Change Direction from Weight Loss to BUILD MUSCLE- Timing??

BramageOMG

I have done a lot of reading, and found a tremendous amount of conflicting data. As a result, I decided to lose my fat first and then begin some serious weight training. My goal: Gain lean muscle. How much? As much as I can

Stats
Age:49
Height:6’ 0”
Weight: 194 (down from 237)

I have been doing gym 6-7 days with an avg of 10.4 visits per week (I go twice a few days a week)
My “lose weight plan” was 80% Cardio / 20% weight training (to keep the muscle I have and ad to weight loss)

I have been eating a 1000 calorie+ deficit over 10 weeks

So here is where I am: I want to change directions and start building lean muscle. I have calculated my new intake via IIFYM including macro distribution

So here is the question: Should I get to my goal weight of 185 before making the switch, or start now?

If I start now, should I use my current weight as the starting point or eat a surplus based on the goal weight of 185?

I don’t know where my weight will end up, but I would like body fat to be in the teens.

This is with a 5% surplus and 1.0 Protien/lb of body weight. Is 5% surplus enough given I want to bulk and yet still lose some of the remaining extra weight?


Option 1 (Based on 194 Starting Weight)
CARBS.......PROTEIN.......FAT.......FIBER.......CALORIES
271.4..............194 ..............77.6......39 - 46.........2560

Option 2 (Based on 185 starting weight)
CARBS.......PROTEIN.....FAT........ FIBER ........CALORIES
272.5..............185 ...........74.......37 - 46...............2496

Thanks!!!!

ana3067

I would say that you should be weight training regularly regardless of your goals, but if you want to switch to putting on muscle then you can start whenever you;d like. Understand though that if you're not at your ideal body fat percentage, then you will look puffier as you put on muscle and then have to cut again. So it depends on how much body fat you have left I guess. The more you have, the more I'd recommend continuing to cut and increasing your strength training (I personally go 5 hours a week only, 4 of those on weigh training - it sounds like overall you are over-training unless you are training for something specific like a marathon.. even then..)

TriLifter

I would say that you should be weight training regularly regardless of your goals, but if you want to switch to putting on muscle then you can start whenever you;d like. Understand though that if you're not at your ideal body fat percentage, then you will look puffier as you put on muscle and then have to cut again. So it depends on how much body fat you have left I guess. The more you have, the more I'd recommend continuing to cut and increasing your strength training (I personally go 5 hours a week only, 4 of those on weigh training - it sounds like overall you are over-training unless you are training for something specific like a marathon.. even then..)

I tend to agree with this.

What kind of lifting program are you currently following? What does this 80/20 look like?

BramageOMG

I do Cardio every visit and lift 3 days per week. I currently do not have a weight training plan only because my focus has been weight loss. I alternate lifting as follows: Day 1 -Legs/Abs Day 2- Chest/Back Day 3- Arms/Shoulders

My frequency has been driven by Cardio and my schedule will likely change when I move to weight training/bulking as my primary objective.

The weight training plan I ultimately decide on will dictate that

So my thought, and the purpose of this thread:

If I eat a surplus based on a weight I have not achieved (185) can I begin to build lean muscle while continuing to lower my BMI? I guess just staying on the cardio track until I get to goal weight is an option, but wanted a second opinion

RGv2

You should be lifting as of yesterday.

Lifting in a deficit maintains muscle mass so you only lose fat and water. You already went through the bulk phase when you gained weight, not maintain the muscle that you built while you lose fat (cut phase), rather than losing weight to the point that you need to bulk again to gain muscle.

It is EXTREMELY hard to gain muscle. Save what you have so you don't have to go through all of that work and excess calories later.......unless you want to bulk again.

TriLifter

I do Cardio every visit and lift 3 days per week. I currently do not have a weight training plan only because my focus has been weight loss. I alternate lifting as follows: Day 1 -Legs/Abs Day 2- Chest/Back Day 3- Arms/Shoulders

My frequency has been driven by Cardio and my schedule will likely change when I move to weight training/bulking as my primary objective.

