Conflicting Advice from Seemingly Knowledgeable People
_lyndseybrooke_
Posts: 2,561 Member
"You can't build muscle while eating at a deficit."
^ It makes sense, and I believe it to be true.
"Throw the scale out. The number on the scale is no indication of your progress. Take measurements. Even if you're not losing pounds, you might be losing inches."
^ Advice I've given before and try to take myself when I see no losses.
How can both of these be true, though? If it's true that one cannot build muscle while eating at a deficit, then how is the scale not a good indicator of your progress? How are your measurements changing when the scale isn't budging if, in fact, you're not putting on any lean muscle? If you're not gaining muscle and the scale isn't moving, then you're not losing fat, which means you're doing something wrong - right?
Sure, there are temporary fluctuations in weight due to water retention and all that, but going several weeks without seeing a loss certainly can't be blamed on water retention. So, instead of going with the default, "weight loss is not linear" argument, which I also believe is true, let's try to logically explain why the same people are giving these two pieces of advice when they seemingly contradict with one another.
[Let's assume that the person truly IS doing what they've always done. They're weighing/measuring everything, logging every single day, keeping with their TDEE - % calorie goal, etc.]
^ It makes sense, and I believe it to be true.
"Throw the scale out. The number on the scale is no indication of your progress. Take measurements. Even if you're not losing pounds, you might be losing inches."
^ Advice I've given before and try to take myself when I see no losses.
How can both of these be true, though? If it's true that one cannot build muscle while eating at a deficit, then how is the scale not a good indicator of your progress? How are your measurements changing when the scale isn't budging if, in fact, you're not putting on any lean muscle? If you're not gaining muscle and the scale isn't moving, then you're not losing fat, which means you're doing something wrong - right?
Sure, there are temporary fluctuations in weight due to water retention and all that, but going several weeks without seeing a loss certainly can't be blamed on water retention. So, instead of going with the default, "weight loss is not linear" argument, which I also believe is true, let's try to logically explain why the same people are giving these two pieces of advice when they seemingly contradict with one another.
[Let's assume that the person truly IS doing what they've always done. They're weighing/measuring everything, logging every single day, keeping with their TDEE - % calorie goal, etc.]
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Replies
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Partly because the statements are broadly but not universally true. The problem is they are worded so vaguely.
You cannot build significant additional muscle without a calorie surplus. However your body actually breaks down and builds new muscle all the time (hopefully making it more efficient). So depending on your condition at the start of the process it is actually possible to build some muscle while in caloric deficit.0 -
/end thread.Partly because the statements are broadly but not universally true. The problem is they are worded so vaguely.
You cannot build significant additional muscle without a calorie surplus. However your body actually breaks down and builds new muscle all the time (hopefully making it more efficient). So depending on your condition at the start of the process it is actually possible to build some muscle while in caloric deficit.
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I think it can. I think when someone starts a new, hard exercise regimen they can retain water for months. I did.but going several weeks without seeing a loss certainly can't be blamed on water retention.
There is also this 'effect' referred to in the link below, which I've seen reported on diet forums for a dozen years and also experience it myself, so I believe there's something going on with it.
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/of-whooshes-and-squishy-fat.html0 -
I am at a 7000 calorie a week defecit but eat a lot of protien.
1. My biceps are much bigger now and my pecs are much more defined
2. Arm curl bar has gone up from 70 to 90 lbs for a set of 10
3. Fly machine has gone from 100 to 150 for a set of 10
4. Tricept pushdown from 50 to 60 for a set of 10
5. I can run fair distances now without getting out of breath.
I'm stronger now.............think I have gained some muscle.0 -
Muscle efficiency also requires more glycogen storage which is directly linked to weight retention even though one is in deficit.
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
I am at a 7000 calorie a week defecit but eat a lot of protien.
1. My biceps are much bigger now and my pecs are much more defined
2. Arm curl bar has gone up from 70 to 90 lbs for a set of 10
3. Fly machine has gone from 100 to 150 for a set of 10
4. Tricept pushdown from 50 to 60 for a set of 10
5. I can run fair distances now without getting out of breath.
I'm stronger now.............think I have gained some muscle.
Amazing progress.
But I think you are confusing strength and endurance gains with mass gains. They are not the same thing.
However you are significantly over weight or new to exercise you may be making small gains.
