So ... yeah about muscle building in a deficit.

RHachicho

Just wanted to share my experience and pick a few peoples brains on this subject. Now before you people who have been fit all your lives chime in and go NO WAI!!! Hear me out. I was very very fat. I still am. I am proud to have recently crossed the threshold out of obese bmi and into overweight. As I was very close to being morbidly obese at the start of my journey.

However the method I chose was not an overly restrictive diet although yes I did plan on a deficit. No weight loss without it of course. I went for activity. I built up to walking 14 hours a week. I have 3 1 hour heavy lifting sessions a week. And if I find the time I swim laps for 45 mins or so twice a week. The weight has so far been falling off me in short order. And I have been making remarkable gains in strength. What I didn't know until recently is apparently I have been making muscular gains too. However they have been hidden under the fat until now.

Basically Every month I do a full body measure, estimate my body fat with an impedance meter (yes i know they suck) and weigh in. So far all consistent with someone doing well in a diet but the last two months have seen me lose weight and waistline inches ... but gain width on my thighs and my arms. And the trainers at the gym are kinda shocked at me now. Before I was just a lump o lard. But now I'm still fat but you can clearly see the muscle even under the fat.

Not only that but my strength has increased stupidly. I have gone from dead lifting 20 to 45 kilos in the 6 months I have been seriously lifting. And honestly I could probably lift more if not for a slightly weak knee that tends to have me holding back a bit on those kind of exercises.

I think it's time for us to re evaluate the ability of people who are overweight to gain muscle at a deficit. I think that the support of a large and robust fat metabolism is a real game changer when it comes to muscle building in a deficit. If one does not overwhelm the fat metabolism with large energy demands too often and eats a lot of protein. I think that appreciable growth can be seen at a deficit. Not only that but this is an excellent way to lose weight. As it forces the body to rely on that fat metabolism for a great deal of its expenditure. Which would also explain why I've managed to lose weight so consistently.

I'm not trying to show off here but honestly I think that a lot of big guys and gals like me who start with 100lbs or more to lose could really benefit from this approach. It has served me very well. And I would like some honest critique from people who know what they are talking about. People who just chime in with the age old "u cant build muscle in a deficit" rubbish will be politely ignored by me. Save from this admonishment to question what they know every now and again.

CrappyMornings

I've been doing Stronglifts while eating at a small deficit while trying to meet around or at 1g protein per LBM.. So far I haven't noticed any negatives (it's been a month) and my arms, butt, legs and thighs have all firmed up a lot. I've also seen a dramatic drop of fat from various areas and the cool thing being that I gained back to 220lbs when I was depressed after dropping to 185lbs. I'm currently at 197 and I look better now than before without the weight lifting and cardio. There is no way that lifting is anything but a huge benefit to weight loss. Plus, because I'm heavier I've always been a little stronger and as such hopefully on my way down I'll be able to keep the strength I already have.

I just failed out on my overhead press at the 4th and 5th set @ 65lbs and I couldn't be happier.. The confidence you feel from lifting, the energy I feel unless I'm sore from pushing past a previous limit. It's all been incredible. I feel like all of the years I've been cutting down from around 310lbs I was just being told a lot of crap about how it was a waste of energy and time to lift!

MrGonzo05

I think it's time for us to re evaluate the ability of people who are overweight to gain muscle at a deficit.

No need to reevaluate. I already accepted it.

DavPul

I think it's time for us to re evaluate the ability of people who are overweight to gain muscle at a deficit.

You go ahead without me. I've already done all my over thinking for this century.

TMM211073

I've been eating at a deficit for 21 months now, losing over 150lb & my muscle mass has increased by about 13% in this time (sorry can't remember the exact figure) so it is possible to build muscle in a calorie deficit - it always has been, but I don't restrict my calories a great deal - so long as the numbers remain green, I remain happy.

Well done on your loss so far OP - you've done fantastically well

xXx

ana3067

You can build up strength on a deficit regardless of starting weight. Couple that with newbie gains and water retention within the muscles and this probably explains a lot of your experiences.

