.

Interesting.

kelly_e_montana

I maintain on 2700 and I do very little cardio. I can't even imagine lifting on 1200. I would eat a car on the way home from the gym.

CorvusCorax77

As someone who has done bodybuilding and powerlifting I can tell you that it is much easier to cut while on a bodybuilding program. I had to do much more cardio to make up for the longer rest sessions and lower volume of a strength program. I have used a heart rate monitor for both types of programming and the bodybuilding program kept my heart rate much higher through the session.

Not trying to get you to switch programming, but at some point in training most people should do a hypertrophy cycle as well as a strength cycle.

So there have been times when my assistance work would be done kind of like a WOD. I would pick three lifts, do about 50% ORM and pump out ten of each with no rests, then rest like 30 second and so my next set. I would do five sets total. I also would do bear complexes- is this what a bodybuilding routine looks like?

CorvusCorax77

I maintain on 2700 and I do very little cardio. I can't even imagine lifting on 1200. I would eat a car on the way home from the gym.

That's awesome!

My body doesn't seem to work like that. I tried to focus on raising ORMs and eating more- when I started my body fat was 19% now it's 23%. My goal is to be strong, but "strong" can also be a function of body weight- for example, I did pull ups no problem at 123 lbs. when I got up to 145, pull ups were a lot harder. I can do them now at 143 so obviously I'm "stronger" in terms of how much weight I can pullup, but if I were 135 lbs without losing LBM, I bet I could do more pull-ups in a row....

janatarnhem

Bump for reference! Stil taking it all in!

beertrollruss

I'm like you Corvus, I like to be rewarded when I work out. I eat my exercise calories. I do legs on Sundays and I found out I need to overeat on those days or else I'm too depleted. I use MFP's estimates for calories burned. I've used a heart monitor from time to time and MFP's estimates are close enough. I'm trying to lose weight gradually. I have MFP set to lose a half a pound a week. I lift 4 days a week. I log almost every activity including light house work and guitar practice. Each week, I average about 700 to 1000 calories per week over my calories and I'm losing weight. For me, consistent logging helps me figure out what works and what doesn't.

azymth99

How many calories you burn really doesn't matter. You lift to build muscles, get stronger, tone etc. The benefits of lifting go far beyond how many calories you burn while doing it. Lifting raises your metabolism and you will burn more calories the rest of the day than you would if you didn't lift. If you really want to track it, get a HRM or an activity tracker and see how many calories you burn while you workout. But don't be disappointed when its not a lot.

Lift for the sake of Lifting.