cutting carbs
Replies
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In to here (sic) about the studies and the studies of studies and counter studies on the Brain (sic).
Then I might mention that ketones are actually made by all on all days - that one does not need a ketogenic diet for ketone production, even someone on a high carb diet will be producing ketones in considerable quantities during the fasting sleep cycle.
So tennisdude, when you come back with evidence that ketosis helps brain function, consider the challenge that this doesn't necessitate low carbs to get those available. Context. Furthermore, there is evidence for rapid problem resolution on caffeine, nicotine, shunted short term oxygen deprivation, high Po^2, amphetamines, beta channel blockers... Etc. and yet some/most of these are a bad idea in excess or as long term use and certainly not part of a weight loss program. While low carb may make sense for some people - the whole "brain functions optimally" under x or w is going leave you under the rain with no umbrella. All wet.
Brb, gonna inject some acetone to get that ketone mind meld thing going.
It is unlikely the brain will use much or any ketones when it has an ample supply of glucose. Therefore it will likely not benefit from the positive affects ketones and lactate can have on brain function.
But clearly you are well informed in this area and know that already.0 -
Legit question - how can you eat lots of veggies and some fruit and only be at 10 - 15g carbs a day?
>=300 grams a day of <=5% carbohydrate vegetables and berries will do that.
Depends on your defintion of "lots" I suspect.0 -
In to here (sic) about the studies and the studies of studies and counter studies on the Brain (sic).
Then I might mention that ketones are actually made by all on all days - that one does not need a ketogenic diet for ketone production, even someone on a high carb diet will be producing ketones in considerable quantities during the fasting sleep cycle.
So tennisdude, when you come back with evidence that ketosis helps brain function, consider the challenge that this doesn't necessitate low carbs to get those available. Context. Furthermore, there is evidence for rapid problem resolution on caffeine, nicotine, shunted short term oxygen deprivation, high Po^2, amphetamines, beta channel blockers... Etc. and yet some/most of these are a bad idea in excess or as long term use and certainly not part of a weight loss program. While low carb may make sense for some people - the whole "brain functions optimally" under x or w is going leave you under the rain with no umbrella. All wet.
Brb, gonna inject some acetone to get that ketone mind meld thing going.
It is unlikely the brain will use much or any ketones when it has an ample supply of glucose. Therefore it will likely not benefit from the positive affects ketones and lactate can have on brain function.
But clearly you are well informed in this area and know that already.
Even during longer term fasting glucose is produced by the liver in "ample" supplies to avoid hypoglycemia. So I'm not sure what you are trying to say as ketones and glucose are both used in the citric acid cycle of the brain based on substrate availability.
What I do know is that ketone bodies are incapable of maintaining or restoring normal cerebral function in the absence of glucose in the blood. This is just basic glucose crash physiology. Although ketones may partially replace glucose, they can't fully satisfy the cerebral energy needs in the absence of some glucose - you have a liver, it's one of the most basic functions to regulate plasma glucose. All these talks about ketosis and ketones as ideal fail at taking a look at the big picture.
Ketones are present in all humans on a daily basis in changing rates.
Glucose will be produced by the liver in the absence of dietary sources.
You can't live without either.0 -
In to here (sic) about the studies and the studies of studies and counter studies on the Brain (sic).
Then I might mention that ketones are actually made by all on all days - that one does not need a ketogenic diet for ketone production, even someone on a high carb diet will be producing ketones in considerable quantities during the fasting sleep cycle.
So tennisdude, when you come back with evidence that ketosis helps brain function, consider the challenge that this doesn't necessitate low carbs to get those available. Context. Furthermore, there is evidence for rapid problem resolution on caffeine, nicotine, shunted short term oxygen deprivation, high Po^2, amphetamines, beta channel blockers... Etc. and yet some/most of these are a bad idea in excess or as long term use and certainly not part of a weight loss program. While low carb may make sense for some people - the whole "brain functions optimally" under x or w is going leave you under the rain with no umbrella. All wet.
Brb, gonna inject some acetone to get that ketone mind meld thing going.
It is unlikely the brain will use much or any ketones when it has an ample supply of glucose. Therefore it will likely not benefit from the positive affects ketones and lactate can have on brain function.
But clearly you are well informed in this area and know that already.
Even during longer term fasting glucose is produced by the liver in "ample" supplies to avoid hypoglycemia. So I'm not sure what you are trying to say as ketones and glucose are both used in the citric acid cycle of the brain based on substrate availability.
What I do know is that ketone bodies are incapable of maintaining or restoring normal cerebral function in the absence of glucose in the blood. This is just basic glucose crash physiology. Although ketones may partially replace glucose, they can't fully satisfy the cerebral energy needs in the absence of some glucose - you have a liver, it's one of the most basic functions to regulate plasma glucose. All these talks about ketosis and ketones as ideal fail at taking a look at the big picture.
Ketones are present in all humans on a daily basis in changing rates.
Glucose will be produced by the liver in the absence of dietary sources.
You can't live without either.
Who is saying you can live without either?
I don't think you have quite understood what I have said. I am not claiming the brain can function on Ketones alone - that is indeed impossible as parts of the brain can only be fuelled by glucose.
On a low carb or ketogentic diet the brain can function optimally on 30g approx of glucose (along with ketones and lactate) instead of the 120g approx. when fuelled (almost) solely by glucose!
Of course if you have actual studies(instead of opinion) on subjects who are keto adapted proving this incorrect - I would be happy to read them!0 -
even someone on a high carb diet will be producing ketones in considerable quantities during the fasting sleep cycle.
Really ? "Serum BHB increases in response to fasting, but should not exceed 0.4 mmol/L following an overnight fast (up to 12 hours)." - http://www.mayomedicallaboratories.com/test-catalog/Clinical+and+Interpretive/9251
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1743-7075-6-52.pdf and others report low serum B-OHB levels after overnight fast - 0.07 or so in moderate carb reduction and 0.2 mmol/l in more restricted carb eaters.
The flux of ketones into the brain takes off at higher levels of ketones, over 1.0 mmol/l B-OHB from memory.0 -
I love this thread. Anecdotal claims and allusion to studies that low carb and keto lead to the most optimal brain function, in posts filled with misspellings and grammatical errors. Never change, MFP.hello , im sure this topic has been hit 1000 times but i cant find info that fits me , im a 29 year old man 5ft 10 and 245lbs , obese , iv been doin my fitness pal for a while with some results but always gain it back , for the last 2 weeks iv been hitting my calorie goal and working out 5 days a week burning 4-500 calories a day but not losing weight , so this week i will be focusing on cutting carbs also , i have been consuming 250-300g of carbs and i want to cut to 100 is this a good number ? should i try less? also iv seen studys that say go low carb 5 days then moderate carb for 2 anyone try this?
