Running and lifting heavy

dreaming13000

Hello all,

I am looking for opinions, experiences etc. I have been a pretty hardcore athlete for about 5 years now. Running is the sport I love the most, but over the years I have dabbled in weight training

The last program I did was Supreme 90 day workout series and I loved it! But I was ready to get some heavier weights in there. So recently I have began lifting with the SL 5x5 program (about 6 weeks into it) I do enjoy it, at this point the loads are getting quite heavy for me as I am a small boned lady.

I have been having a hard time deciding how to get my run or HIIT days in while sticking with the SL 5x5 3 times a week. In the research I have done, the opinions vastly differ. For example, my muscles need the recovery day so some say I must run on my strength days, but this has diminished my returns on lifting.

Any real world experience or some good articles that could help me decide on this?

KeithAngilly

in for the knowledge..

I plan on doing this (strong lifts) over the winter, when I am not targeting a race. I can't imagine lifting heavy (especially squats) and also trying to run longer mileage weeks at the same time.

tsimblist

I started out with cardio (swim, bike & run) and eventually found strength training. At my age I have determined that the strength training is the priority and the cardio should support it.

So now I do most of my cardio at a recovery intensity so that I can be fresh for the lifting workouts. I workout in the morning and lift 3 times a week. I do my cardio on the non lifting days.

I use the Maffetone 180 formula to determine the max heart rate for my recovery cardio.

jimmmer

I lift 3 days a week.

I schedule cardio/conditioning for post-lifting. I take rest days AS rest days. The magic happens whilst you are recovering anyway, so a full on session followed by full rest day leaves you ready to be all you can be next time. I schedule my most challenging session for the day preceding my 2 full rest days together (Sun + Mon).

I'm going to be 40 in a month. I value being able to be as properly recovered as possible in time for the next session in order to fully maximise the benefit I can derive from it. It's not very sexy, but I've found it works.

Most of these issues are individual though: you try it one way. You don't react well to it. You try it another way. You react better to it. Thus you channel your programming down that avenue. Another person might have fared better with the first approach. Cookie cutter only works when you're a beginner, then you need to adapt to your specific needs.

willrun4bagels

I used to run. A lot. Half marathons, a full marathon, 5ks all the time.

I started SL in May 2014. I can count on one hand the number of times I've gone for a run since then. I don't enjoy it as much anymore now that the weights in SL are very heavy. I like lifting so much more, and the thought of going for a run seems like a chore to me now. There is no way I could do cardio on a lifting day now, but on my days off from lifting, I much prefer walking / hikes instead when I have the time. I guess it's just a personal preference and depends on how you fuel yourself and how your recovery is between days of lifting.

Getting a new PR on squats or deadlifts seems so much more exciting to me than going for a run, so I am sticking with lifting lol.

martinel2099

It's not running but I still do elliptical a little after I lift and on my in between days. My legs get pretty tired but I enjoy it, I might have to start walking on the tredmil at a slower speed when my legs get too sore but I need my Cardio Netflix time.

_Waffle_

Running and lifting heavy

Just don't do both at the same time and don't run on leg day.

JTick

I'm running 25-30 miles a week right now, training for a half marathon. I'm also running Wendler 5/3/1.

It's not as scary as some people make it out to be.

Am I going to win marathons and powerlifting meets at the same time? No.

But I can have fun with my races, squat 220, and pull 230.

Seems to be working just fine.

The scheduling does take some work. I made the mistake of scheduling my long run the day after leg day ONE time. That was miserable. Right now my schedule looks like this:

Sunday - Rest
Monday - Deadlift/accessories + run
Tuesday - Run
Wednesday - Squat/Leg day
Thursday - Run
Friday - OHP/Bench/accessories
Saturday - Long run.

Putting my upper body stuff before the long run works really well for me. I can still lift, but my legs stay fresh.

Sarauk2sf

You can run and lift - unfortunately, you may have to prioritize one over the other due to recovery and time. If you love running, and that is your passion, and are having problems fitting it around lifting, then focus on it the other way - get at least 2 full body workouts in and schedule around your running schedule (allowing enough recovery for both).

