Are you weak without meat??

BarbieAS

So, without getting into the ethical debates too much, and going back to the OP....

Last week I went vegan for 3 days (it was almost nearly raw vegan, but I did have some olive oil and some nut butters, and I'm not sure what the exact definition of "raw vegan" is and I honestly don't care enough to figure it out, so I don't want to overstep - basically, raw fruits and vegetables plus a very small amount of nuts/nut butters, olive oil, vinegar, and flaxseed meal). I actually had zero expectations for the result, it was primarily just an experiment/personal test of my own willpower. (It was supposed to be a smoothie thing, but I caved by lunchtime on day 1 and ended up eating a salad, lolol. :laugh:) I learned 2 things: 1) I did feel pretty good by the end. I don't know if I noticed anything significant beyond a marked reduction in abdominal bloating (I'll let your own minds work out the cause for that:indifferent:), but I came out of it with the idea that if I ever decided to go vegan I could probably do it. 2) I WAS FRICKING STARVING. I ate the same number of calories that I usually do, and by the end of each day I felt like I could eat everything I had eaten that day all over again. I need protein to make it through my day. Granted, by doing it "raw" I was missing out on a lot of the most significant vegan protein sources, but still - I don't think that a couple servings of beans and quinoa would have cut it. So, sorry, little chickens and pigs. For now, it's not for me. :frown:

micheleb15

So, without getting into the ethical debates too much, and going back to the OP....

Last week I went vegan for 3 days (it was almost nearly raw vegan, but I did have some olive oil and some nut butters, and I'm not sure what the exact definition of "raw vegan" is and I honestly don't care enough to figure it out, so I don't want to overstep - basically, raw fruits and vegetables plus a very small amount of nuts/nut butters, olive oil, vinegar, and flaxseed meal). I actually had zero expectations for the result, it was primarily just an experiment/personal test of my own willpower. (It was supposed to be a smoothie thing, but I caved by lunchtime on day 1 and ended up eating a salad, lolol. :laugh:) I learned 2 things: 1) I did feel pretty good by the end. I don't know if I noticed anything significant beyond a marked reduction in abdominal bloating (I'll let your own minds work out the cause for that:indifferent:), but I came out of it with the idea that if I ever decided to go vegan I could probably do it. 2) I WAS FRICKING STARVING. I ate the same number of calories that I usually do, and by the end of each day I felt like I could eat everything I had eaten that day all over again. I need protein to make it through my day. Granted, by doing it "raw" I was missing out on a lot of the most significant vegan protein sources, but still - I don't think that a couple servings of beans and quinoa would have cut it. So, sorry, little chickens and pigs. For now, it's not for me. :frown:

Just curious - were you eating the same amount of protein that you would if you were eating meat or no?

BarbieAS

So, without getting into the ethical debates too much, and going back to the OP....

Last week I went vegan for 3 days (it was almost nearly raw vegan, but I did have some olive oil and some nut butters, and I'm not sure what the exact definition of "raw vegan" is and I honestly don't care enough to figure it out, so I don't want to overstep - basically, raw fruits and vegetables plus a very small amount of nuts/nut butters, olive oil, vinegar, and flaxseed meal). I actually had zero expectations for the result, it was primarily just an experiment/personal test of my own willpower. (It was supposed to be a smoothie thing, but I caved by lunchtime on day 1 and ended up eating a salad, lolol. :laugh:) I learned 2 things: 1) I did feel pretty good by the end. I don't know if I noticed anything significant beyond a marked reduction in abdominal bloating (I'll let your own minds work out the cause for that:indifferent:), but I came out of it with the idea that if I ever decided to go vegan I could probably do it. 2) I WAS FRICKING STARVING. I ate the same number of calories that I usually do, and by the end of each day I felt like I could eat everything I had eaten that day all over again. I need protein to make it through my day. Granted, by doing it "raw" I was missing out on a lot of the most significant vegan protein sources, but still - I don't think that a couple servings of beans and quinoa would have cut it. So, sorry, little chickens and pigs. For now, it's not for me. :frown:

Just curious - were you eating the same amount of protein that you would if you were eating meat or no?