The weight training plan I ultimately decide on will dictate that

So my thought, and the purpose of this thread:

If I eat a surplus based on a weight I have not achieved (185) can I begin to build lean muscle while continuing to lower my BMI? I guess just staying on the cardio track until I get to goal weight is an option, but wanted a second opinion

If you want to gain muscle, you have to lift as your primary and also eat at a surplus of your CURRENT weight. Eating at a surplus of your goal weight but at a deficit of your current weight is still a deficit. You could eat at maintenance and lift to do a body recomp (lose fat and gain muscle at the same time), but it takes about the same amount of time as watching paint dry. I suggest that you keep lifting, but follow an actual program, and eat at a deficit until you reach a better body fat %. Then you can look into doing bulk/cut or bulk/recomp cycles to gain mass.

amos481

Your dedication to achieving your goals have been amazing and very inspirational!!

I am part of a group here on MFP called Eat, Train, Progress, the moderators really know their stuff (SideSteel and Sarauk2sf) in case you want to get in touch with them. Note *** I do not mean any disrespect to the people that have/will reply to your thread.

Reddirtblacktopqueen

Bumping to follow. Thanks to everyone who gives input here.

fivethreeone

You do not mention your body fat percentage. bulking is not usually recommended for men who are above 15% body fat, as the rule of thumb is to cut to about 10% and bulk to 15%.

To answer your question, your scale weight matters less than your body fat percentage in determining when is the ideal time to bulk.

ETA: I took another look and it sounds as though you are more interested in recomposition than in bulking. If you are putting on appreciable muscle mass, you WILL gain some fat at the same time. It is unavoidable, which is the reason it is recommended that you reduce your body fat to about 10% before you begin. If you want to shed a small amount of fat while putting on a small amount of muscle it takes much longer. You would eat at maintenance, not at a surplus. For a standard bulk, you would eat about 20% above your TDEE.

3laine75

Good plan

If you feel really fed up cutting and your lifts are starting to stall out you could start now.

I bulked at 30% bf which is far from ideal (female btw) but I'm still happy with my results. As to which numbers you use, use the ones for the weight you are when you decide to bulk.

At 6' they both look pretty low though?!

Nothing wrong with keeping the cardio but you may find you need to eat loads to keep up the gains. You'll probably find you need to increase cals a good few times along the way too as your maintenance 'catches up with you'.

Good luck with it - I'm jealous, I've got 8lb to lose before I go for it again

ETA: how many cals does your 5% translate as? As a guy, you could gain 0.5lb muscle a week - you will always gain some fat too so best to shoot for a 1lb a week gain (+500 cals)

BramageOMG

Based on the Navy calculator which uses all measurements, I am at 19.5%

On the height / weight / waist calculator I am at 22%

Given the "wait until you are at 15%", I will need to drop to about 160lbs before starting a meaningful weight training program.

3laine75

How long have you been lifting? You might do better with a full body programme like Stronglifts or starting strength. Or a legs/push/pull split like wendlers.

Apologies if you've been at it a while and know what you're doing.

BramageOMG

Not fed up at all. The weight has fallen of very fast. My stomach is flat, my *kitten* is skin, and the muscle I had still seems to be there (except in my *kitten*) - Legs have gotten pretty skinny too. My plan was to make the turn at 190 (although I used 185 in my example). Since losing weight is not hard for me (sorry for those that now hate me).. Ill continue with original plan. Get to 190 (probably by next week).. then go with a 10% bulk / lift program. Once I see where things are going, I can adjust.

Thanks to everyone that has provided guidance!!

I have been using strong lifts with some random isolation where I see a need (Legs / Arms). Have not lifted in a number of years, and the new plans look like the (very) old plans: Few Compound Exercises with low reps and heavy weight. There are a couple I am looking at and the ones I am considering are all very similar to SL 5X5. Where I am weak on free weights I have been using machine / smith to get a base which will then move over to free weight / barbell / dumbbell as my strength allows

RGv2

Based on the Navy calculator which uses all measurements, I am at 19.5%

On the height / weight / waist calculator I am at 22%

Given the "wait until you are at 15%", I will need to drop to about 160lbs before starting a meaningful weight training program.

No.....