Also, your time it took to double your deadlift weight isn't that staggering considering you started at ~45lbs. I mean, I have been lifting off and on for a few years and this past summer I doubled my deadlift - big difference being that, although at a deficit, I monitor my macros. So your progress is great, it's just not extraordinary as far as speed of development goes, and isn't unique to someone your size.

So i mean, just saying... don't expect to be continuing to make as much/quick progress over the entirety of your deficit, as the less weight you are lifting the easier it is to increase regularly compared to reaching a heavier weight. But in a deficit you also have slower recovery time, and just less energy. It'd be interesting to see how someone at your stats who lifted for a few years and then worked on losing body fat would compare.

SoLongAndThanksForAllTheFish

Its really a MFP myth, its not something that's even close to a rule, nor widely accepted that you cannot build any muscle on a deficit. However, it is very difficult to do, especially the lower your body fat percent goes, and next to impossible to "prove" how much is a muscle gain and how much is a "re-wiring firing pattern gain". Though the MFP myth that you cannot build muscle on a deficit is just that, a myth, what you describe is no "proof", but subjective experiential opinion.

It is very hard to actually build more muscle on a deficit, and what you describe from 20kg to 45kg deadlift for your size is easily explained by re-wiring of firing patterns...after all, you CAN dead lift even more than that with your body mass, since you are able to accelerate your body upwards against gravity from the floor, and you only fire a small percentage of your muscle fibers in any contraction, your muscles are capable of much more. In fact your entire increase in dead lifting from 20kg to 45kg can be assigned to the fact you lost 106lbs according to your profile, so you should be able to be lifting at least 106 more pounds...your dead lift should be up +40kg at least... Anyways, I'm not trying to take the fact that you can build some muscle away from you, and what you did so far is great, but I'm just pointing out the reasoning here is very flawed and what you said is not evidence. Yes, even though I know you can build on a deficit.

I also know from experience you can build muscle on a deficit, but that this is easily, EASILY knocked out by slipping on your diet and training: reducing protein, causing the deficit to go too high, reducing lifting frequency...from my experience, all of these precipitate loss of that strength quickly while on a deficit, much faster than maintaining, and while on a surplus how much they matter is loosened a bit more. The margins on a deficit are much finer, and they become even more fine as you lower your body fat percentage. Now that doesn't mean you can't gain muscle, or won't still gain strength, and you WILL gain more strength. In fact I'm not joking, you easily can dead lift much more than 45kg if you can get your head around it, just by your past weight and current dead lift, without any health conditions, you can make big gains at your stage just by changing your...thoughts...and firing patterns. Its hard to tease apart what exactly is what percent of each, so difficult without a completely controlled environment that none of us have, and as you get leaner and leaner and more and more trained, it gets harder and harder to achieve... it becomes much easier to conclude "you cant gain muscle on a deficit"... make sense?

I'd much rather everyone strive for difficult muscular gain than believe the myth, and reap the easy and real benefits of exercise, maintaining more of your muscle and becoming stronger...maybe you might not technically gain much actual physical muscle fiber weight, but its a completely irrelevant question. (Not to mention wrong ) Even if your diet and training is horrible, you help to stem a possible drastic muscle loss from ever happening, and have all the benefits of exercise you wouldn't have by "waiting until I'm leaner because I heard I cant build muscle on a deficit". This I think is the conclusion many draw from the "no muscle building on a deficit" myth, and it can be pretty damaging to newbies to go that course of action.

getrealgirl

I have to agree with you and would add that I don't think you have to be morbidly obese or even extremely overweight for this to occur. There are probably a zillion people who will disagree, but I do believe you can add muscle while eating at a deficit. I have lost 15 lbs and have started back up the scale while eating at a deficit. I can assure you, the weight I have put back on is nothing, but muscle. I have abs and quads now and very little of anything for "padding".

Running_From_Zombies

I think it's time for us to re evaluate the ability of people who are overweight to gain muscle at a deficit.