While your progress for lifting will probably slow - you only *need* 2 days of full body for LBM retention as long as its a good progressive loading routine.

You could also look to doing HIIT after lifting if you have the energy. Just remember that 'proper' HIIT needs the same recovery as a lifting session does.

Chaskavitch

Running and lifting heavy

Just don't do both at the same time and don't run on leg day.

You can run on your lifting days (although waffle is probably right about leg day, that sounds terrible), but I wouldn't run BEFORE you lift. I'm sure you've figured that out, but if you're already tired from running, lifting your "normal" weights can get dangerous without you realizing it.

Take at least one legitimate rest day a week. My sister has been training 7 days a week, with only one day that is "just" cardio, no lifting, and she is miserable and sore all the time. She's doing it for a show, so she has a trainer who told her to do it, but if you don't give yourself recovery time you're holding back your gains.

Also, which is more important to you, running or lifting? That should make a big difference in your choices.

jimmmer

Also, you don't really say what kind of running you're doing.

Sprinting (up to 400m), middle distance (800m-> 1mile) or longer distance? They are all different prospects and how you should organise things is probably different.

dreaming13000

I used to run. A lot. Half marathons, a full marathon, 5ks all the time.

I started SL in May 2014. I can count on one hand the number of times I've gone for a run since then. I don't enjoy it as much anymore now that the weights in SL are very heavy. I like lifting so much more, and the thought of going for a run seems like a chore to me now. There is no way I could do cardio on a lifting day now, but on my days off from lifting, I much prefer walking / hikes instead when I have the time. I guess it's just a personal preference and depends on how you fuel yourself and how your recovery is between days of lifting.

Getting a new PR on squats or deadlifts seems so much more exciting to me than going for a run, so I am sticking with lifting lol.

I used to do the half marys and full marys, but in the last couple years I have been doing the obstacle racing and the 5ks with speed (I often place at least in my age group if not top womens) and I have enjoyed working on my speed work, but like you mentioned above, the weights have started to bump running out of place. Last week I had two runs and I pretty much disliked the entire run, this week so far I have only made time for one run.....

Maybe my priorities are shifting again???

dreaming13000

Also, you don't really say what kind of running you're doing.

Sprinting (up to 400m), middle distance (800m-> 1mile) or longer distance? They are all different prospects and how you should organise things is probably different.

I like to win 5ks, so I am working on tempo runs, rest runs, and sprints nothing longer then 4 miles.

jimmmer

Also, you don't really say what kind of running you're doing.

Sprinting (up to 400m), middle distance (800m-> 1mile) or longer distance? They are all different prospects and how you should organise things is probably different.

I like to win 5ks, so I am working on tempo runs, rest runs, and sprints nothing longer then 4 miles.

How were you scheduling your lifting and running on the same day that you found you couldn't recover? What kind of macro split are you running?

ETA: If you're doing shorter distances like this, I would just do the session after the lifting (time permitting, of course). Make sure you get plenty of carbs, run a small calorie deficit and enjoy your rest days (as in just go for a non-recovery impacting walk or something or even veg out). Try it for a week or two and see how you fare.

cwolfman13

Here's my experience from a couple of years ago when I started Starting Strength...

Basically I was fine lifting and either running or cycling on non lifting days for a few months...I started to have issues though as the weight became heavier. Squatting heavy weight 3x weekly pretty much left my legs shot to ****...I could still run and I could still ride, but my times were not getting better, they were getting worse.

At that point I wanted to continue with strength training but determined that Starting Strength just wasn't going to work for my goals...this is when I switched to Wendler's 5/3/1 programming. Rather than being full body like Starting Strength, it is a split routine...I wasn't squatting every time out and I could schedule run/ride days around my leg days, etc for better recover. I did this program for quite awhile and found it to be a much better fit for me as someone who likes to do other things besides lift...I was a lot fresher for those other things.

