Carbs and DNL

Mr_Knight

Can someone dumb this down for me?

If you don't over consume calories, carbs won't make you fat.

Kevalicious99

But where are all the carb haters .. they seem awful quiet right now ? Anyone ? That's what I thought ... low / no carb is just dumb and totally unnecessary.

parkscs

Can someone dumb this down for me?

If you don't over consume calories, carbs won't make you fat.

Not at all the important takeaway point from the study, but okay.

parkscs

But where are all the carb haters .. they seem awful quiet right now ? Anyone ? That's what I thought ... low / no carb is just dumb and totally unnecessary.

Why do you think people that follow a low carb diet would be upset by this study? The study just reinforces what we've known for years about carb consumption in a glycogen depleted state - the body tends to prefer using excess carbs for glycogen storage rather than converting them to fat. Carb refeeds are a tool used by many low carb dieters who want to maintain their athletic performance (a CKD is a perfect example of such a diet) and this study just reinforces that practice, and then goes a bit further and shows that such carb refeeds can work similarly for people that aren't in a depleted state. Lyle McDonald wrote his book on ketogenic diets in what, the late 1990's (has it really been that long?), and he covers this subject in detail when discussing CKDs. And even then, Lyle was pulling from existing information sources, so this is hardly new information.

You seem to be erroneously equating low carb diets with "carb hating" - I don't know anyone that "hates carbs," but I do know many people that follow low carb diets and some who use carb refeeds to maintain their athletic performance while on such diets. I don't think you know as much about low carb diets as you think you do. The study doesn't stand for any sort of broad, sweeping conclusions involving carbs. It's an interesting little study that explores glycogen storage limits and their relation to DNL with a specific carb intake and all of 3 participants; nothing more.

chrisdavey

That figure for maximum glycogen storage at 15g/kg is a bit different to the 14-16g/kg of LBM that Lyle McDonald recommends in UD2. (well depending on BF% obviously)

I would hazard a guess that unless you are relatively lean e.g. 12% or less for a male you aren't going to notice a great difference with a higher fat intake or not while refeeding. I know of all the refeeds I've done, I think I've only been able to keep fat below 50g once. I can eat a LOT but fitting 1200g of carbs in with minimal fat (and typically at least 6L of water for rehydration) is pretty damn hard.

Cereal helps. But even that gets filling after a while

Stella_Mayfair

I'm so not that keen lately. So how many carbs a 5f6 31 year old woman, hits above her daily intake before she is storing them as fat?

yarwell

But my point in saying carbs don't make you fat.....
They don't, unless you go above CHO norms....
Which I mean for most people, you need to actually put your mind too it...
I just did two competitions a few weeks ago, and I know that on 2 days of a carb reload, consuming very little fat and prolly less than 70 gr of protein....
I had to force myself to eat the carbs...just to get near 600 gr for the day.....of course I was doing with rice and potatoes for the most part....

So if someone actually sat down and planned out their diet accordingly, focusing on carbs/protein, and making sure fat intake stayed low that day.....
They would be hard pressed to reach a saturation point whereas their bodies get actually start holding onto fat.....
Is this an incorrect thought??

But a more expanded study would be nice, I agree......

It certainly helps to consider the balance of carbs and fat separately, with DNL an "overflow" route for surplus carbs into the fat reservoir in limited circumstances. With zero fat in the diet (like the 500 g meal 1982 study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6755166) it's fairly black and white although the ingestion of carbs always turns down the oxidation of fat.

With fat in the diet as per the above study then the carbs push the dietary fat into storage as well as inhibiting oxidation of fat from reserves. This to me is why dietary carbs can make you fat, or inhibit you getting less fat.

There's a world of difference between highly active low body fat young muscular types involved in intense activity and the average person though, so while it's easy to see that carbs don't make athletes fat it is equally easy to see the drip feed donut and full fat coke brigade with high %BF and sedentary activity demonstrating the opposite.

MityMax96

I'm so not that keen lately. So how many carbs a 5f6 31 year old woman, hits above her daily intake before she is storing them as fat?

By this study,
Do your weight in kg, and then multiply by 15

MityMax96

That figure for maximum glycogen storage at 15g/kg is a bit different to the 14-16g/kg of LBM that Lyle McDonald recommends in UD2. (well depending on BF% obviously)

I would hazard a guess that unless you are relatively lean e.g. 12% or less for a male you aren't going to notice a great difference with a higher fat intake or not while refeeding. I know of all the refeeds I've done, I think I've only been able to keep fat below 50g once. I can eat a LOT but fitting 1200g of carbs in with minimal fat (and typically at least 6L of water for rehydration) is pretty damn hard.

