Food availability in US vs. UK?

Alluminati

I've spent more time in upstate New York and Brooklyn than Manhattan. I've also spent a lot of time in Alaska (no, seriously). I honestly can't remember the specifics of where I shopped, but I remember having to take the car and drive to find anywhere that sold fresh produce. Anywhere I've lived in the UK, there's usually a small-to-mid-size supermarket within walking distance (Tesco Metro/Express, Sainsbury's Local, M&S, Little Waitrose, etc.). They are squeezing out the old corner shop/post offices, but have a far greater range of fresh food, so I'm not sorry.

How do I win the internet?

I have a doctor I visit in the Borough Park section of Brooklyn and I've seen farmers markets and fruit stands every few blocks (even purchased from some). We're you tied up to a chair in your apt? Never mind driving, there are trains and buses and cabs.

lemurcat12

I keep saying "food desserts" for some reason. I know it's "food deserts." Guess ice cream is on my mind. :-)

misskris78

Depending on where the OP is, he may be right. For example, if he's in downtown Albany, I can't think of a good place to buy groceries within walking distance, except for the Farmers Market that sets up on the plaza. Even in small cities like Glens Falls or Lake George, there are no options within walking distance of the Town Centers. Saratoga Springs is the only place I can think of between Albany and the border with a full service downtown market. If he's in the Adirondacks, he may have to drive 20, 30 or more miles to get to a grocery store. That would be because there are NO PEOPLE in the Adirondack Park!

If he's in the City, he's just not trying hard enough

We have a car centered economy, and perhaps due to the price of gas, Europeans do not; however I do agree, looking for salad fixins at a Stewart's (Seven Eleven) probably isn't going to yield great results.

Stuart107

The good news is that you can easily take taxis and people are helpful. The subway system is easy enough to navigate.
Times Trader Joes is near where you are staying. (approx 1.3 miles south of you)
Westerly Natural Market (slightly more than one half mile walk north toward the park)
Otherwise, you have to get out of Times Square to a place where people live and shop.

Thanks for that... I'll definitely look into the Trader Joe's since I've seem so many mentions on here.

weblur

Depending on where the OP is, he may be right. For example, if he's in downtown Albany, I can't think of a good place to buy groceries within walking distance, except for the Farmers Market that sets up on the plaza. Even in small cities like Glens Falls or Lake George, there are no options within walking distance of the Town Centers. Saratoga Springs is the only place I can think of between Albany and the border with a full service downtown market. If he's in the Adirondacks, he may have to drive 20, 30 or more miles to get to a grocery store. That would be because there are NO PEOPLE in the Adirondack Park

This is so true, and living here on and off my whole life I can tell you that the plaza farmers market is a relatively recent development, so if he lived here in the 80s and 90s he was sunk, at least to the best of my knowledge. We could get fresh veg in the summer in the 70s and 80s by driving to farmers' stands, but they are almost all gone now. Luckily, the farmers markets have sprouted up and are gaining ground.

I am definitely jealous of lexbubbles' description of her options for shopping, but then again I have a giant soft spot for the U.K. I really think some of the misunderstanding here is due to the difference in geography between the two nations and the longer-established village/town/city structures in the U.K.

lemurcat12

This is the part of the OP's post I disagreed with:

However, whenever I've been to the US (mostly NY), I am surprised how difficult it is to find a decent (never mind full) range of raw ingredients. Is that just my misperception, or do you actually need to go out of your way to find fresh produce in the States?

That one has to go to the grocery store vs. a 7/11 or gas station market to get produce does not mean that it's something you have to go out of your way for. Very few Americans, especially outside of major cities, probably do regular shopping at a 7/11 vs. a grocery store, so the place you'd go for normal daily or weekly shopping IS the grocery store. I don't envy a situation where you'd shop in a smaller express store instead (I can at least see why people might idealize going to the meat market and the produce store, etc. even if it would be extremely inconvenient--we still have a cute meat market I go to sometimes, but the hours make it a pain--but wanting to shop at a 7/11 or Express Walmart is something I don't see, although YMMV, obviously).