OP, if you're losing weight and gaining it back, then the problem is consistency with a calorie deficit. Unless you have a medical issue you haven't shared with us, going low carb isn't going to solve anything if you aren't going to stay within your calorie goal. If you want to open your diary, we might be able to help you further.0 -
I love this thread. Anecdotal claims and allusion to studies that low carb and keto lead to the most optimal brain function, in posts filled with misspellings and grammatical errors. Never change, MFP.hello , im sure this topic has been hit 1000 times but i cant find info that fits me , im a 29 year old man 5ft 10 and 245lbs , obese , iv been doin my fitness pal for a while with some results but always gain it back , for the last 2 weeks iv been hitting my calorie goal and working out 5 days a week burning 4-500 calories a day but not losing weight , so this week i will be focusing on cutting carbs also , i have been consuming 250-300g of carbs and i want to cut to 100 is this a good number ? should i try less? also iv seen studys that say go low carb 5 days then moderate carb for 2 anyone try this?
OP, if you're losing weight and gaining it back, then the problem is consistency with a calorie deficit. Unless you have a medical issue you haven't shared with us, going low carb isn't going to solve anything if you aren't going to stay within your calorie goal. If you want to open your diary, we might be able to help you further.
And now add to that - elaboration of a previous comment!
Now the circle is complete!0 -
even someone on a high carb diet will be producing ketones in considerable quantities during the fasting sleep cycle.
Really ? "Serum BHB increases in response to fasting, but should not exceed 0.4 mmol/L following an overnight fast (up to 12 hours)." - http://www.mayomedicallaboratories.com/test-catalog/Clinical+and+Interpretive/9251
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1743-7075-6-52.pdf and others report low serum B-OHB levels after overnight fast - 0.07 or so in moderate carb reduction and 0.2 mmol/l in more restricted carb eaters.
The flux of ketones into the brain takes off at higher levels of ketones, over 1.0 mmol/l B-OHB from memory.
I don't see how this counters what I've said. If there is an increase in plasma concentration then utilization is lower than production.
General normal plasma levels are about 1 mg/dl (quick check) or ~0.1 mmol/l so from your quote that's a 400% increase in plasma levels available during 12 hours of sleep. That's being used by tissue + respiration, since we general do not excrete measurable levels of ketones (as I understand it). While ketones transport will certainly "take off" at high concentrations it is still going on during long inter-meal fasting.0 -
hello , im sure this topic has been hit 1000 times but i cant find info that fits me , im a 29 year old man 5ft 10 and 245lbs , obese , iv been doin my fitness pal for a while with some results but always gain it back , for the last 2 weeks iv been hitting my calorie goal and working out 5 days a week burning 4-500 calories a day but not losing weight , so this week i will be focusing on cutting carbs also , i have been consuming 250-300g of carbs and i want to cut to 100 is this a good number ? should i try less? also iv seen studys that say go low carb 5 days then moderate carb for 2 anyone try this?
Op
1. On high-carbohydrate intakes, do you find yourself getting pumped and full or sloppy and bloated?
2. When you eat a large carbohydrate meal, do you find that you have steady and stable energy levels or do you get an energy crash/sleep and get hungry about an hour later?0 -
Instead of saying "I'm going to cut carbs", I'd say: I'm going to eat more leafy green vegetables, and whole foods. I'm going to eat more "one ingredient" foods, including my meats. I'm going to eat fresh fruit every day.
Fill your diet with foods you want to be eating. The rest will take care of itself.0 -
However, eating more nutrient dense plants, and fewer heavily processed convenience foods may make it easier to stay within your allotted calories. Many folks find that reliance on heavily processed packaged convenience foods (typically high in sugar and fast burning carbs) make them hungrier.I love this thread. Anecdotal claims and allusion to studies that low carb and keto lead to the most optimal brain function, in posts filled with misspellings and grammatical errors. Never change, MFP.hello , im sure this topic has been hit 1000 times but i cant find info that fits me , im a 29 year old man 5ft 10 and 245lbs , obese , iv been doin my fitness pal for a while with some results but always gain it back , for the last 2 weeks iv been hitting my calorie goal and working out 5 days a week burning 4-500 calories a day but not losing weight , so this week i will be focusing on cutting carbs also , i have been consuming 250-300g of carbs and i want to cut to 100 is this a good number ? should i try less? also iv seen studys that say go low carb 5 days then moderate carb for 2 anyone try this?
OP, if you're losing weight and gaining it back, then the problem is consistency with a calorie deficit. Unless you have a medical issue you haven't shared with us, going low carb isn't going to solve anything if you aren't going to stay within your calorie goal. If you want to open your diary, we might be able to help you further.0 -
In to here (sic) about the studies and the studies of studies and counter studies on the Brain (sic).
Then I might mention that ketones are actually made by all on all days - that one does not need a ketogenic diet for ketone production, even someone on a high carb diet will be producing ketones in considerable quantities during the fasting sleep cycle.
So tennisdude, when you come back with evidence that ketosis helps brain function, consider the challenge that this doesn't necessitate low carbs to get those available. Context. Furthermore, there is evidence for rapid problem resolution on caffeine, nicotine, shunted short term oxygen deprivation, high Po^2, amphetamines, beta channel blockers... Etc. and yet some/most of these are a bad idea in excess or as long term use and certainly not part of a weight loss program. While low carb may make sense for some people - the whole "brain functions optimally" under x or w is going leave you under the rain with no umbrella. All wet.
Brb, gonna inject some acetone to get that ketone mind meld thing going.
It is unlikely the brain will use much or any ketones when it has an ample supply of glucose. Therefore it will likely not benefit from the positive affects ketones and lactate can have on brain function.
But clearly you are well informed in this area and know that already.
Even during longer term fasting glucose is produced by the liver in "ample" supplies to avoid hypoglycemia. So I'm not sure what you are trying to say as ketones and glucose are both used in the citric acid cycle of the brain based on substrate availability.
What I do know is that ketone bodies are incapable of maintaining or restoring normal cerebral function in the absence of glucose in the blood. This is just basic glucose crash physiology. Although ketones may partially replace glucose, they can't fully satisfy the cerebral energy needs in the absence of some glucose - you have a liver, it's one of the most basic functions to regulate plasma glucose. All these talks about ketosis and ketones as ideal fail at taking a look at the big picture.
Ketones are present in all humans on a daily basis in changing rates.
Glucose will be produced by the liver in the absence of dietary sources.
You can't live without either.
Who is saying you can live without either?
I don't think you have quite understood what I have said. I am not claiming the brain can function on Ketones alone - that is indeed impossible as parts of the brain can only be fuelled by glucose.