This has been working for me as well. I'm a big believer in, "if it works for you, do it".

sijomial

Well done OP, you are doing a great job.
There is an unfortunate tendency for some people propagate the idea that any deficit makes muscle gain impossible without realising that the individual context is vastly different from person to person. Or perhaps they don't appreciate the word "impossible" is an absolute term!

A male, fat, under-trained, young person with good genetics is going to have a hugely different response to a female, lean, fully-trained, older person obviously.

It's very easy to make muscle building "impossible" with huge deficits, poor training, inadequate protein but you have those aspects covered.

Very thoughtful contribution from 'stroutman81' (@ July 2, 2014 3:20 AM) of this thread which you might find interesting.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1339511-skinny-fat-muscle-gain-or-fat-loss

RHachicho

Nice to know some people have had similar experiences However I do not consider my progress to be extraordinary as I believe ana3067 put it. I just don't think I could have done it without putting on at least a little muscle in the right places. I don't want this to become a contest. What i did doesn't make me a special snowflake. Yeah sure I started lifting at a low weight. But bear in mind that at the start of my program I couldn't even do a proper body-weight squat that's how fat and weak I was XD. And I did say that I would probably me lifting more but being overweight for a long time leaves it's marks on you. mine are bunions a dodgy ankle and a dodgy knee. So yeah some days my dead lifts and squats go awesome. Other days I'm halfway through my third set there is a click from inside my knee joint somewhere a surge of pain and that's it for the leg based heavy lifts for today lol. Which is incredibly frustrating since I have to plan my workouts around the possibility of my knee goin wonky lol.

I guess it just frustrates me when people ask for advice and people give them absolutes or info that might not actually apply to the person they are talking to. I lifted to retain muscle mass and because I actually discovered I like lifting heavy stuff. If I had been motivated by the desire to build muscle I might not have started. Or been frustrated with it. You can call it over thinking if you like. But I think quite a few people would benefit from the encouragement as opposed to the flat denials.

itsbasschick

maybe so, but i'm over 55, 5' 3 1/2" and female, eat 1200 net calories per day and i have put on a noticeable amount of muscle in the last 3 months. my quads and calves have some detail and are more muscular, and just about every muscle i have is stronger...

A male, fat, under-trained, young person with good genetics is going to have a hugely different response to a female, lean, fully-trained, older person obviously.

LiftAllThePizzas

maybe so, but i'm over 55, 5' 3 1/2" and female, eat 1200 net calories per day and i have put on a noticeable amount of muscle in the last 3 months. my quads and calves have some detail and are more muscular, and just about every muscle i have is stronger...

A male, fat, under-trained, young person with good genetics is going to have a hugely different response to a female, lean, fully-trained, older person obviously.

How have you determined that this increase in strength is from increased muscle mass instead of neural adaptation, and this appearance of "more muscular" is from increased muscle mass and not from fat loss?

CrusaderSam

Yeah I started lifting when I was about 300 lbs and had a hard time pressing 20lb dumbbells. When I hit my goal of 170 I could press 110's for 5. Good thing I was to stupid to know you couldn't gain any muscle on a deficit, oh boy do I have egg on my face now that I know better. It is always better to trust unseen internet gurus over your own eyes. Yeah I just got stronger and gained no muscle because everyone can press 110 dumbbells or bench 245 as a noob on their first or 2nd workout.

You like myself are an over thinker and you will not change this myth anytime soon and if you try to people will come out of no where so full of hate you wont believe. I also think starting strength and most 5x5 programs suck. I can already see the daggers coming out so my only advice, just keep doing what works for you and get you knee looked at.

sijomial

maybe so, but i'm over 55, 5' 3 1/2" and female, eat 1200 net calories per day and i have put on a noticeable amount of muscle in the last 3 months. my quads and calves have some detail and are more muscular, and just about every muscle i have is stronger...

A male, fat, under-trained, young person with good genetics is going to have a hugely different response to a female, lean, fully-trained, older person obviously.

Neither strength or muscle definition improvements guarantee muscle gain.
You've lost a load of weight ( :flowerforyou: ) so of course your definition is better.
Strength and muscle size are only loosely related - I increased strength by 63% for bench press in a year but I certainly didn't gain 63% more muscle! Hardly any difference in pectoral size.

