Juicing or Ketogenic?

EcstasyOfAgony

I'm north of 350 and looking to lose a lot; my short term goal is 280 by the end of the year, because that's the cutoff for horseback riding around here and I haven't done that in almost 10 years. Miss it!

Anyway, I've experimented with both Juicing (a la sick fat and nearly dead) and ketogenic/atkins diets in the last year. I didn't make it past 2 weeks with either, I know my willpower is ****, whatever. I am going to try again though, and also try to keep up a workout regiment with it. I want to really commit myself to one of these approaches but I can't tell which will yield greater loss faster. Go ahead and tell me 2 lbs./week is the recommended speed of loss, I don't care, I've researched it and there are no direct health problems linked to losing weight as fast as 5 or even 10 lbs a week, as long as it's done through a calorie deficiency and exercise but malnutrition and hydration are avoided. I don't care about that limit, I'm not scared of it and I don't worry about it, if I start pissing blood obviously I'll go to a doctor but I don't intend to malnourish myself even if I do take an extreme deficiency in caloric intake.

First Question: What should I use? I know juicing is fast but the plants you use are so full of carbohydrates, and one of the things I like in reading about ketogenic diets is how they force the body to burn its stored fat cells by not giving it easily accessible carb fuel. Even while doing atkins I felt a change in my level of hunger (which I know for a fact was from carb denial), but also a drop in my energy. But I wasn't hungry and overall fairly satisfied. The problem is my "eat" button was on and since I was eating anyway it was easy to convince myself a little bit of carbs here and there wouldn't hurt, and before you knew it I blew it. Juicing was a much more miserable process, in terms of hunger, but after a few days I stopped being hungry and only had to worry about the temptation to taste normal food again, and the annoyance of constantly blending and such. Really prep is a pain for both because there's no quick and easy food solutions around here that conform to either diet; we don't have a smoothie place where I am and the fast food places all use too much sugar in their sauces for meat and always bundle in carbs. Anyway, I can't decide which to do, or which is going to be stronger long term?

Whichever I choose, I'm looking to do this for about 2 months, maybe 3 at the most, (yes, juicing too, it hasn't killed anyone I know, so I'm not worried about it) - I just want an extreme kickstart to weight loss then I'm going to do something more conventional (just watching intake and balancing meals better with smaller portions, since either diet for that long will shrink my stomach a lot).

Second Question: How feasible is a cheat day for each? For a short time I experimented with a 2-3 day juicing, 1 day when I can have a meal of whatever kind (since the calories were more than made up for by the 2 or 3 days off), and I did see some loss, but a lot of fluctuation as you might imagine. For Atkins I wouldn't even think of anything more than a 1/week cheat day, if even that. I know that any carbs past the limit break ketosis, but I'm curious if anyone has made a once per week cheat day on Atkins work for them and maintained good weight loss? Would greatly appreciate the insight/story if so! As for juicing, part of my fear in doing it for a month or two (I did a liquid fast once for a month) is my system not being able to handle food when I'm ready to eat again and accidentally dying hahaha, (that one I am a little worried about). So I thought maybe as my stomach shrinks I could sneak in 1 meal every 3 days or so without going overboard but still keeping my digestive system up and running.

Anyway, sorry my post is so long, I hope someone has insights for me. I've never done anything like a forum before but I thought it might be a good place to get ideas and decide which track to follow.
Thanks!

SherryTeach

I'm wondering why, if you have failed at these two approaches to losing weight, why you think trying them again would be any different? Why not just let MFP give you a calorie goal and you fill it with a variety of delicious food?

Your proposed method breaks all of my rules for eating: Can I do this every day for the rest of my life? Is everything I"m eating delicious?

Meerataila

If you can, I recommend you go see a doctor and get a referral to a dietitian, because you have a long fight ahead of you. It could really keep you on track if you enlist some expert help in finding what to eat to keep you satisfied and give you energy for whatever physical activity you want to do.

_Waffle_

Anyway, I've experimented with both Juicing (a la sick fat and nearly dead) and ketogenic/atkins diets in the last year. I didn't make it past 2 weeks with either, I know my willpower is ****,

These are not sustainable approaches to eating healthy. You're guaranteed to fail with this approach. Just eat within your calorie goal each day.