If you weight train now, you will maintain muscle mass, thus being more efficient at dropping your BF% as when you lose, you lose mostly fat and water. You're in the cut right now, so you should be weight training to maintain your muscle mass. Not work to lose it and then work even harder to get it back. That's counter production, don't you think?

Edit because you just replied again. You don't need to go through a bulk. Make your deficit extremely moderate and lift heavy. You probably don't need to gain muscle as much as you need to maintain it while dropping BF.

3laine75

Based on the Navy calculator which uses all measurements, I am at 19.5%

On the height / weight / waist calculator I am at 22%

Given the "wait until you are at 15%", I will need to drop to about 160lbs before starting a meaningful weight training program.

No no, you misunderstand - start the programme now. You can gain strength and help maintain muscle at deficit

SteveJWatson

You are the same height as me and I am roughly 12% BF at 168lbs, which is where I bulked from last time, this time I want to cut to 10% before I bulk.

And as others have said, you ned to lift whilst cutting to maintain your muscle mass.

MrGonzo05

You should wait 3 more weeks.

Just kidding. Lift now.

fivethreeone

Based on the Navy calculator which uses all measurements, I am at 19.5%

On the height / weight / waist calculator I am at 22%

Given the "wait until you are at 15%", I will need to drop to about 160lbs before starting a meaningful weight training program.

No.....

If you weight train now, you will maintain muscle mass, thus being more efficient at dropping your BF% as when you lose, you lose mostly fat and water. You're in the cut right now, so you should be weight training to maintain your muscle mass. Not work to lose it and then work even harder to get it back. That's counter production, don't you think?

Edit because you just replied again. You don't need to go through a bulk. Make your deficit extremely moderate and lift heavy. You probably don't need to gain muscle as much as you need to maintain it while dropping BF.

I agree with this, given the information you provided, though a multi-site skinfold test with calipers would be a better method of determining bf%.

You should be lifting on a regular program now to preserve muscle mass. Strength gains and mass gains are not the same thing.

VAClydesdale

I do more 7 hours a week of cardio (cycling and running) because I love it. I used to lift ten years ago (switched to cardio because it kept the weight of better) but have added it back recently since I've been on MFP. I agree with others that you should be lifting now to keep and/or add muscle now. It will help burn more body fat.

BramageOMG

You should wait 3 more weeks.

Just kidding. Lift now.

In 3 weeks Ill weigh 112.. LOL Good info all around. I think I have a good idea of where I need to go. And to clarify: I am coming from FAT-*kitten* and now looking to buff up a little

flavia1432

Nothing to offer - the "coming from FAT *kitten*" thing just cracked me up.

3laine75

You should wait 3 more weeks.

Just kidding. Lift now.

In 3 weeks Ill weigh 112.. LOL Good info all around. I think I have a good idea of where I need to go. And to clarify: I am coming from FAT-*kitten* and now looking to buff up a little

FAT-*kitten* to BADASS :happy:

BramageOMG

You should wait 3 more weeks.

Just kidding. Lift now.

In 3 weeks Ill weigh 112.. LOL Good info all around. I think I have a good idea of where I need to go. And to clarify: I am coming from FAT-*kitten* and now looking to buff up a little

FAT-*kitten* to BADASS :happy:

FAT-*kitten* to BAD-*kitten*

****.. That's what I was trying to say!!!!!!!

odddrums

Everyone is right, just start lifting now to build strength and maintain muscle. I'd keep eating at a deficit though so you can lose the extra fat now and make the muscle building later happen easier.

I'm in the same boat, 6' and went from 220 to 180 in 2011-2013 without a structured lifting program, then I spent summer 2013 eating more and lifting to gain muscle, and instead ballooned right back to 190 with very little gains. I spent the next 9 months building strength and getting back to 185 before finally gaining the strength I wanted this summer, 2014. I'm not satisfied and am still eating at a deficit though because I never got where I wanted to be in the first place, so I feel like I'm still playing catch-up.