Cereal helps. But even that gets filling after a while

When I did my refeeds, I focused heavy on potatoes and white rice, gummie bears....
Was able to hit >500gr on day 1, with like 20gr in fat.....
Day 2 (~700gr before end of day), by end of day I did pancakes.....as well as bacon and butter..
So the intake of all of what I ate earlier in the day and then my big meal of pancakes and bacon and eggs.....helped me a ton to fill out....

MityMax96

But my point in saying carbs don't make you fat.....
They don't, unless you go above CHO norms....
Which I mean for most people, you need to actually put your mind too it...
I just did two competitions a few weeks ago, and I know that on 2 days of a carb reload, consuming very little fat and prolly less than 70 gr of protein....
I had to force myself to eat the carbs...just to get near 600 gr for the day.....of course I was doing with rice and potatoes for the most part....

So if someone actually sat down and planned out their diet accordingly, focusing on carbs/protein, and making sure fat intake stayed low that day.....
They would be hard pressed to reach a saturation point whereas their bodies get actually start holding onto fat.....
Is this an incorrect thought??

But a more expanded study would be nice, I agree......

It certainly helps to consider the balance of carbs and fat separately, with DNL an "overflow" route for surplus carbs into the fat reservoir in limited circumstances. With zero fat in the diet (like the 500 g meal 1982 study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6755166) it's fairly black and white although the ingestion of carbs always turns down the oxidation of fat.

With fat in the diet as per the above study then the carbs push the dietary fat into storage as well as inhibiting oxidation of fat from reserves. This to me is why dietary carbs can make you fat, or inhibit you getting less fat.

There's a world of difference between highly active low body fat young muscular types involved in intense activity and the average person though, so while it's easy to see that carbs don't make athletes fat it is equally easy to see the drip feed donut and full fat coke brigade with high %BF and sedentary activity demonstrating the opposite.

Again, I am not telling ppl to discount the other macros with their intake....

For me when I read this study (and again with how I do my diet), this is extremely enlightening to me...regardless if 3 ppl were used or 300.....

Because I take away from this study that if I so choose, I can have certain days where I really go big on carbs, while limiting fats....and keeping protein to decent levels.
Reason being is that for me I am fairly lean (right now).....and even on my high carb days, I have still been at the point where I was depleted......

So I guess when I look at this study and the data, I come at it from a different angle from what you and parkscs come at it from

I am well aware of how the body will oxidize carbs and store fat.....thus leading to a person getting fat...due to excess carbs and calories....ok, fine I accept that view and agree with it.
But then I have my view (whether y'all accept it or not) that I can limit fat....while consuming a LOT of carbs.....and not get fat....
So that is how I look at this study when I read it....

Now what other people take from the study and how they wish to order their diet.....I don't really care.
They can read and draw their own conclusions....and then fit it with how they see fit.

But I still believe my point stands...carbs in normal daily intake for most people....will not lead to a person getting fat.....
What gets them fat, is that they also:
1) consume more calories then they need
2) take in a lot of fat, while consuming a lot of carbs and as noted above, the fat will be stored while the carbs are being oxidized.

but hey, cheers :drinker: :drinker:
I should do pancakes tonight

eric_sg61

^^That is pretty much how I feel about it. I also think when people see "Carbs suppress fat oxidation" in their minds they interpret that as "Carbs stop fat burning". Which is far from the truth, suppress =/=stop.

Dragonwolf

^^That is pretty much how I feel about it. I also think when people see "Carbs suppress fat oxidation" in their minds they interpret that as "Carbs stop fat burning". Which is far from the truth, suppress =/=stop.

Reminds me of the people who see "low carb" (or even "grain/gluten free") and in their minds interpret that as "zero carbs." "Low-carb"/"grain-free" =/= "zero carb."

Like this guy:

But where are all the carb haters .. they seem awful quiet right now ? Anyone ? That's what I thought ... low / no carb is just dumb and totally unnecessary.

And to this guy,

Speak for yourself, man. If you can lose weight just by cutting calories a reasonable amount, or if you don't suffer from migraines, depression, binge eating disorder, or seizures, then bully for you. Not everyone is so lucky. For some of us, the choice for weight loss is either to eat like an Auschwitz prisoner or go low carb, thanks to how our hormones respond to reducing calories and high carbohydrate diets. For others, going low carb isn't even about weight loss, but being able to function on a day to day basis.

Please educate yourself on the reasons, mechanisms, and ways of going low carb before you judge others for following it.

Can someone dumb this down for me?

If you don't over consume calories, carbs won't make you fat.

More like, "carb cycling is a useful tool for athletes, and you can eat a fairly large amount of carbs on refeed days without the carbs themselves getting turned to fat, as they'll be used first to restore glycogen."