Go ahead and tell me 2 lbs./week is the recommended speed of loss, I don't care, I've researched it and there are no direct health problems linked to losing weight as fast as 5 or even 10 lbs a week

You *Might* be able to do that for a week or two but you'll stall. Before long you'll see that losing 5 lbs. a week would require you to stop eating at all. 1-2 pounds a week is the correct way to approach this.

First Question: What should I use? I know juicing is fast but the plants you use are so full of carbohydrates, and one of the things I like in reading about ketogenic diets is how they force the body to burn its stored fat cells by not giving it easily accessible carb fuel.

Your body stores food in the liver, then in muscles and the extra gets converted to fat. It burns fat for fuel if you don't give it enough calories. There's no special magic foods to eat or avoid.

Juicing was a much more miserable process, in terms of hunger, but after a few days I stopped being hungry and only had to worry about the temptation to taste normal food again,

Again, this isn't sustainable.

Second Question: How feasible is a cheat day for each?

It happens but you shouldn't plan for one. I don't think it's a good idea to schedule them ahead of time. It happens often enough on its own.

EcstasyOfAgony

Okay, maybe I should reiterate:

Either of these options is for a 1-2 month period (starting now) for an extreme push and jumpstart. Neither of these are things I plan on doing for the rest of my life. I know that neither is sustainable forever, I can't juice forever, I like food too much, and as much as I love meat and all, going carbless for life would just suck.

I'm trying to get a jumpstart here folks, not starve myself. I recognize that it's extreme and have no delusions about maintaining that kind of diet or amount of weight loss indefinitely, I just need something to get me over the hump. Over half the time the reason I give up on various diets (including just calorie counting and doing it "the normal way," which I've tried more than once, and had less success with than the "extreme" options I'm being told are untenable) is because I didn't see enough results fast enough, and it became easy to convince myself nothing was going to change, so why not eat whatever? I just want to power through a month or two of really strong weight loss, then keep going in a more traditional way based off that initial inertia.

Does that really sounds so crazy?

itsbasschick

losing weight as fast as you want to means you'll be burning muscle, and that means that when you're done with your extra low calorie diet, your body will burn less calories than it did before.

why not start off slower - which will be healthier and more sustainable?

Mr_Knight

At that weight the OP doesn't need to worry about "burning muscle".

Just pick a caloric intake level, and eat what you want. I really doesn't matter. Try and find a combination of foods that make it least painful to stay under the limit, and stick to it.

It's not "easy", exactly, but it's not complicated, either.

chrisdavey

If they are the only options (which they aren't) I'd go ketogenic. At least you are likely to be in a deficit that way. (and possibly insulin resistant so lower carb option can be beneficial)

abadvat

losing weight as fast as you want to means you'll be burning muscle, and that means that when you're done with your extra low calorie diet, your body will burn less calories than it did before.

why not start off slower - which will be healthier and more sustainable?

At 350+ your point is off the charts - unless off course the "excess" part of the 350 is all muscles and not fat................

Tend to agree with some posts - specialist help might be an option to consider seriously.

EcstasyOfAgony

Insulin resistant? Explain please

yarwell

Insulin resistant? Explain please

Insulin resistance is when the body ignores the signalling of insulin telling it to use more glucose or release less fat etc. Believed to arise from persistently high levels of insulin over time.

yarwell

First Question: What should I use? I know juicing is fast but the plants you use are so full of carbohydrates, and one of the things I like in reading about ketogenic diets is how they force the body to burn its stored fat cells by not giving it easily accessible carb fuel.

Juicing is usually <1000 calories and hence is a form of carbohydrate restriction.

At your start weight I would go ketogenic to maximise the rate of fat loss from cells, by minimising insulin levels. No cheat days. Might take 4 weeks to get fully keto adapted you'll need to increase your salt intake. Cheat days are pointless IMHO.

I've done keto long term and a couple of separate weeks juicing.

Preparation of meals consumes time and is part of adapting to eating less and better, picking up crap in a bag from a retail outlet is what got many of us here in the first place.

7deadly

Neither- you should eat a balanced diet, over your BMR but under your TDEE and do some exercise.

Juicing and Keto are entirely inappropriate for you.
Also, make sure you see a doctor.

RodaRose

Don't do the juicing. The Keto makes more sense for you.
You really need the guidance of a professional because you are all over the map and need to develop a better plan.
And what is the big hurry? When people choose an arbitrary deadline like horseback riding, they set themselves up for frustrations.
Use intrinsic goals.