I'm currently doing New Rules Supercharged which I enjoy because it takes me through various cycles of Strength/Power, hypertrophy, and endurance/stamina...I enjoy having cycles in different rep ranges. I also find it beneficial because I can, for example, downshift to an endurance/stamina rep range for a cycle or two while I'm in cyclocross season which will help me be more explosive and give me greater endurance and stamina for racing this fall...when racing season is over and we go into the dark of winter I will switch over to a hypertrophy or strength cycle where I'll really be killing it in the weight room and not worrying too much about racing or times on my bike...I can get back to all of that in the spring and just use my winter to become bigger and stronger.

willrun4bagels

I used to run. A lot. Half marathons, a full marathon, 5ks all the time.

I started SL in May 2014. I can count on one hand the number of times I've gone for a run since then. I don't enjoy it as much anymore now that the weights in SL are very heavy. I like lifting so much more, and the thought of going for a run seems like a chore to me now. There is no way I could do cardio on a lifting day now, but on my days off from lifting, I much prefer walking / hikes instead when I have the time. I guess it's just a personal preference and depends on how you fuel yourself and how your recovery is between days of lifting.

Getting a new PR on squats or deadlifts seems so much more exciting to me than going for a run, so I am sticking with lifting lol.

I used to do the half marys and full marys, but in the last couple years I have been doing the obstacle racing and the 5ks with speed (I often place at least in my age group if not top womens) and I have enjoyed working on my speed work, but like you mentioned above, the weights have started to bump running out of place. Last week I had two runs and I pretty much disliked the entire run, this week so far I have only made time for one run.....

Maybe my priorities are shifting again???

Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with that. I never imagined I'd want to stop running or would pick something else in favor of it, until I tried something else.

I have noticed that since starting SL, the couple of runs that I have gone on have been way faster and way easier than they used to be (dem noob muscle gainz?), so I felt like my cardio capacity hasn't diminished much, if at all, FWIW. I do a 5mi turkey trot every Thanksgiving morning without fail, and I am sort of expecting a PR this year even though I won't dedicate much time training for it based on how my last couple of runs have felt over the last few weeks.

dreaming13000

Here's my experience from a couple of years ago when I started Starting Strength...

Basically I was fine lifting and either running or cycling on non lifting days for a few months...I started to have issues though as the weight became heavier. Squatting heavy weight 3x weekly pretty much left my legs shot to ****...I could still run and I could still ride, but my times were not getting better, they were getting worse.

At that point I wanted to continue with strength training but determined that Starting Strength just wasn't going to work for my goals...this is when I switched to Wendler's 5/3/1 programming. Rather than being full body like Starting Strength, it is a split routine...I wasn't squatting every time out and I could schedule run/ride days around my leg days, etc for better recover. I did this program for quite awhile and found it to be a much better fit for me as someone who likes to do other things besides lift...I was a lot fresher for those other things.

I'm currently doing New Rules Supercharged which I enjoy because it takes me through various cycles of Strength/Power, hypertrophy, and endurance/stamina...I enjoy having cycles in different rep ranges. I also find it beneficial because I can, for example, downshift to an endurance/stamina rep range for a cycle or two while I'm in cyclocross season which will help me be more explosive and give me greater endurance and stamina for racing this fall...when racing season is over and we go into the dark of winter I will switch over to a hypertrophy or strength cycle where I'll really be killing it in the weight room and not worrying too much about racing or times on my bike...I can get back to all of that in the spring and just use my winter to become bigger and stronger.

I will look into these routines. I guess I mostly worry about losing my cardio capacity, I've worked very hard to get to the place I am now. Thank you for your input!

dreaming13000

Also, you don't really say what kind of running you're doing.

Sprinting (up to 400m), middle distance (800m-> 1mile) or longer distance? They are all different prospects and how you should organise things is probably different.

I like to win 5ks, so I am working on tempo runs, rest runs, and sprints nothing longer then 4 miles.

How were you scheduling your lifting and running on the same day that you found you couldn't recover? What kind of macro split are you running?