Not saying you haven't gained muscle but when I say I gained muscle in a deficit I back up my statement with results from two types of body analysis and measured decrease in waist and concurrent increase in upper leg and upper arm measurements.
Of course definition improved, mostly from fat loss for sure though some muscles visibly larger.

I'm a very similar age so I'm certainly not saying 50+ means you can't improve body composition.

PoesyP

I'm a big believer that there's a huge difference in what processes go on in a lean body and in a seriously obese body and what is true for one is not neccesarily true for the other.

rogerOb1

Its really a MFP myth,

*Points angrily*
HERESY!

rogerOb1

maybe so, but i'm over 55, 5' 3 1/2" and female, eat 1200 net calories per day and i have put on a noticeable amount of muscle in the last 3 months. my quads and calves have some detail and are more muscular, and just about every muscle i have is stronger...

A male, fat, under-trained, young person with good genetics is going to have a hugely different response to a female, lean, fully-trained, older person obviously.

How have you determined that this increase in strength is from increased muscle mass instead of neural adaptation, and this appearance of "more muscular" is from increased muscle mass and not from fat loss?

That's what I'd like to know.

Im pretty sure there was a woman of near 40 who claimed that she had put on 15lbs of muscle in a few months (6 maybe) while eating at a deficit. Its.....unlikely......

eric_sg61

Beginners can get noob gains from doing just about anything lifting-wise and gain some new muscle since it is a new stress to the body. After that period, the body does not adapt to an energy deficit by creating more metabolically expensive material. Even experienced competitive bodybuilders on drugs lose some muscle while dieting.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html

SunofaBeach14

I really don't understand this discussion on MFP as the ones debating it seem to miss the exceptions to the "rule" that one can't gain muscle mass in a deficit. There are three that I'm aware of: (1) PEDs, (2) an untrained and overweight person at the beginning of a training program, i.e. "newbie gains." and (3) a person who has laid off for a while but coming back to training. And, when it comes to MFP, number (2) is very common here and would describe most people asking this question. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I don't think that it's necessary to overcomplicate this subject beyond that.

DavPul

I really don't understand this discussion on MFP as the ones debating it seem to miss the exceptions to the "rule" that one can't gain muscle mass in a deficit. There are three that I'm aware of: (1) PEDs, (2) an untrained and overweight person at the beginning of a training program, i.e. "newbie gains." and (3) a person who has laid off for a while but coming back to training. And, when it comes to MFP, number (2) is very common here and would describe most people asking this question. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I don't think that it's necessary to overcome locate this subject beyond that.

This is what it is 99.999% of the time and yet everyone on both sides of the issue want to pretend that this place is bodybuilding.com and the forum regulars act like the poster has been training for years and already maximized potential and the poster acts like they can remain in a deficit and keep gaining mass until they earn their ifbb pro card. Back and forth these threads go over and over again.

Azdak

Well done OP, you are doing a great job.
There is an unfortunate tendency for some people propagate the idea that any deficit makes muscle gain impossible without realising that the individual context is vastly different from person to person. Or perhaps they don't appreciate the word "impossible" is an absolute term!

A male, fat, under-trained, young person with good genetics is going to have a hugely different response to a female, lean, fully-trained, older person obviously.

It's very easy to make muscle building "impossible" with huge deficits, poor training, inadequate protein but you have those aspects covered.

Very thoughtful contribution from 'stroutman81' (@ July 2, 2014 3:20 AM) of this thread which you might find interesting.
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1339511-skinny-fat-muscle-gain-or-fat-loss

I have said this before, but too many discussions about fitness and exercise are skewed from the perspective of elites rather than the average person.

DjinnMarie

It's pretty much been covered. It's affectionately known as "newb gains". If you continue to eat at a deficit and lift, your gains will eventually stall. For females I've noticed it's around the 6-month to a year mark. I have been able to eat around maintenance and gain muscle, but it's dauntingly slow, no matter how hard I go at the gym. Adding just 200 calories above maintenance gives far better results in muscle gains.