RunninGran

No it doesn’t sound crazy it sounds like me…
First off I see a lot of me in what your have posted so what I am going to say is my own observations of myself and I am posting it on the off chance that it might also apply to you but only you know if it does or not so if it doesn’t apply just ignore it and maybe it will help someone else.
I tend to have an immediate gratification issue. I am sick of being this size I am sick of not being able to do the things I use to do (I also use to horseback ride too and want to be able to do that again as well, by the way my horse could also use the exercise). I have decided to do this and so I want it to happen now I know that I am here because of my own behavior and I own that and therefore I am willing to put in whatever and sacrifice whatever it takes to get there. The problem is that I did not get here in two months so I can’t get back in two months. Where you attack the problem with food and calorie intake I tend to attack it with exercise which ended in knee surgery the last time I decided that I was tired of being overweight and unhealthy. I tore my meniscus and had hairline stress fractures from trying to do too much to fast my body just could not adapt fast enough.
I joined this site because a co-worker told me that he had read that the one thing that people that actually lost weight, the common denominator in successful weight loss was keeping a food diary. So I joined the sight for the food diary but I have found that I have gotten some things here that I did not expect. Those little tickers at the bottom of most people’s post work well for me because it is a visual. I just joined a running challenge group this morning for Aug. where I was able to set a goal for how many miles I would run in the month of Aug. I was able to set up a ticker that I can watch my progress daily. I am going on three weeks and the scales only show 1 lb lost. I have been religious about my diet and religious about my exercise but I did not get here in 3 weeks. It took me 10 years to get here so really if I get back to where I want to be by Christmas I SHOULD count myself lucky but I do have to keep telling myself how long it took me to gain the weight. The tickers are a much better way for me to monitor my success than the scale is. The scale moves to slow and it is complicated I have eaten less and exercised more and the scale hasn’t rewarded me. In the long run it will but people’s bodies are different and one person can lose 20 pounds doing less than what you are doing and you only lose 10 there are too many factors age and genetics all play a part but if I set a goal of running 40 miles in the month of August, that I have control of. It is one to one, if I run 3 miles today then my little horse will move 3 miles down my ticker. Childish? Maybe but it is immediate gratification and it works for me. I wish you luck in finding what works for you and I applaud you for accomplishing the hardest part… starting. Happy trails.

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rml_16

How about watch calories and exercise?

Eat what you want in moderation.

UsedToBeHusky

You know... you really don't have to beat yourself up if you failed at trying extreme dieting. It doesn't make you a failure because you couldn't handle the stressful conditions that you subjected your body to. Stress can cause a release of cortisol and hinder your weight loss, plus cause other health issues. You don't need to punish yourself for being fat!

It may just be that your body cannot handle that extreme of an approach and you need to just make dieting simpler. Changing just one habit at a time, portion-control, practicing moderation, or IIFYM are all good, less stressful approaches to weight loss that might actually just be a better fit for you.

WBB55

I'm gonna give this to you straight. I mean this in the most loving, supportive way possible. I don't know you, so this is just some basic advice given the info I have.

(1) read this: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1175494-a-guide-to-get-you-started-on-your-path-to-sexypants

(2) you don't need to jump start or kick start anything. What you need to do is learn how to eat reasonable portions of food. (I'm not judging, look at my profile, I used to overeat, too...)

(3) Just guessed on your height, but my guess is you need to eat 3200 calories every day to maintain your current weight. If you track and log your calories as accurately as you can, you could EASILY lose TONS of weight eating 2200-2400 calories every day. And eating that much per day? Man, you can eat a lot of food for 2200 calories.

(4) My suggestion, since you seem to want a out-of-the-box plan: Go "Primal." But track your calories as best you can. The primal theory of cutting out processed foods and decreasing/eliminating grains/starches significantly will teach you a lot of things you need to learn, but also let you eat some great food. (Note: I eat grains, so I don't personally eat Primal or Paleo.)

losingforgood120

If you can, I recommend you go see a doctor and get a referral to a dietitian, because you have a long fight ahead of you. It could really keep you on track if you enlist some expert help in finding what to eat to keep you satisfied and give you energy for whatever physical activity you want to do.

Yes, this!

I'm gonna give this to you straight. I mean this in the most loving, supportive way possible. I don't know you, so this is just some basic advice given the info I have.