On a low carb or ketogentic diet the brain can function optimally on 30g approx of glucose (along with ketones and lactate) instead of the 120g approx. when fuelled (almost) solely by glucose!
Of course if you have actual studies(instead of opinion) on subjects who are keto adapted proving this incorrect - I would be happy to read them!
Look, you are stating that optimal brain function at 30g. It's your claim to back up. It's not up to me (or others) to prove the negative.
I'm just stating that if ketones have any possible role in protecting brain tissue, glucagon or insulin regulation, etc... they are already generally present in non-low dietary carbing individuals. If you are making claims about their importance for "optimal brain function" you are going to have to go further than staring they are useful, you actually need to demonstrate a test on humans in normal physiological conditions between low and high carbs (preferably double blind, cross-controlled). Frankly, I'm open, I haven't seen it yet in any of your posts.
I'm not making claims, so I'm not in need of posting studies.
Second, I'm also inviting you and others on the keto-bandwagon to consider that there are a variety of reasons why a low-carb diet is not the ideal solution for everyone. A simplistic approach (gotta get those ketones up) that doesn't take into consideration, the big picture.
What does this suggest to you? Based on your "optimal brain function on ketones"?
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If you haven't noticed already, you're arguing with a person who will actually argue with you for the sake of arguing and after pages and pages of posts it's revealed he never actually had a stance but was just debating for the purpose of debating. You won't get the studies you request from him or a debate where he isn't selecting 1 or 2 words in your post to single out to continue debating.In to here (sic) about the studies and the studies of studies and counter studies on the Brain (sic).
Then I might mention that ketones are actually made by all on all days - that one does not need a ketogenic diet for ketone production, even someone on a high carb diet will be producing ketones in considerable quantities during the fasting sleep cycle.
So tennisdude, when you come back with evidence that ketosis helps brain function, consider the challenge that this doesn't necessitate low carbs to get those available. Context. Furthermore, there is evidence for rapid problem resolution on caffeine, nicotine, shunted short term oxygen deprivation, high Po^2, amphetamines, beta channel blockers... Etc. and yet some/most of these are a bad idea in excess or as long term use and certainly not part of a weight loss program. While low carb may make sense for some people - the whole "brain functions optimally" under x or w is going leave you under the rain with no umbrella. All wet.
Brb, gonna inject some acetone to get that ketone mind meld thing going.
It is unlikely the brain will use much or any ketones when it has an ample supply of glucose. Therefore it will likely not benefit from the positive affects ketones and lactate can have on brain function.
But clearly you are well informed in this area and know that already.
Even during longer term fasting glucose is produced by the liver in "ample" supplies to avoid hypoglycemia. So I'm not sure what you are trying to say as ketones and glucose are both used in the citric acid cycle of the brain based on substrate availability.
What I do know is that ketone bodies are incapable of maintaining or restoring normal cerebral function in the absence of glucose in the blood. This is just basic glucose crash physiology. Although ketones may partially replace glucose, they can't fully satisfy the cerebral energy needs in the absence of some glucose - you have a liver, it's one of the most basic functions to regulate plasma glucose. All these talks about ketosis and ketones as ideal fail at taking a look at the big picture.
Ketones are present in all humans on a daily basis in changing rates.
Glucose will be produced by the liver in the absence of dietary sources.
You can't live without either.
Who is saying you can live without either?
I don't think you have quite understood what I have said. I am not claiming the brain can function on Ketones alone - that is indeed impossible as parts of the brain can only be fuelled by glucose.
On a low carb or ketogentic diet the brain can function optimally on 30g approx of glucose (along with ketones and lactate) instead of the 120g approx. when fuelled (almost) solely by glucose!
Of course if you have actual studies(instead of opinion) on subjects who are keto adapted proving this incorrect - I would be happy to read them!
Look, you are stating that optimal brain function at 30g. It's your claim to back up. It's not up to me (or others) to prove the negative.
I'm just stating that if ketones have any possible role in protecting brain tissue, glucagon or insulin regulation, etc... they are already generally present in non-low dietary carbing individuals. If you are making claims about their importance for "optimal brain function" you are going to have to go further than staring they are useful, you actually need to demonstrate a test on humans in normal physiological conditions between low and high carbs (preferably double blind, cross-controlled). Frankly, I'm open, I haven't seen it yet in any of your posts.
I'm not making claims, so I'm not in need of posting studies.
Second, I'm also inviting you and others on the keto-bandwagon to consider that there are a variety of reasons why a low-carb diet is not the ideal solution for everyone. A simplistic approach (gotta get those ketones up) that doesn't take into consideration, the big picture.
What does this suggest to you? Based on your "optimal brain function on ketones"?
It really is just a waste of time.
It seems to be.
The links posted by him above - I reviewed them and they don't actually support the position that the brain functions optimally on kentones or a carb-reduced diet. It might be true but he's actually providing evidence that he has no evidence.0 -
Let's go look at some of the actual research on cognition and low fat or low carb diets....
Short term
http://ase.tufts.edu/psychology/spacelab/pubs/Atkins_Appetite_inpress.pdf
Apparently leads to memory impairment but less confusion and faster attention response with low carbing.To examine how a low-carbohydrate diet affects cognitive performance, women participated in one of two weight-loss diet regimens. Participants self-selected a low-carbohydrate (n=9) or a reduced-calorie balanced diet similar to that recommended by the American Dietetic Association (ADA diet) (n=10). Seventy-two hours before beginning their diets and then 48 h, 1, 2, and 3 weeks after starting, participants completed a battery of cognitive tasks assessing visuospatial memory, vigilance attention, memory span, a food-related paired-associates a food Stroop, and the Profile of Moods Scale (POMS) to assess subjective mood. Results showed that during complete withdrawal of dietary carbohydrate, low-carbohydrate dieters performed worse on memory-based tasks than ADA dieters. These impairments were ameliorated after reintroduction of carbohydrates. Low-carbohydrate dieters reported less confusion (POMS) and responded faster during an attention vigilance task (CPT) than ADA dieters. Hunger ratings did not differ between the two diet conditions. The present data show memory impairments during low-carbohydrate diets at a point when available glycogen stores would be at their lowest. A commonly held explanation based on preoccupation with food would not account for these findings. The results also suggest better vigilance attention and reduced self-reported confusion while on the low-carbohydrate diet, although not tied to a specific time point during the diet. Taken together the results suggest that weight-loss diet regimens differentially impact cognitive behavior.
Long term
http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1108558
No difference - actually losing weight helps cognitive function independent of low fat or low carb.Background Very low-carbohydrate (LC) diets are often used to promote weight loss, but the long-term effects on psychological function remain unknown.