ETA: If you're doing shorter distances like this, I would just do the session after the lifting (time permitting, of course). Make sure you get plenty of carbs, run a small calorie deficit and enjoy your rest days (as in just go for a non-recovery impacting walk or something or even veg out). Try it for a week or two and see how you fare.

The problem is the "time permitting" for running after my weight sessions, but I am going to have to try to figure out a way to make it happen so I can see if it works better. Last week I did an early morning run (5:30 am tempo run with fastest split 7:35 which is NOT my fastest) and then did the lifting session at 8pm. The time in between I fueled the best I know how, but I couldn't finish any of my reps for weights I had previously lifted before. The next day I did not feel well....just kind of fatigued and sleepy/ cranky, hangover feeling.

PetulantOne

Here's my experience from a couple of years ago when I started Starting Strength...

Basically I was fine lifting and either running or cycling on non lifting days for a few months...I started to have issues though as the weight became heavier. Squatting heavy weight 3x weekly pretty much left my legs shot to ****...I could still run and I could still ride, but my times were not getting better, they were getting worse.

At that point I wanted to continue with strength training but determined that Starting Strength just wasn't going to work for my goals...this is when I switched to Wendler's 5/3/1 programming. Rather than being full body like Starting Strength, it is a split routine...I wasn't squatting every time out and I could schedule run/ride days around my leg days, etc for better recover. I did this program for quite awhile and found it to be a much better fit for me as someone who likes to do other things besides lift...I was a lot fresher for those other things.

I'm currently doing New Rules Supercharged which I enjoy because it takes me through various cycles of Strength/Power, hypertrophy, and endurance/stamina...I enjoy having cycles in different rep ranges. I also find it beneficial because I can, for example, downshift to an endurance/stamina rep range for a cycle or two while I'm in cyclocross season which will help me be more explosive and give me greater endurance and stamina for racing this fall...when racing season is over and we go into the dark of winter I will switch over to a hypertrophy or strength cycle where I'll really be killing it in the weight room and not worrying too much about racing or times on my bike...I can get back to all of that in the spring and just use my winter to become bigger and stronger.

I had the same issue trying to squat 3 days a week and run. I've been doing 5/3/1 3 days a week, and running 3 days a week for over a year now with no recovery issues.

Like others have said though, you will likely have to go the trial and error route though to figure out what will work for you.

Azdak

Interestingly, this very topic was discussed in a "point/counterpoint" article in the Aug issue of the Strength and Conditioning Journal from the NSCA.

It was interesting more for the consensus than the disagreement. Both sides agreed mostly that strength training provides benefits for endurance athletes. The main disagreement was an emphasis on heavy lifting vs more endurance lifting.

But both also agreed that, for optimum performance for the endurance athlete, lifting should make up no more than 30% of total training volume (they did not actually define "training volume" but, whatever it is, lifting should be no more than 30% ;-)

The "pro" lifting guy also noted that many athletes are already overtraining and cautioned against an excessive amount of heavy lifting and HIIT training.

Granted this applies to endurance athletes, i.e. those who are training for optimum performance in this type of competition.

The average person can do whatever they want--just know that, at some point, you can't excel in everything at the same time.

jimmmer

Also, you don't really say what kind of running you're doing.

Sprinting (up to 400m), middle distance (800m-> 1mile) or longer distance? They are all different prospects and how you should organise things is probably different.

I like to win 5ks, so I am working on tempo runs, rest runs, and sprints nothing longer then 4 miles.

How were you scheduling your lifting and running on the same day that you found you couldn't recover? What kind of macro split are you running?

ETA: If you're doing shorter distances like this, I would just do the session after the lifting (time permitting, of course). Make sure you get plenty of carbs, run a small calorie deficit and enjoy your rest days (as in just go for a non-recovery impacting walk or something or even veg out). Try it for a week or two and see how you fare.