Keep it going!0 -
I am at a 7000 calorie a week defecit but eat a lot of protien.
1. My biceps are much bigger now and my pecs are much more defined
2. Arm curl bar has gone up from 70 to 90 lbs for a set of 10
3. Fly machine has gone from 100 to 150 for a set of 10
4. Tricept pushdown from 50 to 60 for a set of 10
5. I can run fair distances now without getting out of breath.
I'm stronger now.............think I have gained some muscle.
Amazing progress.
But I think you are confusing strength and endurance gains with mass gains. They are not the same thing.
However you are significantly over weight or new to exercise you may be making small gains.
Keep it going!
Thanks bud. If my Body Fat % calculator and my calculations are accurate I believe I have dropped 59 lbs of fat and gained 8 lbs of muscle in just under 6 months.0 -
Partly because the statements are broadly but not universally true. The problem is they are worded so vaguely.
You cannot build significant additional muscle without a calorie surplus. However your body actually breaks down and builds new muscle all the time (hopefully making it more efficient). So depending on your condition at the start of the process it is actually possible to build some muscle while in caloric deficit.
This...0 -
I am at a 7000 calorie a week defecit but eat a lot of protien.
1. My biceps are much bigger now and my pecs are much more defined
2. Arm curl bar has gone up from 70 to 90 lbs for a set of 10
3. Fly machine has gone from 100 to 150 for a set of 10
4. Tricept pushdown from 50 to 60 for a set of 10
5. I can run fair distances now without getting out of breath.
I'm stronger now.............think I have gained some muscle.
Amazing progress.
But I think you are confusing strength and endurance gains with mass gains. They are not the same thing.
However you are significantly over weight or new to exercise you may be making small gains.
Keep it going!
Thanks bud. If my Body Fat % calculator and my calculations are accurate I believe I have dropped 59 lbs of fat and gained 8 lbs of muscle in just under 6 months.
I really didn't mean to sound like an - - - .
I meant IF you are significantly overweight. :-/0 -
Your calculator is not accurate. What you are describing isn't possible without using a boatload of PED's. Gaining 8 lbs of muscle while eating in a surplus is a pretty decent goal for 6 months. Gaining 8 lbs of muscle while at the same time losing almost 60 lbs is impossible. What kind of device are you using to track body fat?
Thanks bud. If my Body Fat % calculator and my calculations are accurate I believe I have dropped 59 lbs of fat and gained 8 lbs of muscle in just under 6 months.0 -
Both can be true because fat and muscle aren't the only variables in your body weight. Water is a very large component of that.
Over long periods of time the scale IS a good indicator of progress while dieting. Over short time periods it is not simply because of bodyweight fluctuations due to water retention.
When people give the advice "throw out the scale" it is usually given to people who are freaking out because they weigh 2 pounds more than they did yesterday. At that point they are clearly causing themselves emotional strife for no good reason and the options are either to try to explain it and hope they get over the psychological fear response of seeing their weight go up or alternatively just suggest that they ignore the scale and go off different measures of progress such as a tape measurer.
Now if someone gives the advice "Throw out your scale" to someone who says over the period of two months their scale weight hasn't changed while dieting then yeah they are giving bad advice in my opinion.0 -
Both can be true because fat and muscle aren't the only variables in your body weight. Water is a very large component of that.
Over long periods of time the scale IS a good indicator of progress while dieting. Over short time periods it is not simply because of bodyweight fluctuations due to water retention.
When people give the advice "throw out the scale" it is usually given to people who are freaking out because they weigh 2 pounds more than they did yesterday. At that point they are clearly causing themselves emotional strife for no good reason and the options are either to try to explain it and hope they get over the psychological fear response of seeing their weight go up or alternatively just suggest that they ignore the scale and go off different measures of progress such as a tape measurer.
this this this this this this this
Seriously, this.0 -
Also, if you aren't losing pounds, then you probably aren't in a deficit. Which means that your calorie consumption might be wobbling above and below maintenance, which is the "recomp" zone.
Recomping isn't a bad place to be in, if you're in a normal weight range.0 -
What I take the statement: "throw out the scale" to mean is...stop obsessing about a # that really may not mean anything.