Methods A total of 106 overweight and obese participants (mean [SE] age, 50.0 [0.8] years; mean [SE] body mass index [calculated as weight in kilograms divided by height in meters squared], 33.7 [0.4]) were randomly assigned either to an energy-restricted (approximately 1433-1672 kcal [to convert to kilojoules, multiply by 4.186]), planned isocaloric, very low-carbohydrate, high-fat (LC) diet or to a high-carbohydrate, low-fat (LF) diet for 1 year. Changes in body weight, psychological mood and well-being (Profile of Mood States, Beck Depression Inventory, and Spielberger State Anxiety Inventory scores), and cognitive functioning (working memory and speed of processing) were assessed.
Results By 1 year, the overall mean (SE) weight loss was 13.7 (1.8) kg, with no significant difference between groups (P = .26). Over the course of the study, there were significant time × diet interactions for Spielberger State Anxiety Inventory, Beck Depression Inventory, and Profile of Mood States scores for total mood disturbance, anger-hostility, confusion-bewilderment, and depression-dejection (P < .05) as a result of greater improvements in these psychological mood states for the LF diet compared with the LC diet. Working memory improved by 1 year (P < .001 for time), but speed of processing remained largely unchanged, with no effect of diet composition on either cognitive domain.
Conclusions Over 1 year, there was a favorable effect of an energy-restricted LF diet compared with an isocaloric LC diet on mood state and affect in overweight and obese individuals. Both diets had similar effects on working memory and speed of processing.
So far, the hypothesis that the brain "functions optimally on ketones" ie a low carb diet - can be tossed out from this research.
My other reading does suggest that low carb diets do have some possible value in certain disease states but that's not really the subject here.
There is also some evidence that low carb diets are a bad idea during brain development and for rats ...take that as you will.
Detrimental Effects of the Ketogenic Diet on Cognitive Function in Rats http://www.nature.com/pr/journal/v55/n3/full/pr200478a.html
I would not claim from that that low carbing is bad - but it does point out that when people tend to take religious positions around diet - low carb good anything else bad - fail to consider context.0 -
I think we all have to find what works for our bodies. Low carb works for me because I prefer the way I feel with a stable level of energy all day. I have even found I do not need to drink as much coffee or tea during the day. I also prefer low carb to migraines which I get when I eat a lot of carbs. I don't think it's the only way, but its definitely the right way for my body. I am low carb on the advice of several specialists.
I don't understand why so many people seem to be so anti-low carb. Here is another article I found doing a plain google search. This is from Psychology today and it discusses low carb from an evolutionary stand point.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201104/your-brain-ketones0 -
Anyone can use google and find proof of anything. Try pubmedI think we all have to find what works for our bodies. Low carb works for me because I prefer the way I feel with a stable level of energy all day. I have even found I do not need to drink as much coffee or tea during the day. I also prefer low carb to migraines which I get when I eat a lot of carbs. I don't think it's the only way, but its definitely the right way for my body. I am low carb on the advice of several specialists.
I don't understand why so many people seem to be so anti-low carb. Here is another article I found doing a plain google search. This is from Psychology today and it discusses low carb from an evolutionary stand point.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201104/your-brain-ketones0 -
Let's go look at some of the actual research on cognition and low fat or low carb diets....
Short term
http://ase.tufts.edu/psychology/spacelab/pubs/Atkins_Appetite_inpress.pdf
Apparently leads to memory impairment but less confusion and faster attention response with low carbing.To examine how a low-carbohydrate diet affects cognitive performance, women participated in one of two weight-loss diet regimens. Participants self-selected a low-carbohydrate (n=9) or a reduced-calorie balanced diet similar to that recommended by the American Dietetic Association (ADA diet) (n=10). Seventy-two hours before beginning their diets and then 48 h, 1, 2, and 3 weeks after starting, participants completed a battery of cognitive tasks assessing visuospatial memory, vigilance attention, memory span, a food-related paired-associates a food Stroop, and the Profile of Moods Scale (POMS) to assess subjective mood. Results showed that during complete withdrawal of dietary carbohydrate, low-carbohydrate dieters performed worse on memory-based tasks than ADA dieters. These impairments were ameliorated after reintroduction of carbohydrates. Low-carbohydrate dieters reported less confusion (POMS) and responded faster during an attention vigilance task (CPT) than ADA dieters. Hunger ratings did not differ between the two diet conditions. The present data show memory impairments during low-carbohydrate diets at a point when available glycogen stores would be at their lowest. A commonly held explanation based on preoccupation with food would not account for these findings. The results also suggest better vigilance attention and reduced self-reported confusion while on the low-carbohydrate diet, although not tied to a specific time point during the diet. Taken together the results suggest that weight-loss diet regimens differentially impact cognitive behavior.
Long term
http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1108558
No difference - actually losing weight helps cognitive function independent of low fat or low carb.Background Very low-carbohydrate (LC) diets are often used to promote weight loss, but the long-term effects on psychological function remain unknown.
Methods A total of 106 overweight and obese participants (mean [SE] age, 50.0 [0.8] years; mean [SE] body mass index [calculated as weight in kilograms divided by height in meters squared], 33.7 [0.4]) were randomly assigned either to an energy-restricted (approximately 1433-1672 kcal [to convert to kilojoules, multiply by 4.186]), planned isocaloric, very low-carbohydrate, high-fat (LC) diet or to a high-carbohydrate, low-fat (LF) diet for 1 year. Changes in body weight, psychological mood and well-being (Profile of Mood States, Beck Depression Inventory, and Spielberger State Anxiety Inventory scores), and cognitive functioning (working memory and speed of processing) were assessed.
Results By 1 year, the overall mean (SE) weight loss was 13.7 (1.8) kg, with no significant difference between groups (P = .26). Over the course of the study, there were significant time × diet interactions for Spielberger State Anxiety Inventory, Beck Depression Inventory, and Profile of Mood States scores for total mood disturbance, anger-hostility, confusion-bewilderment, and depression-dejection (P < .05) as a result of greater improvements in these psychological mood states for the LF diet compared with the LC diet. Working memory improved by 1 year (P < .001 for time), but speed of processing remained largely unchanged, with no effect of diet composition on either cognitive domain.
Conclusions Over 1 year, there was a favorable effect of an energy-restricted LF diet compared with an isocaloric LC diet on mood state and affect in overweight and obese individuals. Both diets had similar effects on working memory and speed of processing.
So far, the hypothesis that the brain "functions optimally on ketones" ie a low carb diet - can be tossed out from this research.
My other reading does suggest that low carb diets do have some possible value in certain disease states but that's not really the subject here.
There is also some evidence that low carb diets are a bad idea during brain development and for rats ...take that as you will.