The problem is the "time permitting" for running after my weight sessions, but I am going to have to try to figure out a way to make it happen so I can see if it works better. Last week I did an early morning run (5:30 am tempo run with fastest split 7:35 which is NOT my fastest) and then did the lifting session at 8pm. The time in between I fueled the best I know how, but I couldn't finish any of my reps for weights I had previously lifted before. The next day I did not feel well....just kind of fatigued and sleepy/ cranky, hangover feeling.

It's tricky.

As cwolfman notes, you may do better if you treat yourself like an on season/off season athlete.

I do something similar summer/winter. I just maintain my cv in the winter months (you park it by doing the absolute minimum to keep your times whilst you work on your lifts) then in the summer change your lifting schedule and focus on your cv (2x week full body, upper/lower split, etc are all running/recovery friendly).

I take it you are cutting? You are basically stealing recovery from diet, lifting AND running. Something may have to give. Options could include: (1) doing minimal cv work and focus on your lifting with a small calorie deficit. Or: (2) try to maintain your current schedule whilst eating at or slightly above maintenance calories. Or: (3) Go onto 2x weekly lifting routine, keep the cv the same and keep a moderate deficit.

It's all so individual. You will need to change something, run the approach for a week or two and re-evaluate. Be honest with yourself about other factors (sleep, stress, hydration, macro-split) and how they play into your training and recovery.

You seem pretty advanced in your training, so there isn't going to be a cookie-cutter answer for you, I'm afraid. The simple recommendations to newbs will probably be unsatisfactory. Go by feel, don't change everything at once (how will you tell what worked?) and orientate your schedule around the thing that is your current priority (fit everything else in around this).

Capt_Apollo

if you're doing shorter races, 10k or less, and enjoy doing obstacle races, then a mixture of cardio and lifting is great. you'll be fast and strong, and have endurance. longer distances might be a problem. i mean, you can probably still do a half marathon, but your time might not be as good as you'd like, and your lower body strength gains might be minimal.

aliakynes

At first I started running on alternate days and it worked out brillinatly. But the weights have recently become so heavy that I need a full rest day in between. So I'm attempting to move my runs to after lifts.

As mentioned above, go with your gut. If it doesn't work out, make adjustments. What works today wont necessarily work out four weeks from now so set short term goals and modify as needed.

Capt_Apollo

like others have said, you can't be doing everything at once. jimmer said, be an off season/on season athlete. you can run and lift all year, but you make one a priority for 6 months.

lporter229

Also, you don't really say what kind of running you're doing.

Sprinting (up to 400m), middle distance (800m-> 1mile) or longer distance? They are all different prospects and how you should organise things is probably different.

I like to win 5ks, so I am working on tempo runs, rest runs, and sprints nothing longer then 4 miles.

How were you scheduling your lifting and running on the same day that you found you couldn't recover? What kind of macro split are you running?

ETA: If you're doing shorter distances like this, I would just do the session after the lifting (time permitting, of course). Make sure you get plenty of carbs, run a small calorie deficit and enjoy your rest days (as in just go for a non-recovery impacting walk or something or even veg out). Try it for a week or two and see how you fare.

I agree with this. Running is my top priority, but I try to fit lifting in there too. When I am training for a marathon, I usually do 2-3 days of strength training and yoga and focus only on core/ upper body and save my legs for the running. But when I am between training I have done programs like NROLFW, Stronglifts 5X5 and P90X. I usually schedule my lifting to coincide with days when I am doing shorter runs with speedwork or hills, then I back it up with a day of complete rest. My theory is that torturing my legs for one day and then giving them a good rest is better than dragging them through the mud a little each day and never giving them a break. On days that i lift and run, I will usually run in the AM and lift in the PM, but occasionally go back to back. Like you mentioned earlier though, if you are doing both, you have to concede that you will probably not excel in either.