Using a scale can be employed as 1 tool to help measure your progress, BUT it seems like a lot of people get "stuck" thinking that the scale is the end-all-be-all, ONLY way to measure progress.0 -
People like to talk in generalisations and absolute terms. There are many groups of people that are well known to be able to build muscle mass in a deficit. It's not a secret!"You can't build muscle while eating at a deficit."
^ It makes sense, and I believe it to be true.
It's difficult to build muscle in a deficit.
Many people cannot build muscle in a deficit.
It's very easy to sabotage any chance of building muscle in a deficit
All those are true but it's far from an absolute or impossible to add muscle mass.0 -
Also, how easily your body builds muscle is genetically determined. Some people build new muscle easily and quickly, others hardly at all. THose who build easily can probably make significant gains while eating at a deficit; the rest of us, not so much.
"A landmark study by Hubal used 585 male and female human subjects and showed that twelve weeks of progressive dynamic exercise resulted in a shockingly wide range of responses.
The worst responders lost 2% of their muscle cross-sectional area and didn't gain any strength whatsoever. The best responders increased muscle cross-sectional area by 59% and increased their 1RM strength by 250%. Keep in mind these individuals were subjected to the exact same training protocol.
The Hubal study isn't the only study showing these types of results. Petrella showed that 16 weeks of progressive dynamic exercise involving 66 human subjects failed to yield any measurable hypertrophy in 26% of subjects."
"A different article by Bamman using the same researchers involving the exact same experiment showed that out of 66 subjects, the top 17 responders experienced a 58% gain in cross-sectional area, the middle 32 responders gained 28% cross-sectional area, and the bottom 17 responders didn't gain in cross-sectional area."
Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2005 Jun;37(6):964-72.
J Appl Physiol (1985). 2008 Jun;104(6):1736-42.
Physiol Genomics. 2013 Jun 17;45(12):499-507. .0 -
Children deprived of protein grow and develop muscle. While I lost weight, my arm muscles got bigger. Unsurprising, as they'd never been used much.
I don't know about the scale thing, but I've heard a lot people say it and have no reason to believe they made it up. Until I hear something that 100% convinces me that they're wrong, I'm on the fence.
I don't worry one little iota about what the fitness gurus preach. I've heard those guys in person. They're often wrong and focus on silly things that make no difference. I heard a couple talking once and I thought, "I have probably forgotten more about muscle contraction than these two yahoos, put together, ever learned." They still had a lot less fat and a lot more muscle.
It's not the theories that burn fat and build muscle. It's the lifting. 0 -
What's your point?Children deprived of protein grow and develop muscle.
Children (to use your example) without adequate protein will develop less muscle than they should.
Are you trying to imply that merely because they grow muscle at all, that this refutes something?
No one disputes newbie gains.While I lost weight, my arm muscles got bigger. Unsurprising, as they'd never been used much.I don't worry one little iota about what the fitness gurus preach. I've heard those guys in person. They're often wrong and focus on silly things that make no difference. I heard a couple talking once and I thought, "I have probably forgotten more about muscle contraction than these two yahoos, put together, ever learned." They still had a lot less fat and a lot more muscle.
And yet you're the one on a weightloss forum. Makes sense.0 -
i think its really a combination of all the factors the OP would like to dismiss.
A little off on your logging of exercise and food so your percieved defecit is inaccurate combined with water retention, and perhaps a number of other less obvious biological reasons that would account for your wieght not decreasing as body fat is burned.
I understand why you would want to eliminate all the 'X factors' to arrive at the true cause, but i think its all those varibles that are indeed the real reason.
perhaps the changes are to small to show up on the scale? may also be an indication that you simply don't have much fat left to loose0 -
I think many who read here don't listen to 'fitness gurus'. Well, I listen often but I usually roll my eyes.
And yet you're the one on a weightloss forum. Makes sense.I don't worry one little iota about what the fitness gurus preach. I've heard those guys in person. They're often wrong and focus on silly things that make no difference. I heard a couple talking once and I thought, "I have probably forgotten more about muscle contraction than these two yahoos, put together, ever learned." They still had a lot less fat and a lot more muscle. 0 -
I think many who read here don't listen to 'fitness gurus'. Well, I listen often but I usually roll my eyes.
And yet you're the one on a weightloss forum. Makes sense.I don't worry one little iota about what the fitness gurus preach. I've heard those guys in person. They're often wrong and focus on silly things that make no difference. I heard a couple talking once and I thought, "I have probably forgotten more about muscle contraction than these two yahoos, put together, ever learned." They still had a lot less fat and a lot more muscle.