Basically, if you are gaining strength and progressing when eating at a deficit, then great, keep it up. However you will eventually stall, and when that happens you may benefit from a few hundred calorie increase. Just something to keep in mind.

rogerOb1

I really don't understand this discussion on MFP as the ones debating it seem to miss the exceptions to the "rule" that one can't gain muscle mass in a deficit. There are three that I'm aware of: (1) PEDs, (2) an untrained and overweight person at the beginning of a training program, i.e. "newbie gains." and (3) a person who has laid off for a while but coming back to training. And, when it comes to MFP, number (2) is very common here and would describe most people asking this question. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I don't think that it's necessary to overcome locate this subject beyond that.

This is what it is 99.999% of the time and yet everyone on both sides of the issue want to pretend that this place is bodybuilding.com and the forum regulars act like the poster has been training for years and already maximized potential and the poster acts like they can remain in a deficit and keep gaining mass until they earn their ifbb pro card. Back and forth these threads go over and over again.

Lol! I can buy that - theres fault on both sides of the debate.

Sonofabeach- over-simplifications will still lead to more questions, as people will end up thinking they are doing it wrong if they aren't picking up 20lbs of lean body mass after a few months of lifting on a deficit.

kgeyser

There is a such thing as newbie gains. However, I think it is important to note that in MFP land, saying "you can't build muscle in a deficit" is usually in response to someone saying "the scale isn't moving, I know it's because I'm putting on muscle and that's hiding the fat loss."

People here often confuse an increase in strength and visually being able to see more muscle definition (due to fat loss) as "adding muscle." Getting stronger doesn't mean increasing muscle mass.

WalkingAlong

The most common situation I see here with it is someone new to dieting takes on a serious new exercise regimen and deficit eating and loses quickly for a week or two and then plateaus. Maybe they're building muscle that's offsetting fat loss or maybe it's due to water issues. But either way the net effect is the same-- they're doing a good thing for their muscles and the scale is a bad indicator of progress during that time, because of it.

But then they post for advice and often get told it's because they're eating too little or too much, with the justification that "you can't build muscle at a deficit".

A lot of published diet plans don't add in exercise for a while, I think because of this. People find it discouraging for the scale to not move when the diet is new and they're not sure if it's going to work for them.

Good work, OP!

SoLongAndThanksForAllTheFish

I really don't understand this discussion on MFP as the ones debating it seem to miss the exceptions to the "rule" that one can't gain muscle mass in a deficit. There are three that I'm aware of: (1) PEDs, (2) an untrained and overweight person at the beginning of a training program, i.e. "newbie gains." and (3) a person who has laid off for a while but coming back to training. And, when it comes to MFP, number (2) is very common here and would describe most people asking this question. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I don't think that it's necessary to overcome locate this subject beyond that.

This is what it is 99.999% of the time and yet everyone on both sides of the issue want to pretend that this place is bodybuilding.com and the forum regulars act like the poster has been training for years and already maximized potential and the poster acts like they can remain in a deficit and keep gaining mass until they earn their ifbb pro card. Back and forth these threads go over and over again.

This wouldn't happen if people here acknowledged the reverse "rule", which is: Unless you don't belong in one of the above widely circumscribed, ill defined, non-studied and quantified made up categories, you CAN gain muscle on a deficit. In making any "rule", you don't say "Well, 99.99% of the time people can do this, so lets say that you CANT DO IT, unless you are in the 99.99% category". Which is what the "you cant build muscle on a deficit" people are doing....

Let's just take this one "category", "2" above, which can be made to describe almost all of MFP, at least that's where anyone who subscribes to the "can't gain muscle on a deficit" always puts anyone who has any notable increase: "newbie gains". Where is the delineation of this "group"? How many pounds must you lift? Percentage of bodyweight? Years of training= 2yrs +/-3.5mo?? No...everyone can stretch any made up border to fit any person typically. Which means its not a category at all, its just like "clean eating" or "bro science". Just one of those vague terms used to describe anything you'd like really that have no official circumscribed meaning.