Heavens no - that was the problem. Obviously what I eat varies day-to-day, but on a totally average typical day, I eat in the range of 1500-1600 calories and get 80-100 or so grams of protein. On the 3 days I did the vegan thing, I was getting 30-35 grams of protein while staying in the same calorie range. Like I said, I acknowledge that I had excluded some of the main vegan protein sources (beans, protein-heavy grains, soy, etc). But, when you take into account the protein to calorie/carb ratios of those foods, I don't believe I could eat enough of those protein sources to feel satisfied while also meeting my fat and micronutrient goals AND staying in my calorie goal. It would certainly be a struggle. And, considering that I was consuming a ton of fat, water, and fiber in those 3 days, in terms of satiety protein is really the only missing piece. (Edit to add: I don't believe that I PERSONALLY could do it - I'm certainly not saying anything about what anyone else does, I just don't believe that it would work for ME.)

Warchortle

I like to think peas scream for their lives as I munch on them.

micheleb15

So, without getting into the ethical debates too much, and going back to the OP....

Last week I went vegan for 3 days (it was almost nearly raw vegan, but I did have some olive oil and some nut butters, and I'm not sure what the exact definition of "raw vegan" is and I honestly don't care enough to figure it out, so I don't want to overstep - basically, raw fruits and vegetables plus a very small amount of nuts/nut butters, olive oil, vinegar, and flaxseed meal). I actually had zero expectations for the result, it was primarily just an experiment/personal test of my own willpower. (It was supposed to be a smoothie thing, but I caved by lunchtime on day 1 and ended up eating a salad, lolol. :laugh:) I learned 2 things: 1) I did feel pretty good by the end. I don't know if I noticed anything significant beyond a marked reduction in abdominal bloating (I'll let your own minds work out the cause for that:indifferent:), but I came out of it with the idea that if I ever decided to go vegan I could probably do it. 2) I WAS FRICKING STARVING. I ate the same number of calories that I usually do, and by the end of each day I felt like I could eat everything I had eaten that day all over again. I need protein to make it through my day. Granted, by doing it "raw" I was missing out on a lot of the most significant vegan protein sources, but still - I don't think that a couple servings of beans and quinoa would have cut it. So, sorry, little chickens and pigs. For now, it's not for me. :frown:

Just curious - were you eating the same amount of protein that you would if you were eating meat or no?

Heavens no - that was the problem. Obviously what I eat varies day-to-day, but on a totally average typical day, I eat in the range of 1500-1600 calories and get 80-100 or so grams of protein. On the 3 days I did the vegan thing, I was getting 30-35 grams of protein while staying in the same calorie range. Like I said, I acknowledge that I had excluded some of the main vegan protein sources (beans, protein-heavy grains, soy, etc). But, when you take into account the protein to calorie/carb ratios of those foods, I don't believe I could eat enough of those protein sources to feel satisfied while also meeting my fat and micronutrient goals AND staying in my calorie goal. It would certainly be a struggle. And, considering that I was consuming a ton of water and fiber in those 3 days, in terms of satiety protein is really the only missing piece. (Edit to add: I don't believe that I PERSONALLY could do it - I'm certainly not saying anything about what anyone else does, I just don't believe that it would work for ME.)

Our calorie intakes are very similar - I am around 1600 and my protein goal is set at 94, I am usually around 80-90. You are very right in your assessment about carbs v protein. My carbs are always over because of the sources of my protein. I can't imagine that I could ever get my macros in line without eating tofu and meat replacements (which I won't).

ironanimal

Legit question for vegans; are there any plant sources for Creatine?

Sarauk2sf

Legit question for vegans; are there any plant sources for Creatine?

Not in 'food'...not for vegetarians either (or at least, not in any viable amounts). That is the one thing that actually can make a difference to strength, but is easily supplemented. However, most meat eaters will not get optimal levels of creatine and would need to supplement to be maximally beneficial.

fheppy

having gone through various phases of being vegetarian and vegan and omnivorous (currently omnivorous) I would say that my body functions at its best on an omnivorous diet.