Of course, but that's a loaded term.
The example used, however, was guys who didn't know what they were talking about, despite having "a lot less fat and a lot more muscle." I guess they must have been a couple of those "naturally thin" people I read about so often on here.
And, of course, no example of what they said was used. Let's just disparage some gym guys.
The fact of the matter is that the average in-shape person knows more than the average fat person about fitness, and if you're fat and know better...well, that's even worse, isn't it?0 -
Your calculator is not accurate. What you are describing isn't possible without using a boatload of PED's. Gaining 8 lbs of muscle while eating in a surplus is a pretty decent goal for 6 months. Gaining 8 lbs of muscle while at the same time losing almost 60 lbs is impossible. What kind of device are you using to track body fat?
Thanks bud. If my Body Fat % calculator and my calculations are accurate I believe I have dropped 59 lbs of fat and gained 8 lbs of muscle in just under 6 months.
Just one of those bathroom scale/Body Fat Monitor's (Electrodes on the bottom). I assumed the muscle percentage (neglecting water percentages) but noting that when i started out my monitor told me I was at 270 lbs and 46.5% Body Fat (125.5 lbs of fat) and my current of 219.5 lbs and 32% (70 lbs of fat).....opps that would mean 55.5 lbs of fat loss and therefore 5 lbs of muscle gain in 6 months (Sorry I originally said 7)
Maybe it is or maybe it isn't right, I am eating a lot of protien and there is no doubt that I am stronger, much better definition in my chest and my biceps and triceps are definately bigger........regardless I am feeling great and like you Vismal I plan to focus on the muscle gains once I get to my goal weight.0 -
I am at a 7000 calorie a week defecit but eat a lot of protien.
1. My biceps are much bigger now and my pecs are much more defined
2. Arm curl bar has gone up from 70 to 90 lbs for a set of 10
3. Fly machine has gone from 100 to 150 for a set of 10
4. Tricept pushdown from 50 to 60 for a set of 10
5. I can run fair distances now without getting out of breath.
I'm stronger now.............think I have gained some muscle.
Amazing progress.
But I think you are confusing strength and endurance gains with mass gains. They are not the same thing.
However you are significantly over weight or new to exercise you may be making small gains.
Keep it going!
Thanks bud. If my Body Fat % calculator and my calculations are accurate I believe I have dropped 59 lbs of fat and gained 8 lbs of muscle in just under 6 months.
I really didn't mean to sound like an - - - .
I meant IF you are significantly overweight. :-/
No worries you didnt' sound like an azz (not too much anyways....LOL). There is no doubt that I was significantly overweight and still am.........for now 0 -
Maybe it is or maybe it isn't right, I am eating a lot of protien and there is no doubt that I am stronger, much better definition in my chest and my biceps and triceps are definately bigger........regardless I am feeling great and like you Vismal I plan to focus on the muscle gains once I get to my goal weight.
Really that is all that matters. I think everyone knows that you can build some muscle in a deficit (noob gains, returning athletes, yada yada), but the real question is how much? I don't think anyone really knows that answer. I don't buy into the notion that others that don't fall into the categories of noob gains or returning athletes can't gain muscle on a deficit (mainly because I have seen it happen before, and have been watching it happen recently), but how much muscle is unknown and probably varies from individual to individual. I do think that no matter what, everyone will reach a point where they won't gain anymore muscle in a deficit.0 -
Not to be argumentative but I think that belief is how we wind up with people like Jillian Michaels and Gwyneth Paltrow, neither with any real education in the field, seen as diet/fitness gurus.The fact of the matter is that the average in-shape person knows more than the average fat person about fitness, and if you're fat and know better...well, that's even worse, isn't it?0 -
Stated like that, they are both true/false/incorrect (choose one) and yet remain excellent advice.
Context. It matters.
"You can't build muscle on a deficit." It's sorta true. Except even someone dieting will break that deficit when they eat. For the few hours after a meal that you are digesting, you aren't in a deficit. What that phrase, borrowed from bodybuilders, means is that one can't build optimal amounts of muscle on a deficit. You can build some, especially as a newbie or overweight person, especially if the deficit is small. Building muscle on a large cut is more difficult, requires intensive training and may lead to injury. And it's not the best strategy. If one want to build significant mass, it's on a bulking program that the best results will be reached. For someone trying to lose weight, it's sort of a non-sequitur challenge to "I making so many gainz". One isn't. You might be gaining a little bit of muscle but not significant and not long term, on a deficit.