(1) read this: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1175494-a-guide-to-get-you-started-on-your-path-to-sexypants

(2) you don't need to jump start or kick start anything. What you need to do is learn how to eat reasonable portions of food. (I'm not judging, look at my profile, I used to overeat, too...)

(3) Just guessed on your height, but my guess is you need to eat 3200 calories every day to maintain your current weight. If you track and log your calories as accurately as you can, you could EASILY lose TONS of weight eating 2200-2400 calories every day. And eating that much per day? Man, you can eat a lot of food for 2200 calories.

(4) My suggestion, since you seem to want a out-of-the-box plan: Go "Primal." But track your calories as best you can. The primal theory of cutting out processed foods and decreasing/eliminating grains/starches significantly will teach you a lot of things you need to learn, but also let you eat some great food. (Note: I eat grains, so I don't personally eat Primal or Paleo.)

And this!

I was thinking the same thing- if it has to be outside the box- primal/paleo at least makes it easier to get the amount of carbs/fat/protein that helps people function well. Juicing: you won't get enough fat, keto: you'll get too much. (Too much fat may help w/ appetite but not with being able to go to the bathroom. Not worth it!) A balance of the three (fat/protein/carbs) works best for most people and is SUSTAINABLE. Making sure you get fruits and vegetables for micronutrients and fiber.... you'll be good! Most important to weight loss is getting a calorie deficit and eating foods that you enjoy. You can do it.

Dogwalkingirl

I have been where you are. I have wanted to lose weight quickly and I have NO patience (in really any aspect of my life) so losing a 1lb a week gets frustrating sometimes. However, you want to know what is more frustrating? Losing 10lbs quickly...feeling over the moon and then gaining 15lbs back. It will be a cycle (I promise) if you do things like that.

Food is fuel for your body and you need to learn what is good for you to eat...how much of it you really need and you have to move more. We are not on this forum to bash you (well maybe some are) it is just that most of us know these quick fixes simply do not work. We know because we have been there. I still struggle a lot and I wish I could drop my last 25lbs quickly but I know if I am going to keep it off I have to stick with my routine and lose my 1-1.5/week (If I am lucky!!)

MelRC117

I don't understand how you want to "jumpstart" or go "extreme" in your approach to losing weight but they ask about cheat days? That's so contradictory to me.

Why is it all or nothing? Why only those two? I do disagree with the person that said 1 to 2 lbs per week. They obviously don't understand that being very large you can lose 3-4, maybe 5 pounds a week by eating even 1800-2000 calories a day. You just have that much difference between a standard 2000 calorie diet and the calories you would eat to be in maintanence of your current weight. Will it slow? Absolutely. You can't keep up 5 pounds a week forever, probably not more than a few weeks before you will need to make adjustments in your expectations for weight loss.

I have done low carb (keto-ish) before and lost a lot of weight and felt great while doing it. Each week I would see loss which kept me motivated. The other thing is, it kept me FULL. Eating fat and moderate protein will do that to you. However....maybe you should just try lowER carb so you don't feel tempted to have a cheat day but keep yourself full with a diet that is higher in the fat ratio which moderate protein. Try using those keto/low carb concepts to overall cut calories...go bunless. Have a burger but no fries.

losingforgood120

Okay, maybe I should reiterate:

Either of these options is for a 1-2 month period (starting now) for an extreme push and jumpstart. Neither of these are things I plan on doing for the rest of my life. I know that neither is sustainable forever, I can't juice forever, I like food too much, and as much as I love meat and all, going carbless for life would just suck.

I'm trying to get a jumpstart here folks, not starve myself. I recognize that it's extreme and have no delusions about maintaining that kind of diet or amount of weight loss indefinitely, I just need something to get me over the hump. Over half the time the reason I give up on various diets (including just calorie counting and doing it "the normal way," which I've tried more than once, and had less success with than the "extreme" options I'm being told are untenable) is because I didn't see enough results fast enough, and it became easy to convince myself nothing was going to change, so why not eat whatever? I just want to power through a month or two of really strong weight loss, then keep going in a more traditional way based off that initial inertia.

Does that really sounds so crazy?

Doesn't sound crazy but with that weight loss you will not have LEARNED new patterns of behavior that you are going to CONTINUE. Part of the battle for me is I learned how to hit the right calorie/ macros goal everyday eating nutritious foods I can prepare, afford, and enjoy. It's really a learning curve.