JustinAnimal

For me, lifting is a top priority (well... gettin' sexy is... losing fat, gaining muscle... and I think strength training is the best way to accomplish this), but running is my meditation (and insurance against low weight days). I just started SL 5x5 (like one week into it) and, because the weight is so low, I do what I used to do with New Rules; I do 15-30 minutes of intervals on the exercise bike after my weights. Others have advised me not to run on my "off" days (Tues / Thurs), but I enjoy it too much and I've heard it gets blood flowing to your weakened muscles. I've had no problems so far, but the weights I'm lifting aren't terrifying yet. I take it pretty easy Saturday / Sunday (yardwork, housework, running errands, etc.) and those are my actual recovery days. Hope this helps!

ETA: My "runs" are more like jogs. Three to five miles at a pretty moderate pace (something like 7 mph...8-8.5 minute miles).

The_Enginerd

I'm running 25-30 miles a week right now, training for a half marathon. I'm also running Wendler 5/3/1.

It's not as scary as some people make it out to be.

Am I going to win marathons and powerlifting meets at the same time? No.

But I can have fun with my races, squat 220, and pull 230.

Seems to be working just fine.

The scheduling does take some work. I made the mistake of scheduling my long run the day after leg day ONE time. That was miserable. Right now my schedule looks like this:

Sunday - Rest
Monday - Deadlift/accessories + run
Tuesday - Run
Wednesday - Squat/Leg day
Thursday - Run
Friday - OHP/Bench/accessories
Saturday - Long run.

Putting my upper body stuff before the long run works really well for me. I can still lift, but my legs stay fresh.

I'm in a similar place. I follow a 5x5 program and run 3-4 times a week. When my running was shorter distances (long run was 10k), I was lifting 3 times a week and running 2-3 times a week. As I increased my running base to train for my half marathon and Spartan Beast (12+ miles), I only lift 2 times a week due for recovery and time reasons.

This is this week:

Sun: Lift (Squats)
Mon: 3 mile trail run/hill training.
Tue: Rest
Wed: ~5 mile run with a 1.5 miles pace run in the middle
Thu: Lift (No Squats)
Friday: Long run (13.1 miles)
Sat: 6-8 mile trail run

My schedule changes a bit week to week, but I follow the basic rule of a rest day or easy run the day before/after squats. It seems to work well for me.

In the end, it's going to be a balance to what your goals and desires are at the time. Once I complete the Spartan Beast, my plan was to cut back on the running, switch back to lifting 3 days a week, and start another bulk/cut cycle.

edit: I see as I was typing my reply others also recommended the on/off season approach. I second (third?) this.

sculli123

I lift heavy 4x per week and usually run about 3x per week. It doesn't matter to me if I run after a workout or on an 'off day'. Either one is fine IMO, I just do whichever fits into my schedule. I only run into issues if I were to do a long run the day before squats which is obvious. Other than that if you're having trouble recovering, you may need to up your calories.

gobonas99

like others have said, you can't be doing everything at once. jimmer said, be an off season/on season athlete. you can run and lift all year, but you make one a priority for 6 months.

So much this. When I'm in tri training mode, it is all about the swim/bike/run. I only get 1-2 body weight strength sessions in a week (and that is usually power yoga, so I get the added benefit of stretching too).

Now that my tris are over, I'll start shifting...I'll do less swimming and biking (although still running just as much because I have a half marathon in Oct, and that is the discipline I need to work on the most) and lift 2-3 times a week...then after my half, transition to lifting heavy 3x a week.

I would usually maintain the 3x/wk lifting through April, but since I'm doing the local Ironman 70.3 in June, my tri training "ramp up" will start in March vs May this year, and I'll drop back to lifting only once or twice a week a bit earlier than usual.

Otterluv

Like others, I've found that it's a matter of priorities. I LOVE trail running, but I decided that for now I need to focus on losing the rest of my weight and maximizing my muscle development. That means that I'm being aggressive about lifting (4x a week) and I had to scale back my running. A lot. But, I figure that as long as I maintain a baseline, I can build it back up again when my goals become once again more centered on running, hopefully in the spring.

BusyRaeNOTBusty

During biking season I try to do this routine 2 days a week:

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/373801-two-day-full-body-strength-training-routine

Stronglifts and squats 3 times a week was just too much.