I'd say don't worry about building muscle until you are at or UNDER your goal weight. What I would do is this:
-Start lifting to get strength. Starting strength is a great program if you're just getting into or back into lifting and a VERY good book, well worth the price.
-Keep eating at a deficit until you are UNDER your goal weight. Working out at this point will mean you're not losing any more muscle, which is the important part.
-Once you're under your goal by a few pounds for a few weeks, start eating a bit more and working out a bit harder and harder. The extra food will make it easier to push the workouts.
-From here, just eat and work and eat and work and you'll gain muscle! You'll also gain fat, especially if you try to gain too fast. I'd say try to gain half a pound a month, that way you're not just eating a bunch to Get Freaking HUGE but putting the weight on smartly.
-And then it's just a matter of lifting more and more weight until you feel right.

This is what I wish I had done initially, it would have saved me the last 9 months of slowly cutting 5 pounds and I'd be at 175 working on gaining strength right now, instead of working to get below 180 without losing muscle.

Anyway, there's a TON of really good advice in this thread, and you already sound like you're on your way! Keep it up!

BramageOMG

Great replay!! Its great to hear from someone who has done it. It looks like the initial advice I got was good: Lose the pounds, but lift enough to keep the strength and muscle you have. I think I have done that for the most part. So it looks like I am in good shape.

I will start a structured program on the 2nd. That will give this weeks damage time to heal. Starting strength looks good, I have done research on that and it would be a good starting point.

Since I am eating at a big deficit now, I think I will lower my deficit. Should I modify my macros to include more protein? The MFP default is
Carbs 50%......Fat 30%.........Protein 20%

What I am thinking:

My TDDE now is 2860

I (will) eat 2500 as follows

321 Carbs........55 Fat.......180 Protein


This makes my deficit much smaller and provides more protein than the current allotment

(I'm eating 1700 - 1800 now)

In terms of exercise offset. I assume I should continue to do cardio to keep the fat-*kitten*-ness coming off. Should I eat back my calories burned in this scenario? Thanks again to everyone!!!

TriLifter

Great replay!! Its great to hear from someone who has done it. It looks like the initial advice I got was good: Lose the pounds, but lift enough to keep the strength and muscle you have. I think I have done that for the most part. So it looks like I am in good shape.

I will start a structured program on the 2nd. That will give this weeks damage time to heal. Starting strength looks good, I have done research on that and it would be a good starting point.

Since I am eating at a big deficit now, I think I will lower my deficit. Should I modify my macros to include more protein? The MFP default is
Carbs 50%......Fat 30%.........Protein 20%

What I am thinking:

My TDDE now is 2860

I (will) eat 2500 as follows

321 Carbs........55 Fat.......180 Protein


This makes my deficit much smaller and provides more protein than the current allotment

(I'm eating 1700 - 1800 now)

In terms of exercise offset. I assume I should continue to do cardio to keep the fat-*kitten*-ness coming off. Should I eat back my calories burned in this scenario? Thanks again to everyone!!!

Starting Strength is a great program for you to do. Re: cardio, yes, do whatever you've been doing to get that 2800 TDEE, otherwise you have to recalculate all your numbers. DO NOT eat back calories burned, they are already included in the TDEE. If you want to track your workouts, enter them as 1 calorie burned. Protein looks fine, but you could play around with your fat and carb macros...dietary fat =/= fat on your body.

SrMaggalicious

You should be lifting as of yesterday.

Lifting in a deficit maintains muscle mass so you only lose fat and water. You already went through the bulk phase when you gained weight, not maintain the muscle that you built while you lose fat (cut phase), rather than losing weight to the point that you need to bulk again to gain muscle.

It is EXTREMELY hard to gain muscle. Save what you have so you don't have to go through all of that work and excess calories later.......unless you want to bulk again.

^^This. there is no finish line, therefore no rush. It's more about sustaining - and muscle will help you get there. (another reason why I don't go by the scale more than the mirror).

Do you plan to work out 6 to 7 days as week when you're 70 - 80? Twice a day? Will you be sustaining this schedule on a regular basis?

3laine75

The new calorie/macro breakdown looks good. starting strength is a great programme, you'll love it - I got about 4 months out of it at (1000) deficit.

If you're using TDEE you don't get to eat back your exercise cals though.