Detrimental Effects of the Ketogenic Diet on Cognitive Function in Rats http://www.nature.com/pr/journal/v55/n3/full/pr200478a.html
I would not claim from that that low carbing is bad - but it does point out that when people tend to take religious positions around diet - low carb good anything else bad - fail to consider context.
I think for yourself and other argumentative members of MFP my stance has been clear from my first post.
A brain fuelled by ketones, lactate and glucose operates just as optimal as a brain fuelled mainly or solely on glucose.
Additionally ketones are beneficial for helping slow the onset of certain brain deterioration diseases
If you are unable to provide any studies which show that subjects who are ketone adapted do not have brain function to the same optimal ability then that shall remain my stance.0 -
However, eating more nutrient dense plants, and fewer heavily processed convenience foods may make it easier to stay within your allotted calories. Many folks find that reliance on heavily processed packaged convenience foods (typically high in sugar and fast burning carbs) make them hungrier.I love this thread. Anecdotal claims and allusion to studies that low carb and keto lead to the most optimal brain function, in posts filled with misspellings and grammatical errors. Never change, MFP.hello , im sure this topic has been hit 1000 times but i cant find info that fits me , im a 29 year old man 5ft 10 and 245lbs , obese , iv been doin my fitness pal for a while with some results but always gain it back , for the last 2 weeks iv been hitting my calorie goal and working out 5 days a week burning 4-500 calories a day but not losing weight , so this week i will be focusing on cutting carbs also , i have been consuming 250-300g of carbs and i want to cut to 100 is this a good number ? should i try less? also iv seen studys that say go low carb 5 days then moderate carb for 2 anyone try this?
OP, if you're losing weight and gaining it back, then the problem is consistency with a calorie deficit. Unless you have a medical issue you haven't shared with us, going low carb isn't going to solve anything if you aren't going to stay within your calorie goal. If you want to open your diary, we might be able to help you further.
I don't disagree with you on that point, which is why I can eat 2 donuts and be hungry an hour later - also why I rarely have donuts as anything other than a dessert if I eat them at all. But since we don't have any idea about what the OP is eating, his regular calorie intake, or his lifestyle, arguing about whether or not low carb is going to be helpful for him right now is kind of pointless, although I doubt that's going to stop anyone.0 -
Anyone can use google and find proof of anything. Try pubmedI think we all have to find what works for our bodies. Low carb works for me because I prefer the way I feel with a stable level of energy all day. I have even found I do not need to drink as much coffee or tea during the day. I also prefer low carb to migraines which I get when I eat a lot of carbs. I don't think it's the only way, but its definitely the right way for my body. I am low carb on the advice of several specialists.
I don't understand why so many people seem to be so anti-low carb. Here is another article I found doing a plain google search. This is from Psychology today and it discusses low carb from an evolutionary stand point.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201104/your-brain-ketones
That's why I initially used scholarly articles.
My point is that it is not the only way, but my brain definitely functions better low-carb than with a migraine. I'm not advocating for everyone to cut out all carbs. I am advocating to find out what works for your own body.
Many of you seem to think that low carb is bad no matter what. It's your way or no way at all.0 -
In to here (sic) about the studies and the studies of studies and counter studies on the Brain (sic).
Then I might mention that ketones are actually made by all on all days - that one does not need a ketogenic diet for ketone production, even someone on a high carb diet will be producing ketones in considerable quantities during the fasting sleep cycle.
So tennisdude, when you come back with evidence that ketosis helps brain function, consider the challenge that this doesn't necessitate low carbs to get those available. Context. Furthermore, there is evidence for rapid problem resolution on caffeine, nicotine, shunted short term oxygen deprivation, high Po^2, amphetamines, beta channel blockers... Etc. and yet some/most of these are a bad idea in excess or as long term use and certainly not part of a weight loss program. While low carb may make sense for some people - the whole "brain functions optimally" under x or w is going leave you under the rain with no umbrella. All wet.
Brb, gonna inject some acetone to get that ketone mind meld thing going.
It is unlikely the brain will use much or any ketones when it has an ample supply of glucose. Therefore it will likely not benefit from the positive affects ketones and lactate can have on brain function.
But clearly you are well informed in this area and know that already.
Even during longer term fasting glucose is produced by the liver in "ample" supplies to avoid hypoglycemia. So I'm not sure what you are trying to say as ketones and glucose are both used in the citric acid cycle of the brain based on substrate availability.
What I do know is that ketone bodies are incapable of maintaining or restoring normal cerebral function in the absence of glucose in the blood. This is just basic glucose crash physiology. Although ketones may partially replace glucose, they can't fully satisfy the cerebral energy needs in the absence of some glucose - you have a liver, it's one of the most basic functions to regulate plasma glucose. All these talks about ketosis and ketones as ideal fail at taking a look at the big picture.
Ketones are present in all humans on a daily basis in changing rates.
Glucose will be produced by the liver in the absence of dietary sources.
You can't live without either.
Who is saying you can live without either?
I don't think you have quite understood what I have said. I am not claiming the brain can function on Ketones alone - that is indeed impossible as parts of the brain can only be fuelled by glucose.
On a low carb or ketogentic diet the brain can function optimally on 30g approx of glucose (along with ketones and lactate) instead of the 120g approx. when fuelled (almost) solely by glucose!
Of course if you have actual studies(instead of opinion) on subjects who are keto adapted proving this incorrect - I would be happy to read them!
Look, you are stating that optimal brain function at 30g. It's your claim to back up. It's not up to me (or others) to prove the negative.
I'm just stating that if ketones have any possible role in protecting brain tissue, glucagon or insulin regulation, etc... they are already generally present in non-low dietary carbing individuals. If you are making claims about their importance for "optimal brain function" you are going to have to go further than staring they are useful, you actually need to demonstrate a test on humans in normal physiological conditions between low and high carbs (preferably double blind, cross-controlled). Frankly, I'm open, I haven't seen it yet in any of your posts.
I'm not making claims, so I'm not in need of posting studies.
Second, I'm also inviting you and others on the keto-bandwagon to consider that there are a variety of reasons why a low-carb diet is not the ideal solution for everyone. A simplistic approach (gotta get those ketones up) that doesn't take into consideration, the big picture.
What does this suggest to you? Based on your "optimal brain function on ketones"?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19664276
Study of the ketogenic agent AC-1202 in mild to moderate Alzheimer's disease: a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, multicenter trial.0 -
I would assume a few folks ended up here on their diet search. Some have tried and failed at low carb, therefore low carb is bad. Folks seem to equate their experience with objective reality. And right now, objective reality is: all whatever you want, "within your calories". Whether or not this reality is the long term depends on the individual.I think we all have to find what works for our bodies. Low carb works for me because I prefer the way I feel with a stable level of energy all day. I have even found I do not need to drink as much coffee or tea during the day. I also prefer low carb to migraines which I get when I eat a lot of carbs. I don't think it's the only way, but its definitely the right way for my body. I am low carb on the advice of several specialists.