Weighing daily thing. Really has nothing to do with the above. Weight fluctuates massively for a variety of reasons that include water retention from diet, exercise, illness to changes in weight from hormones, undigested food, etc... Seeing small increases may be emotionally difficult for some people. They shouldn't be weighing themselves if it helps to stop. But data is data - if you have no emotional attachment to weighing yourself, daily is fine.
Context.0 -
Stated like that, they are both true/false/incorrect (choose one) and yet remain excellent advice.
Context. It matters.
"You can't build muscle on a deficit." It's sorta true. Except even someone dieting will break that deficit when they eat. For the few hours after a meal that you are digesting, you aren't in a deficit. What that phrase, borrowed from bodybuilders, means is that one can't build optimal amounts of muscle on a deficit. You can build some, especially as a newbie or overweight person, especially if the deficit is small. Building muscle on a large cut is more difficult, requires intensive training and may lead to injury. And it's not the best strategy. If one want to build significant mass, it's on a bulking program that the best results will be reached. For someone trying to lose weight, it's sort of a non-sequitur challenge to "I making so many gainz". One isn't. You might be gaining a little bit of muscle but not significant and not long term, on a deficit.
Weighing daily thing. Really has nothing to do with the above. Weight fluctuates massively for a variety of reasons that include water retention from diet, exercise, illness to changes in weight from hormones, undigested food, etc... Seeing small increases may be emotionally difficult for some people. They shouldn't be weighing themselves if it helps to stop. But data is data - if you have no emotional attachment to weighing yourself, daily is fine.
Context.
^^basically this.
Also, you can go quite a while without scale loss but with fat loss due to water retention if you change up/start exercising. It can last up to about 6 weeks with some people.
The other thing that people confuse...muscle =/= LBM.0 -
I am at a 7000 calorie a week defecit but eat a lot of protien.
1. My biceps are much bigger now and my pecs are much more defined
2. Arm curl bar has gone up from 70 to 90 lbs for a set of 10
3. Fly machine has gone from 100 to 150 for a set of 10
4. Tricept pushdown from 50 to 60 for a set of 10
5. I can run fair distances now without getting out of breath.
I'm stronger now.............think I have gained some muscle.
Amazing progress.
But I think you are confusing strength and endurance gains with mass gains. They are not the same thing.
However you are significantly over weight or new to exercise you may be making small gains.
Keep it going!
Thanks bud. If my Body Fat % calculator and my calculations are accurate I believe I have dropped 59 lbs of fat and gained 8 lbs of muscle in just under 6 months.
I really didn't mean to sound like an - - - .
I meant IF you are significantly overweight. :-/
No worries you didnt' sound like an azz (not too much anyways....LOL). There is no doubt that I was significantly overweight and still am.........for now
As has already been mentioned strength (or more precisely, how much weight you can lift) =/= muscle gain. Also, BIAs are very inaccurate for measuring body fat. However, based on your size, especially if you were new to lifting or detrained, there is no reason to believe that you could not have gained 5lb muscle over 6 months, even at a deficit. It is very reasonable, depending on context. Age, gender and genetics also play a large role.0 -
Your calculator is not accurate. What you are describing isn't possible without using a boatload of PED's. Gaining 8 lbs of muscle while eating in a surplus is a pretty decent goal for 6 months. Gaining 8 lbs of muscle while at the same time losing almost 60 lbs is impossible. What kind of device are you using to track body fat?
Thanks bud. If my Body Fat % calculator and my calculations are accurate I believe I have dropped 59 lbs of fat and gained 8 lbs of muscle in just under 6 months.
It really depends:
http://muscleevo.net/calorie-deficit/#.VAlvEPldWSo
However, again, LBM =/= only muscle, so glycogen/water retention will come into play.0 -
Per the scale, while weight training, you're so prone to retain water, the scale doesn't always move, but you do lose inches. Per the muscle, most important, is we're retaining more muscle than if no strength training were involved. (Plus getting stronger).0
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