At what point does your body realize its not a newbie anymore and cannot make more "newbie gains"? Mine must be confused too since I'm not a newbie, and I lift probably close to or above your lifts (maybe you are a newbie too then?). Same situation with the guy above who went from 20lb OHP to 110lb OHP dumb-bells above. I think most would say probably above 60lbs OHP dumbbells is not "newbie gains", and 99.999% would agree 100lb OHP dumbbells and above are not "newbie gains", yet his body was clearly confused and "thought it still could make newbie gains so it did?"... Its pretty clear that this "rule" is not a rule after all, and in fact is the opposite: You CAN build some muscle on a deficit UNLESS you have one of a variety of conditions or factors in your training that prevent you from building muscle, which includes highly trained, near genetic potential, etc etc etc...

JoRocka

I really don't understand this discussion on MFP as the ones debating it seem to miss the exceptions to the "rule" that one can't gain muscle mass in a deficit. There are three that I'm aware of: (1) PEDs, (2) an untrained and overweight person at the beginning of a training program, i.e. "newbie gains." and (3) a person who has laid off for a while but coming back to training. And, when it comes to MFP, number (2) is very common here and would describe most people asking this question. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I don't think that it's necessary to overcome locate this subject beyond that.

This is what it is 99.999% of the time and yet everyone on both sides of the issue want to pretend that this place is bodybuilding.com and the forum regulars act like the poster has been training for years and already maximized potential and the poster acts like they can remain in a deficit and keep gaining mass until they earn their ifbb pro card. Back and forth these threads go over and over again.

Lol! I can buy that - theres fault on both sides of the debate.

Sonofabeach- over-simplifications will still lead to more questions, as people will end up thinking they are doing it wrong if they aren't picking up 20lbs of lean body mass after a few months of lifting on a deficit.

perhaps instead of over thinking it they just went and did the thing it would be less of an issue.

paralysis by analysis seems to run rampant here as well.

DavPul

^Agreed Jo. That's why I'm usually answering with "just go work out" half the time.

SunofaBeach14

I really don't understand this discussion on MFP as the ones debating it seem to miss the exceptions to the "rule" that one can't gain muscle mass in a deficit. There are three that I'm aware of: (1) PEDs, (2) an untrained and overweight person at the beginning of a training program, i.e. "newbie gains." and (3) a person who has laid off for a while but coming back to training. And, when it comes to MFP, number (2) is very common here and would describe most people asking this question. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I don't think that it's necessary to overcome locate this subject beyond that.

This is what it is 99.999% of the time and yet everyone on both sides of the issue want to pretend that this place is bodybuilding.com and the forum regulars act like the poster has been training for years and already maximized potential and the poster acts like they can remain in a deficit and keep gaining mass until they earn their ifbb pro card. Back and forth these threads go over and over again.

Lol! I can buy that - theres fault on both sides of the debate.

Sonofabeach- over-simplifications will still lead to more questions, as people will end up thinking they are doing it wrong if they aren't picking up 20lbs of lean body mass after a few months of lifting on a deficit.

perhaps instead of over thinking it they just went and did the thing it would be less of an issue.

paralysis by analysis seems to run rampant here as well.

Yup. KISS, paralysis by analysis, avoid spinning your wheels, focus on what matters . . . however, you say, it works for a reason. You're putting your energy in the areas that matter most. For a newbie, or even an intermediate lifter, to focus on things that matter only to seasoned bodybuilders just makes no sense.

JoRocka

indeed.

and really for most people "just not being fat" or "getting a little fitter"... it doesn't' matter if it's neural adaptation, newb gains- or the minority who are gaining some size...

they are all in a place where "JUST DO WORK SON" is the right answer- it doesn't matter what it's called- just go do the work- if you like the way you look GREAT. If you're lifts are going up GREAT- who cares what its' called. And yes there is a time and place for talking a bout gains- but for most people- just go do work.

I can't remember a time up until the past year when I was actively trying to bulk (specifically to hit a new dead lift personal)when I cared anything about "gaining muscle" or "losing fat". I was looking better- and lifting better. Didn't care about anything else- it just wasn't relevant.