I don't understand why so many people seem to be so anti-low carb. Here is another article I found doing a plain google search. This is from Psychology today and it discusses low carb from an evolutionary stand point.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201104/your-brain-ketones
And, because this is a calorie counting site, not a low carber site, the bulk of the members will be pro calorie counting.
I didn't while losing but I know I'm in the minority.
(I've also been told, repeatedly, that my approach is unsustainable.
) 0 -
Let's go look at some of the actual research on cognition and low fat or low carb diets....
Short term
http://ase.tufts.edu/psychology/spacelab/pubs/Atkins_Appetite_inpress.pdf
Apparently leads to memory impairment but less confusion and faster attention response with low carbing.To examine how a low-carbohydrate diet affects cognitive performance, women participated in one of two weight-loss diet regimens. Participants self-selected a low-carbohydrate (n=9) or a reduced-calorie balanced diet similar to that recommended by the American Dietetic Association (ADA diet) (n=10). Seventy-two hours before beginning their diets and then 48 h, 1, 2, and 3 weeks after starting, participants completed a battery of cognitive tasks assessing visuospatial memory, vigilance attention, memory span, a food-related paired-associates a food Stroop, and the Profile of Moods Scale (POMS) to assess subjective mood. Results showed that during complete withdrawal of dietary carbohydrate, low-carbohydrate dieters performed worse on memory-based tasks than ADA dieters. These impairments were ameliorated after reintroduction of carbohydrates. Low-carbohydrate dieters reported less confusion (POMS) and responded faster during an attention vigilance task (CPT) than ADA dieters. Hunger ratings did not differ between the two diet conditions. The present data show memory impairments during low-carbohydrate diets at a point when available glycogen stores would be at their lowest. A commonly held explanation based on preoccupation with food would not account for these findings. The results also suggest better vigilance attention and reduced self-reported confusion while on the low-carbohydrate diet, although not tied to a specific time point during the diet. Taken together the results suggest that weight-loss diet regimens differentially impact cognitive behavior.
Long term
http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1108558
No difference - actually losing weight helps cognitive function independent of low fat or low carb.Background Very low-carbohydrate (LC) diets are often used to promote weight loss, but the long-term effects on psychological function remain unknown.
Methods A total of 106 overweight and obese participants (mean [SE] age, 50.0 [0.8] years; mean [SE] body mass index [calculated as weight in kilograms divided by height in meters squared], 33.7 [0.4]) were randomly assigned either to an energy-restricted (approximately 1433-1672 kcal [to convert to kilojoules, multiply by 4.186]), planned isocaloric, very low-carbohydrate, high-fat (LC) diet or to a high-carbohydrate, low-fat (LF) diet for 1 year. Changes in body weight, psychological mood and well-being (Profile of Mood States, Beck Depression Inventory, and Spielberger State Anxiety Inventory scores), and cognitive functioning (working memory and speed of processing) were assessed.
Results By 1 year, the overall mean (SE) weight loss was 13.7 (1.8) kg, with no significant difference between groups (P = .26). Over the course of the study, there were significant time × diet interactions for Spielberger State Anxiety Inventory, Beck Depression Inventory, and Profile of Mood States scores for total mood disturbance, anger-hostility, confusion-bewilderment, and depression-dejection (P < .05) as a result of greater improvements in these psychological mood states for the LF diet compared with the LC diet. Working memory improved by 1 year (P < .001 for time), but speed of processing remained largely unchanged, with no effect of diet composition on either cognitive domain.
Conclusions Over 1 year, there was a favorable effect of an energy-restricted LF diet compared with an isocaloric LC diet on mood state and affect in overweight and obese individuals. Both diets had similar effects on working memory and speed of processing.
So far, the hypothesis that the brain "functions optimally on ketones" ie a low carb diet - can be tossed out from this research.
My other reading does suggest that low carb diets do have some possible value in certain disease states but that's not really the subject here.
There is also some evidence that low carb diets are a bad idea during brain development and for rats ...take that as you will.
Detrimental Effects of the Ketogenic Diet on Cognitive Function in Rats http://www.nature.com/pr/journal/v55/n3/full/pr200478a.html
I would not claim from that that low carbing is bad - but it does point out that when people tend to take religious positions around diet - low carb good anything else bad - fail to consider context.
I think for yourself and other argumentative members of MFP my stance has been clear from my first post.
A brain fuelled by ketones, lactate and glucose operates just as optimal as a brain fuelled mainly or solely on glucose.
Additionally ketones are beneficial for helping slow the onset of certain brain deterioration diseases
If you are unable to provide any studies which show that subjects who are ketone adapted do not have brain function to the same optimal ability then that shall remain my stance.
You're moving the goal post.
You stated "low carb diet the brain works at an optimal level!"
Optimal means best or most favorable versus other options. "Just as optimal as" is nonsense. You inferenced that low carb was better for brain function. It's not. Short term it's possibly worse depending which factor you want to focus on. Long term there is no significant cognitive difference. I'm not claiming it's worse for cognitive function - why would I?
As to the AC1202 study it shows that the patients generally got worse - independent of diet, less worse on the drug but this has nothing to do with a low carb diet. It was a drug induced process. It might be worth doing with a diet induced ketosis but it's non conclusive. Just like the study I posted that shows low carb diets are bad for brain development, non conclusive in humans. And certainly not evidence that supports the diet in someone that doesn't have the disease. Low carb might be disease preventive but the links you've provided don't show that.
There might be research out there on the carbohydrate role and preventive nature of one type or another type of diet but frankly everything I've read to date suggests that losing weight and remaining physically active are more important in this disease, even that evidence is uncertain. Again context and big picture.
Edit:spelling0 -
This content has been removed.
-
Yes it is quite comical
Watch and observe how many time he actually tries to do that, change what he's arguing to a different point when he doesn't have a way out. Pretty damn funny.Let's go look at some of the actual research on cognition and low fat or low carb diets....