Now, stopping at the store while driving home from work doesn't seem that inconvenient to me, but since I live in a big city I neither drive to the store (unless I am buying a lot and feeling lazy) nor to work. I walk 2 blocks from my el stop to the grocery store (full size, lots of produce) and then 2 more blocks home. OR, if I want to go to Whole Foods or TJ's I detour a bit and walk a couple of extra blocks or use it as an excuse for a walk on the weekends. OR I walk to the green market or to the pick up point for my CSA box. Point is that it's not actually difficult to find fresh ingredients unless you live in a food desert (and here that's about the hassle of taking public transportation outside your neighborhood to shop and time issues, not actual inaccessibility), and I think that's supposed to be an urban issue, and does not simply refer to the fact that in some parts of the US you have to drive to go really anywhere (probably including the 7/11 or gas station mart).

cwolfman13

I live in the U.S. and have traveled extensively in this country...I've never had any issues walking into a grocery store and finding fresh produce and other raw ingredients...ever. I cook primarily from scratch, whole ingredients and this has never been a problem for me...ever.

kpbtm

I wonder if different people here have different ideas of what OP means by raw ingredients. For example, if we are talking about fresh bananas or lettuce, those are easily accessible everywhere. Fresh green beans not frozen or canned are available at a farmer's market but that requires a bit more effort than a visit to the neighborhood Safeway. Freshly killed unplucked chickens require a bit more effort.

I think we need to understand what "raw ingredients" we are discussing in order to reach any consensus.

I asked what he couldn't find, so on that we agree, although my impression is he was looking for produce in like a 7/11, where it is limited.

But the idea that fresh green beans aren't available everywhere is strange to me. I can't recall being at a supermarket as an adult that didn't have them.

Whereas here in the UK it ISN'T limited, which was exactly OPs point I believe. Access to produce is more limited in the US than the UK. Which as someone said, is probably due to relative size. We're a bit more compact over here. The idea of 'driving 10 miles' as being an acceptable for groceries is so alien.

The smaller 'express' supermarkets which are the closest we have to 7/11s still have a large range of produce. Even tiny 'corner shop' type convenience stores have a reasonable range. I've had several American friends come visit me (from San Francisco, Hartford CT and Cape Cod, respectively) all of whom comment on the increased range and availability of food in just about every shop.

I didn't see their point (or rather, fully comprehend it I guess?) until I visited the States (DC, Philadelphia, Asbury Park NJ, NYC, Boston, and Hartford CT). And, yeah, they totally had a point. Even WALMART had less food than our ASDA (which is owned by Walmart. It's... the same thing) something that was TOTALLY MIND-BLOWING to the Americans when they came here "wait, your Walmart sells all this food? This is so much food! Ours hardly has any in comparison! It's, like, ALL FOOD"

I don't think OP is saying you can't find produce anywhere. I think he's saying it's ridiculous to have to drive 10 miles for it and that unless you live in Butt**** Nowhere in the UK*, you're not going to have to go more than maaaaybe 2 or 3 miles. It's a lot easier to come by over here.

My nearest (Morrisons) is 0.3 miles. Within 2 miles of my house there are:
14 Tesco supermarkets of varying sizes
11 Sainsburys
6 Co-Op
1 very large ASDA

33 supermarkets in a 2 mile radius. 33.

(My nearest Waitrose is 4 miles away. I live in the East End of Glasgow. we're not Middle Class enough for that sort of thing. They don't want Our Type in there, thank you very much)

The other thing I find strange is people saying "well yeah OBVIOUSLY it's harder to find fresh stuff in inner-city neighbourhoods" like ???????? Over here cities are the EASIEST places to find stuff. The reason I have 33 supermarkets (any of which I could walk into to get fresh green beans) within 2 miles is BECAUSE I live in the city. It's when you get further out that the number drops to single figures.