Elementary school biology class comes to my mind. First, we learnt about plants, then animals, then humans. When we learnt about animals, the most memorable lesson was when we "looked" at animals' teeth. By the shape of the teeth, you can come to know about their diet. Human teeth are similar to pigs' teeth, these are called omnivorous teeth. It means whatever we eat, we can survive on it, our body adapted the lifestyle successfully over many thousands of years.

ironanimal

Legit question for vegans; are there any plant sources for Creatine?

Not in 'food'...not for vegetarians either (or at least, not in any viable amounts). That is the one thing that actually can make a difference to strength, but is easily supplemented. However, most meat eaters will not get optimal levels of creatine and would need to supplement to be maximally beneficial.

That's why I thought of it, since low Creatine vs. Optimal is noticable very immediately.

Ah well, thanks Sara.

losingforgood120

I trust that all you vegans don't go around sporting iphones and nike shoes, because humans are getting exploited much worse to make these products than a cow getting milked is exploited.

So I've tried to take it slow, to see at as a challenge to make a new good decision every week or so and to cut myself slack for not doing everything at once.

There's a quote from a vegan I really liked- "don't do nothing because you can't do everything, do something." ... I don't know if that's the exact wording but anyway... I really appreciated that. It can be overwhelming facing the problems of the world. Sounds like you are doing something. :flowerforyou:

Sarauk2sf

Legit question for vegans; are there any plant sources for Creatine?

Not in 'food'...not for vegetarians either (or at least, not in any viable amounts). That is the one thing that actually can make a difference to strength, but is easily supplemented. However, most meat eaters will not get optimal levels of creatine and would need to supplement to be maximally beneficial.

That's why I thought of it, since low Creatine vs. Optimal is noticable very immediately.

Ah well, thanks Sara.

Welcome!

Everyone, including meat eaters, usually benefit from creatine re performance, however, vegetarians need more of a 'top up' for max benefits. The general recommendation for meat eaters is 5g daily. I cannot recall where, but I saw (from a source I consider reliable) that vegetarians should take that up to 7g daily.

Anecdotally, when I started taking creatine, I retained water on the high end of the 'usual' range (at least 5lb) , which is indicative of my levels being low before. I cannot say how much impact it had on strength though as I started taking it about the same time I started a bulk, so I saw strength gains for a higher calorie intake at the same time. Made tracking my bulk weight trend interesting!

Meerataila

There's a quote from a vegan I really liked- "don't do nothing because you can't do everything, do something." ... I don't know if that's the exact wording but anyway... I really appreciated that. It can be overwhelming facing the problems of the world. Sounds like you are doing something. :flowerforyou:

Good philosophy. And not just when it comes to food.

RosanaRosanaDana

Watch the video Forks Over Knifes. It will give you the strength you need to accomplish your goal.

joepage612

to the person who said iphones and nikes exploit people:
Not all vegans care about animals. or other people. Some vegans think animal stuff is unhealthy and are thus vegan for no other reason.

juice_warrior

I do not think that we will become weak without meat. We can get all the fat and protein from other stuffs, such as fruits and vegetables, or even eggs. I believe that with a balance diet we can have enough power and strength to do our activity. Enough nutrition from fruits and veggies are the best think ever! I am a believer that meat should not be the hero in the plate, but fruit and veggies. During my busy time I tend to just grab my Juice Plus capsule that able to give me enough fruit and veggie consumption per day. Have you guys tried Juice Plus before? As a user, I can say it is super amazing product!

MississippiMama87

It really hurts my feelings when I see how animals are being slaughtered for us to eat. SO after seeing a video/documentary, etc I wouldn't eat meat for a few days.. But after that, I'm back to eating it again. I feel like my body needs meat b/c I feel really weak if I had not eaten meat after a couple of days.(snip)

You don't need meat and a lack of meat won't make you feel weak. I just ran 3.5 miles yesterday and haven't eaten meat in two years. I'm okay. A vegetarian diet is healthy and you can get the nutrients you need without meat including iron and protein. Beans and tofu are good sources, (snip)

I hope this doesn't come across as condescending, but you are both "right".