Short term
http://ase.tufts.edu/psychology/spacelab/pubs/Atkins_Appetite_inpress.pdf
Apparently leads to memory impairment but less confusion and faster attention response with low carbing.To examine how a low-carbohydrate diet affects cognitive performance, women participated in one of two weight-loss diet regimens. Participants self-selected a low-carbohydrate (n=9) or a reduced-calorie balanced diet similar to that recommended by the American Dietetic Association (ADA diet) (n=10). Seventy-two hours before beginning their diets and then 48 h, 1, 2, and 3 weeks after starting, participants completed a battery of cognitive tasks assessing visuospatial memory, vigilance attention, memory span, a food-related paired-associates a food Stroop, and the Profile of Moods Scale (POMS) to assess subjective mood. Results showed that during complete withdrawal of dietary carbohydrate, low-carbohydrate dieters performed worse on memory-based tasks than ADA dieters. These impairments were ameliorated after reintroduction of carbohydrates. Low-carbohydrate dieters reported less confusion (POMS) and responded faster during an attention vigilance task (CPT) than ADA dieters. Hunger ratings did not differ between the two diet conditions. The present data show memory impairments during low-carbohydrate diets at a point when available glycogen stores would be at their lowest. A commonly held explanation based on preoccupation with food would not account for these findings. The results also suggest better vigilance attention and reduced self-reported confusion while on the low-carbohydrate diet, although not tied to a specific time point during the diet. Taken together the results suggest that weight-loss diet regimens differentially impact cognitive behavior.
Long term
http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1108558
No difference - actually losing weight helps cognitive function independent of low fat or low carb.Background Very low-carbohydrate (LC) diets are often used to promote weight loss, but the long-term effects on psychological function remain unknown.
Methods A total of 106 overweight and obese participants (mean [SE] age, 50.0 [0.8] years; mean [SE] body mass index [calculated as weight in kilograms divided by height in meters squared], 33.7 [0.4]) were randomly assigned either to an energy-restricted (approximately 1433-1672 kcal [to convert to kilojoules, multiply by 4.186]), planned isocaloric, very low-carbohydrate, high-fat (LC) diet or to a high-carbohydrate, low-fat (LF) diet for 1 year. Changes in body weight, psychological mood and well-being (Profile of Mood States, Beck Depression Inventory, and Spielberger State Anxiety Inventory scores), and cognitive functioning (working memory and speed of processing) were assessed.
Results By 1 year, the overall mean (SE) weight loss was 13.7 (1.8) kg, with no significant difference between groups (P = .26). Over the course of the study, there were significant time × diet interactions for Spielberger State Anxiety Inventory, Beck Depression Inventory, and Profile of Mood States scores for total mood disturbance, anger-hostility, confusion-bewilderment, and depression-dejection (P < .05) as a result of greater improvements in these psychological mood states for the LF diet compared with the LC diet. Working memory improved by 1 year (P < .001 for time), but speed of processing remained largely unchanged, with no effect of diet composition on either cognitive domain.
Conclusions Over 1 year, there was a favorable effect of an energy-restricted LF diet compared with an isocaloric LC diet on mood state and affect in overweight and obese individuals. Both diets had similar effects on working memory and speed of processing.
So far, the hypothesis that the brain "functions optimally on ketones" ie a low carb diet - can be tossed out from this research.
My other reading does suggest that low carb diets do have some possible value in certain disease states but that's not really the subject here.
There is also some evidence that low carb diets are a bad idea during brain development and for rats ...take that as you will.
Detrimental Effects of the Ketogenic Diet on Cognitive Function in Rats http://www.nature.com/pr/journal/v55/n3/full/pr200478a.html
I would not claim from that that low carbing is bad - but it does point out that when people tend to take religious positions around diet - low carb good anything else bad - fail to consider context.
I think for yourself and other argumentative members of MFP my stance has been clear from my first post.
A brain fuelled by ketones, lactate and glucose operates just as optimal as a brain fuelled mainly or solely on glucose.
Additionally ketones are beneficial for helping slow the onset of certain brain deterioration diseases
If you are unable to provide any studies which show that subjects who are ketone adapted do not have brain function to the same optimal ability then that shall remain my stance.
Your moving the goal post.
You stated "low carb diet the brain works at an optimal level!"
Optimal means best or most favorable versus other options. "Just as optimal as" is nonsense. You inferenced that low carb was better for brain function. It's not. Short term it's possibly worse depending which factor you want to focus on. Long term there is no significant cognitive difference. I'm not claiming it's worse for cognitive function - why would I?
As to the AC1202 study it shows that the patients generally got worse - independent of diet, less worse on the drug but this has nothing to do with a low carb diet. It was a drug induced process. It might be worth doing with a diet induced ketosis but it's non conclusive. Just like the study I posted that shows low carb diets are bad for brain development, non conclusive in humans. And certainly not evidence that supports the diet in someone that doesn't have the disease. Low carb might be disease preventive but the links you've provided don't show that.
There might be research out there on the carbohydrate role and preventive nature of one type or another type of diet but frankly everything I've read to date suggests that losing weight and remaining physically active are more important in this disease, even that evidence is uncertain. Again context and big picture.0 -
Anyone can use google and find proof of anything. Try pubmedI think we all have to find what works for our bodies. Low carb works for me because I prefer the way I feel with a stable level of energy all day. I have even found I do not need to drink as much coffee or tea during the day. I also prefer low carb to migraines which I get when I eat a lot of carbs. I don't think it's the only way, but its definitely the right way for my body. I am low carb on the advice of several specialists.
I don't understand why so many people seem to be so anti-low carb. Here is another article I found doing a plain google search. This is from Psychology today and it discusses low carb from an evolutionary stand point.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201104/your-brain-ketones
That's why I initially used scholarly articles.
My point is that it is not the only way, but my brain definitely functions better low-carb than with a migraine. I'm not advocating for everyone to cut out all carbs. I am advocating to find out what works for your own body.
Many of you seem to think that low carb is bad no matter what. It's your way or no way at all.
Not seeing anyone here state low carb is bad "no matter what". Or even "it's your way or no way".
We have one person saying low carb is the optimal diet and a bunch of others saying maybe not and give us a little proof.
Stick to whatever diet works for you - try different things as much as you like but making claims ANY diet x is optimal for y require supported evidence. There is a study out there that showed a 50% improvement in epilepsy seizures on low-carb. That's great - except when you look into it - those that didn't have a response of seizure reduction tended to drop out and there was no measure of spontaneous drop in seizures in this group. I'm just critical of evangelicalism towards any specific diets when context and goals aren't taken into consideration.
As to low carb - I've tried it, it was quiet useful for what what I wanted to do - try a low cal, low carb, protein sparing, very short term experiment. But I'm not selling that as the be all, end all of diets. It would be a Very Bad Idea™ for many people.0 -
Anyone can use google and find proof of anything. Try pubmedI think we all have to find what works for our bodies. Low carb works for me because I prefer the way I feel with a stable level of energy all day. I have even found I do not need to drink as much coffee or tea during the day. I also prefer low carb to migraines which I get when I eat a lot of carbs. I don't think it's the only way, but its definitely the right way for my body. I am low carb on the advice of several specialists.