Getting quick weight loss won't teach you... i guess it could motivate you. But I think in weight loss you don't need motivation, you need decision. Motivation isn't reliable enough. I personally found cleanses led to depression and binges. Just learning to eat my calories/ macro goal (through pre-logging, practice, practice, practice) led to me not needing as much motivation because it's not so hard. And it's just what I've decided to do. And it's working.

UsedToBeHusky

Okay, maybe I should reiterate:

Either of these options is for a 1-2 month period (starting now) for an extreme push and jumpstart. Neither of these are things I plan on doing for the rest of my life. I know that neither is sustainable forever, I can't juice forever, I like food too much, and as much as I love meat and all, going carbless for life would just suck.

I'm trying to get a jumpstart here folks, not starve myself. I recognize that it's extreme and have no delusions about maintaining that kind of diet or amount of weight loss indefinitely, I just need something to get me over the hump. Over half the time the reason I give up on various diets (including just calorie counting and doing it "the normal way," which I've tried more than once, and had less success with than the "extreme" options I'm being told are untenable) is because I didn't see enough results fast enough, and it became easy to convince myself nothing was going to change, so why not eat whatever? I just want to power through a month or two of really strong weight loss, then keep going in a more traditional way based off that initial inertia.

Does that really sounds so crazy?

Doesn't sound crazy but with that weight loss you will not have LEARNED new patterns of behavior that you are going to CONTINUE. Part of the battle for me is I learned how to hit the right calorie/ macros goal everyday eating nutritious foods I can prepare, afford, and enjoy. It's really a learning curve.

Getting quick weight loss won't teach you... i guess it could motivate you. But I think in weight loss you don't need motivation, you need decision. Motivation isn't reliable enough. I personally found cleanses led to depression and binges. Just learning to eat my calories/ macro goal (through pre-logging, practice, practice, practice) led to me not needing as much motivation because it's not so hard. And it's just what I've decided to do. And it's working.

This.

Here is the thing, OP. Your body acts completely separate of your desires. And just like any person, you really can't get what you want from your body if your body does not have what it needs. If you are putting your body under stress with these diets, then you are upping your cortisol. Cortisol is a hormone and defense mechanism for the body. Your body will not cooperate with weight loss. If you have already failed at these dieting methods, then they were to stressful for your body. Even doing them temporarily will cause a cortisol release, and when you finally realize that your methods will have to be more sustainable, then you will have already set yourself back due to an abundance of cortisol already in your system.

You have a lot of weight to lose. You will NOT be able to lose it as quickly as you want to. Ask anyone here. Everyone comes here wanting instant results, and EVERYBODY has either had to accept the reality that patience is required or they have completely given up.

We are simply trying to help you find a sustainable approach so that you are less likely to be one of those that completely gives up.

Delquin

I can't speak to the ketogenic dieting, but as far as juicing goes, my husband and I have tried it.

You have to remember - juicing is NOT a diet. It's a CLEANSE. It is meant to clean out your system of all the junk during a certain time period, after which you start eating healthy. Weight loss is truly just a side effect of juicing. It is not the GOAL of juicing.

We first juiced about a year ago. We decided to go for 15 days. The first few days we were extremely angry with each other. (Starvation kind of makes you pissed off.) By the end of the period, I just didn't care any more. I didn't even want to drink juice. My body just told me not to care about eating. Those last few days I would have a juice in the morning and afternoon, but then have a salad for dinner along with juice just to chew something.

My husband probably dropped 20 pounds. But losing weight has always been simple for him.

He is currently going through a juice fast now which has gone on for a couple of weeks, at least, He has dropped about 24 pounds. I know it is not something I can do again. I'm happy to make and drink some juice occasionally. But I like to eat. The 12ish days I've been here on MFP, I've lost a little over 4 pounds. No juicing. Just reducing my calorie intake. That works. And I'm not even exercising. (That's an issue I deal with.)

If you choose to juice, juice as a cleanse, not a diet. After you are done juicing, you MUST make good choices. If you eat a bunch of pizza all of the time, juice fast for two weeks and drop 20 pounds, and then start eating pizza again, all that effort from juicing will mean nothing. The pounds come right back on.

Use it as a stepping stone to better eating.

paperpudding

I don't get how juicing works as a stepping stone to better eating. Why not just start better eating?

I don't get how juicing works as a cleanse either.