So too are those on whichever side of the fence they find themselves on (based on their personal "beliefs") regarding the "morality" of (or of not) eating meat. There are few "certainties" in the diet world, but one of which I'm pretty confident is that I (or anyone else) is not likely to "convince" anyone that "my" point of view is correct and their's is wrong. As a result, I prefer to spend the time I save by not doing so focused on the "science" rather than the "ideology".

It's absolutely true that you "don't NEED meat..." - millions of people have existed for thousands of years never a morsel of meat having passed their lips.

It's equally true, however, that you DO need many of the nutritive components (including "fats" and each of the Omega 3 components ALA, EPA, and DHA. It's also true that "some" (maybe even "most") of the missing components CAN be found in alternative foods and while that's important and good to know, I personally couldn't care less that tofu can. For me, I'd rather eat cardboard, but it "works" for others and that's just fine.

The whole "fats" issue (as in USDA recommended Food Pyramid, "low fat" diets, and the CICO "theories") are ones that have gone largely unquestioned since being deemed "conventional wisdom" in the 1970's. Too often ignored, however, is the simple "fact" that since adoption and widespread acceptance, obesity, diabetes, cardio, and many other often "terminal" diseases have been on a dramatic and steady rise.

Direct "cause and effect" has yet to be "proven" - conclusively, although scientific documentation (by way of "clinical" studies) is getting closer to doing so day by day. Much of the "research" goes back many decades (including some back to the 1800's and early 1900's. Many would argue that much of it has been either simply "ignored", "dismissed out of hand", or intentionally "suppressed" by those with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. That's a "political" and economic discussion for another day but one for which considerable support and "evidence" exists for those willing to invest the time to "uncover" it.

That the body "needs" specific nutrients though, is "science"- not ideology. It's the percentages of each that's in question, not the "fact" that they are needed.

IMO, if you are "substituting" carbs for meats (in an attempt to "replace" the missing nutrients) you are dealing yourself a deck that is NOT stacked in your favor. The human species existed for 10's of thousands of years on what your Grandma would have called a "balanced" diet that included foods from each of the "food groups" (which had yet to be defined as such). She (and indeed the entire "medical" and "dietary" communities) just "knew" that bread and potatoes "made you fat" and "processed" foods (when they came to exist), "just aren't healthy for you".

She limited (but probably didn't completely eliminate) your intake of the "bad" foods, tried her best to get you to "...eat your vegetables", and proudly proclaimed that she would never eat anything that contained "stuff I can't pronounce."

History has pretty much "proven" that Grandma "knew best" (and the politicians, current "experts", and mega "food" corps, DO NOT - or at least don't "care").

One need only be willing to examine the "results" of the "common wisdom", OR find an alternative (and scientifically documented) explanation for the disastrous "results" (in terms of obesity, disease, etc) produced by the "experiment" in low fat / high carb diets that has been forced on the public since the 1970's.

I'm not now, and never had "advocated" for any specific "diet" (especially any of the "fad diets"). I am though, beginning to seriously question what I've always been "led to believe" is the "best" (and most current) "conventional wisdom" when it comes to diet and nutrition. The more research and questioning I do though, the more I'm coming to believe that "low fat/high carb" diets (in the proportions dictated by the pyramid and blindly adopted by so many) are the PROBLEM and not the SOLUTION.

It is, of course, for each to "decide" on their own what is "best" for them. Doing so after having evaluating ALL the "evidence" is (IMO) the ONLY way one does themselves justice. "Myth", "dogma", anecdote, and conventional "wisdom" - don't quality as "evidence", "science" DOES.

"Diet" and "Nutrition" are (or at least IMO, should be), SCIENCE - NOT "ideology" or "religion".

Cheezus at the "quotes." I don't think you're doing it right. That was painful to read.