I don't understand why so many people seem to be so anti-low carb. Here is another article I found doing a plain google search. This is from Psychology today and it discusses low carb from an evolutionary stand point.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201104/your-brain-ketones
That's why I initially used scholarly articles.
My point is that it is not the only way, but my brain definitely functions better low-carb than with a migraine. I'm not advocating for everyone to cut out all carbs. I am advocating to find out what works for your own body.
Many of you seem to think that low carb is bad no matter what. It's your way or no way at all.
Not seeing anyone here state low carb is bad "no matter what". Or even "it's your way or no way".
We have one person saying low carb is the optimal diet and a bunch of others saying maybe not and give us a little proof.
Stick to whatever diet works for you - try different things as much as you like but making claims ANY diet x is optimal for y require supported evidence. There is a study out there that showed a 50% improvement in epilepsy seizures on low-carb. That's great - except when you look into it - those that didn't have a response of seizure reduction tended to drop out and there was no measure of spontaneous drop in seizures in this group. I'm just critical of evangelicalism towards any specific diets when context and goals aren't taken into consideration.
As to low carb - I've tried it, it was quiet useful for what what I wanted to do - try a low cal, low carb, protein sparing, very short term experiment. But I'm not selling that as the be all, end all of diets. It would be a Very Bad Idea™ for many people.
To be fair, the very first response in this thread stated:Additionally, studies show that low-carb diets affect mental abilities; you're not as sharp without carbs. My job is sitting at a desk thinking all day. I need the brain power that carbs provide.
So it's not just one person stating that it's optimal vs. everyone else asking for proof. The discussion started with someone conclusively stating that low carb diets will impair your mentality abilities, making you less sharp and suggesting you will struggle at work. While some people countered a bit too overzealously by stating it was "optimal" for brain function, they were responding to a post, not starting the discussion.0 -
Anyone can use google and find proof of anything. Try pubmedI think we all have to find what works for our bodies. Low carb works for me because I prefer the way I feel with a stable level of energy all day. I have even found I do not need to drink as much coffee or tea during the day. I also prefer low carb to migraines which I get when I eat a lot of carbs. I don't think it's the only way, but its definitely the right way for my body. I am low carb on the advice of several specialists.
I don't understand why so many people seem to be so anti-low carb. Here is another article I found doing a plain google search. This is from Psychology today and it discusses low carb from an evolutionary stand point.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201104/your-brain-ketones
That's why I initially used scholarly articles.
My point is that it is not the only way, but my brain definitely functions better low-carb than with a migraine. I'm not advocating for everyone to cut out all carbs. I am advocating to find out what works for your own body.
Many of you seem to think that low carb is bad no matter what. It's your way or no way at all.
Not seeing anyone here state low carb is bad "no matter what". Or even "it's your way or no way".
We have one person saying low carb is the optimal diet and a bunch of others saying maybe not and give us a little proof.
Stick to whatever diet works for you - try different things as much as you like but making claims ANY diet x is optimal for y require supported evidence. There is a study out there that showed a 50% improvement in epilepsy seizures on low-carb. That's great - except when you look into it - those that didn't have a response of seizure reduction tended to drop out and there was no measure of spontaneous drop in seizures in this group. I'm just critical of evangelicalism towards any specific diets when context and goals aren't taken into consideration.
As to low carb - I've tried it, it was quiet useful for what what I wanted to do - try a low cal, low carb, protein sparing, very short term experiment. But I'm not selling that as the be all, end all of diets. It would be a Very Bad Idea™ for many people.
To be fair, the very first response in this thread stated:Additionally, studies show that low-carb diets affect mental abilities; you're not as sharp without carbs. My job is sitting at a desk thinking all day. I need the brain power that carbs provide.
So it's not just one person stating that it's optimal vs. everyone else asking for proof. The discussion started with someone conclusively stating that low carb diets will impair your mentality abilities, making you less sharp and suggesting you will struggle at work. While some people countered a bit too overzealously by stating it was "optimal" for brain function, they were responding to a post, not starting the discussion.
Ok, that's fair.0 -
Would you mind pointing out one or two of these studies? I really would like to see them, having done a fair amount of reading on ketogenic diets and never having come across one.
Apparently high carb diets do very little for one's ability to read forum rules of conduct!
I have linked below several studies showing the benefits of lactate and ketones in brain function.
As a poster above has mentioned, studies showing negative brain function on a low carb diet were likely conducted on subjects only just coming away from a medium to high carb diet.
Subjects who have adapted to either a low carb diet or even a ketogenic diet would demonstrate the same optimally fuelled brains on a mixture of mainly ketones, lactate and glucose, as those on a high carb diet fuelling their brains on mainly glucose.
As you have no doubt done exhaustive research into this field, surely you will have studies proving this incorrect! I would of course love to see them.
Again apologies for the spelling mistake, I was very tired when I posted yesterday and I had a few too many carbs!
http://phys.org/news/2010-11-lactate-shuttle-fuel-brain.html
http://www.jneurosci.org/content/31/20/7477
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14769487
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19664276
There are many other studies out there - I'm sure you've seen them.
My apologies for the snarky comment on spelling. It was inappropriate, whatever the TOS says.
No I haven't seen them, that is why I asked. And I haven't made any assertions; I found your statement curious and wanted to see the research myself.
That said, I have found most studies relating diet to cognitive function - whatever they set out to test - get shot down for methodological weaknesses of one sort or another by those with a different viewpoint. It is fiendishly difficult to design a study of that sort that is large enough, long enough and well controlled enough for it to be otherwise.0 -
Ah, ok, that makes sense. I sure hope it's sustainable brcause I feel so much better !
I would assume a few folks ended up here on their diet search. Some have tried and failed at low carb, therefore low carb is bad. Folks seem to equate their experience with objective reality. And right now, objective reality is: all whatever you want, "within your calories". Whether or not this reality is the long term depends on the individual.I think we all have to find what works for our bodies. Low carb works for me because I prefer the way I feel with a stable level of energy all day. I have even found I do not need to drink as much coffee or tea during the day. I also prefer low carb to migraines which I get when I eat a lot of carbs. I don't think it's the only way, but its definitely the right way for my body. I am low carb on the advice of several specialists.
I don't understand why so many people seem to be so anti-low carb. Here is another article I found doing a plain google search. This is from Psychology today and it discusses low carb from an evolutionary stand point.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201104/your-brain-ketones
And, because this is a calorie counting site, not a low carber site, the bulk of the members will be pro calorie counting.
I didn't while losing but I know I'm in the minority.
(I've also been told, repeatedly, that my approach is unsustainable. )0
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