*My best friend actually does kinda live in Butt**** Nowhere - a tiny village in Northamptonshire with 1 shop (post office/general convenience store) and 2 pubs and a population of about 1,000. The Tesco they go to is 6 miles away, but it's a Superstore. There are a few smaller ones closer by.

But the point is that NO ONE in the US expects to find produce in a 7/11. That's not what they sell, beyond maybe a banana. It's like expecting books in a shoe store. It's not comparable to an express supermarket.

Beyond that, population density and prevalence of cars is the difference. I live in a big city. Thus, I can walk to at least 4 groceries with a full produce section, quite excellent ones, plus a small Spanish market (not a great one), a meat market with some produce, and have Thursday and Saturday farmers markets in close proximity to my home also. That's not 33, but who cares, why would I want that many, sounds a pointless use of space when I'd rather shop at the full scale store that is convenient. Of course, there are more if I counted from work too. And public transportation here is pretty good. And yet still the supermarkets have good parking because plenty of Americans, even in areas like mine, prefer to drive. (You can bash this if you want, I guess.)

In other areas of the country, you can't walk to the store due to distance or lack of good walking infrastructure, but those are usually less dense areas or areas where everyone drives. Comparable to your BFN example, and yeah they'd have something in an easy driving distance just like the place you mentioned. When I was a kid we technically could have walked to the grocery--it was closer than any 7/11 equivalent other than a gas station thing--but it wouldn't have crossed anyone's mind to do so. And no one grocery shopped at the gas station, ugh.

There is an issue with food desserts some places, including in my own city, as I discussed above, but that's different than the fact that most Americans outside of major cities tend to drive (short distances usually) to the store. You are taking differences between the two countries in density and car usage and drawing ridiculous conclusions (Americans lack access to produce) from it. Fact is we are organized differently and you seem to like having lots of convenient store places to buy at whereas that doesn't appeal to me as I have a different idea of supermarkets, but the attitude that the US is thus missing out is odd. I don't expect other countries to have precisely what the US does, in the same way.

Oh and "the city" is not "inner city neighborhoods." Like I said I live in a city and it's about as far from a food dessert as you can get. There are issues with access to good supermarkets in some inner citiy areas (read, really poor areas with crime issues, etc.) here, although there is also public transportation, which are being addressed and on which progress is being made, but it's a more complicated issue than some let on. It does not mean that access to produce in the US or even US cities is limited generally.

I agree with this, particularly the bolded part above. I'll add that the OP's question was crafted poorly and the logic behind it is spurious at best. I wouldn't expect that of someone reasonably well educated and traveled, so it's frankly not unreasonable to conclude a xenophobic attitude is behind it. Take that as you like, but the only explanations I can come up with are ignorance or xenophobia, as the question is ridiculous.

Why, thank you for tearing me apart so wonderfully based on one idle question, which I never expected to kick off the sh!tstorm it did. I am fortunate to have had an excellent education, and have travelled to over 40 countries (and about 23 or 24 states in the US), but the question was simple small talk.

To answer, I think my question was based largely on ignorance (but probably some xenophobia as well). As I pointed out at some point on the second page, I hadn't considered the urban sprawl of the US as opposed to the UK. It has been some time since I was there (about 7 years, in fact), so my question was based largely on my own faint recollections after seeing a lot of American members' diaries which contained surprisingly large amounts of processed food.

I'm sorry if my "logic" was spurious (I wasn't compounding a Cartesian hypothesis, although you have taken it as such), or that you thought my question ridiculous, and I'm sorry that you took offence, as have so many others on this thread. I know for future that food imparity is a taboo subject, so thank you for that.

47Jacqueline

I'm not sure what the problem is here. I have never had trouble finding any food I want. Ever. Anywhere. In the U.S.